Pirates Kill Americans, Are Captured.

[nismaratwork]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/22/somalia.us.yacht/index.html?hpt=C1

CNN) -- A round-the-world boating adventure ended tragically Tuesday for four Americans, whom pirates shot to death after capturing their yacht in the Indian Ocean last week, U.S. officials said.

The 58-foot vessel, named the Quest, was being shadowed by the military after pirates captured the ship off the coast of Oman on Friday. Officials had said earlier Tuesday it was less than two days from the Somali coast.

Ship owners Jean and Scott Adam and Phyllis Macay and Bob Riggle were found shot after U.S. forces boarded the vessel about 1 a.m. ET, officials said.

The forces responded after a rocket-propelled grenade was fired at a U.S. Navy ship about 600 yards away -- and missed -- and the sound of gunfire could be heard on board the Quest, U.S. Navy Vice Adm. Mark Fox told reporters.



Pastor prays for captured couple

How pirates operate

Doing business the pirate way RELATED TOPICS
Pirates
Somalia
"Despite immediate steps to provide life-saving care, all four hostages ultimately died of their wounds," U.S. Central Command said.

The incident took place as negotiations involving the FBI were under way for the hostages' release, Fox said. Two pirates had boarded a U.S. Navy ship Monday for the negotiations, he said. He told reporters he had no information on details of the negotiations or whether a ransom had been offered.

Two pirates were found dead on board the Quest, he said. In the process of clearing the vessel, U.S. forces killed two others, one with a knife, Fox said. Thirteen others were captured and detained along with the other two already on board the U.S. Navy ship. Nineteen pirates were involved altogether, he said.

The Adams were from Marina del Rey, California, Fox said, and Macay and Riggle were from Seattle.

The 15 detained pirates were being held together on a U.S. warship, Fox said, and "we will go through the appropriate process to bring them to a judicial process and hold them accountable for their activities."

Walk the Planck scale to hell.

Nasty business, and I wonder where this takes us now?

 

[zomgwtf]

What I don't understand is why the pirates would kill the hostages or show any hostility towards the American Navy vessel?

It doesn't add up to me.

 

[nismaratwork]

What I don't understand is why the pirates would kill the hostages or show any hostility towards the American Navy vessel?

It doesn't add up to me.

I don't understand either.

 

[waht]

It could have been an act of desperation. At some point the pirates figured out they had no way to get out of the situation in light of the fact that a Navy vessel was following them all the way.

 

[nismaratwork]

It could have been an act of desperation. At some point the pirates figured out they had no way to get out of the situation in light of the fact that a Navy vessel was following them all the way.

Hmmm... or maybe just panic fire.

By the accounts coming out it seems Navy SEALs attempted a rescue, but the hostages had been mortally wounded before they could be saved... not dead, but wounded. They died of those wounds however.

I have to say, it seems to me that they just turned a prison sentence into a death sentence.

 

[CheckMate]

What happened is this :

Pirates had hostages, realized that Navy Seals were on the way, panic fired and left the hostages on verge of death.

 

[nismaratwork]

What happened is this :

Pirates had hostages, realized that Navy Seals were on the way, panic fired and left the hostages on verge of death.

That could be, but the report is that shots were heard, and THEN the SEAL team was deployed. If that's the case, it may be that internal tensions, or an escape attempt prompted the killing.


Either way... everyone invovled is either dead, or as good as dead now. We're going to have to deploy drones at this point I think, and be damned with the loss of life. Piracy doesn't stop unless you make it unprofitable, and history has shown one sure way of doing that: death on sight.

 

[WhoWee]

This post will more than likely be judged harshly, but I see two problems here.

First is the ill-conceived business practice (insurance related) not to arm the security forces on commercial vessels - ridiculous given the documented risk. Next is the decision by (these) private citizens to sail this 58 foot yacht through these very dangerous waters. The value of such a vessel is in excess of $100,000 without a payload. Their decision resulted in (their own) deaths and risked the lives of several military persons - needlessly.

 

[Astronuc]

This post will more than likely be judged harshly, but I see two problems here.

First is the ill-conceived business practice (insurance related) not to arm the security forces on commercial vessels - ridiculous given the documented risk. Next is the decision by (these) private citizens to sail this 58 foot yacht through these very dangerous waters. The value of such a vessel is in excess of $100,000 without a payload. Their decision resulted in (their own) deaths and risked the lives of several military persons - needlessly.

People shouldn't venture outside the borders of their nation? Those folks were apparently in international waters far from Somalia. Essentially, any place on the high seas is at risk.

The Adams, Macay and Riggle departed Feb. 15 from Mumbai, India, and were headed to Salalah, Oman, when the pirates hijacked the Quest on Friday.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-02-22-pirates-hostages_N.htm

They handn't even gotten near Somalia.

 

[dlgoff]

...We're going to have to deploy drones at this point I think, and be damned with the loss of life. Piracy doesn't stop unless you make it unprofitable, and history has shown one sure way of doing that: death on sight.

And I promised you I wouldn't post here in the Politics & World Affairs forums. (Personal note you all)

Anyway, I'm surprised they didn't blow the dang thing out of the water long before this had to happen.

 

[WhoWee]

People shouldn't venture outside the borders of their nation? Those folks were apparently in international waters far from Somalia. Essentially, any place on the high seas is at risk.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-02-22-pirates-hostages_N.htm

They handn't even gotten near Somalia.

The world is a very dangerous place - especially for nice people.

 

[russ_watters]

The navy needs to learn to be much less efficient in these cases: far too many pirates survived this.

People shouldn't venture outside the borders of their nation?

Rules to live by: Don't swim right after eating, don't cross the street without looking both ways, don't drink and drive, don't sail a half-million dollar yacht into pirate-infested waters.

Those folks were apparently in international waters far from Somalia. Essentially, any place on the high seas is at risk.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-02-22-pirates-hostages_N.htm

They handn't even gotten near Somalia.

The only part of that that is really true is that they were in international waters. They were "south of Oman" when hijacked, which puts them at most about 700 miles from Somalia and at least 400 (their destination was 400). That's well within the known radius of Somali pirate attacks. It isn't even close to true that "any place on the high seas it at risk": the vast majority of the worlds' piracy happens within a thousand miles of Somalia. Sailing in the Atlantic or Pacific oceans presents virtually no risk at all. It was just plain stupid to be sailing in that region of the world. Whether it is worth it to try and save them, I'm not sure, but the effort cost us many millions of dollars.

 

[nismaratwork]

And I promised you I wouldn't post here in the Politics & World Affairs forums. (Personal note you all)

Anyway, I'm surprised they didn't blow the dang thing out of the water long before this had to happen.

Indeed... and as I said... please DO post here!


@Russ_Waters: Again, we agree. Piracy needs to be the death-sentence it was, because the fundamentals haven't changed. Here, we need violent and terrifying deterrence.

 

[WhoWee]

The navy needs to learn to be much less efficient in these cases: far too many pirates survived this. Rules to live by: Don't swim right after eating, don't cross the street without looking both ways, don't drink and drive, don't sail a half-million dollar yacht into pirate-infested waters. The only part of that that is really true is that they were in international waters. They were "south of Oman" when hijacked, which puts them at most about 700 miles from Somalia and at least 400 (their destination was 400). That's well within the known radius of Somali pirate attacks. It isn't even close to true that "any place on the high seas it at risk": the vast majority of the worlds' piracy happens within a thousand miles of Somalia. Sailing in the Atlantic or Pacific oceans presents virtually no risk at all. It was just plain stupid to be sailing in that region of the world. Whether it is worth it to try and save them, I'm not sure, but the effort cost us many millions of dollars.

This point was discussed in the other "pirate" thread a few months ago, but why aren't "pirates" identified by the time they are 50 miles from shore - let alone 400 or 700 miles out?

 

[Proton Soup]

they picked a really bad time to go sightseeing in a really dangerous place. USN is a little pre-occupied atm.

also saw some military guys being interviewed on CNN. they said the pirates wouldn't "negotiate", kept asking for money. jebus guys, just say that we don't negotiate. don't parrot stupid crap like that.

 

[rootX]

they picked a really bad time to go sightseeing in a really dangerous place. USN is a little pre-occupied atm.

also saw some military guys being interviewed on CNN. they said the pirates wouldn't "negotiate", kept asking for money. jebus guys, just say that we don't negotiate. don't parrot stupid crap like that.

I guess they were on the mission to convert pirates to Christianity :rofl: They were sailing across the world distributing bibles to the locals.

 

[russ_watters]

This point was discussed in the other "pirate" thread a few months ago, but why aren't "pirates" identified by the time they are 50 miles from shore - let alone 400 or 700 miles out?

We don't have a large enough military presence there.

 

[Astronuc]

The navy needs to learn to be much less efficient in these cases: far too many pirates survived this. Rules to live by: Don't swim right after eating, don't cross the street without looking both ways, don't drink and drive, don't sail a half-million dollar yacht into pirate-infested waters. The only part of that that is really true is that they were in international waters. They were "south of Oman" when hijacked, which puts them at most about 700 miles from Somalia and at least 400 (their destination was 400). That's well within the known radius of Somali pirate attacks. It isn't even close to true that "any place on the high seas it at risk": the vast majority of the worlds' piracy happens within a thousand miles of Somalia. Sailing in the Atlantic or Pacific oceans presents virtually no risk at all. It was just plain stupid to be sailing in that region of the world. Whether it is worth it to try and save them, I'm not sure, but the effort cost us many millions of dollars.

Mumbai is due east and slightly north of their destination -Salalah, Oman - which is on the south coast of Oman. I would expect that they were north of Socotra Island (Soqotra, Suquṭra, or سُقُطْرَى), which is part of Yemen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salalah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socotra

I would imagine that they expected to be safe not being near Somilia, as much as a person from San Antonio or Austin would feel safe from crime in New Orleans, or someone in Philadelphia feeling safe from crime in Indianaoplis.

I have to wonder though what research they did for their journey.

I remember hearing about a hijacking of a private yacht of the coast of Brazil a while ago. And some of the seas around Philippines and Indonesia, particularly the Moluccan straits are risky.

 

[nismaratwork]

I guess they were on the mission to convert pirates to Christianity :rofl: They were sailing across the world distributing bibles to the locals.

Really?... well... you take your risks, but piracy has always been a global problem. When you can spend a few tens of thousands of USD and net a 9 million USD oil tanker, well... that's a pretty strong impetus, especially in Somalia. If those ships are armed and start shooting when there's no IFF response...


Russ: If we simply required IFF past a certain point we could setup a drone network supported by radar dirgibles and submarine forces. I would rather see a mix of that and heavily armed ships or a convoy system. It has to be brutal however... piracy has to mean you die at sea and are buried at sea.


Remember, the point is not to stop all piracy directly, it's to make anything that even looks like piracy the riskiest profession on the planet. A study of the history of piracy indicates you can either change the circumstances of pirates, or kill them. We tried the former, now it's time for the latter. Will innocent people die? Yes.

 

[WhoWee]

Really?... well... you take your risks, but piracy has always been a global problem. When you can spend a few tens of thousands of USD and net a 9 million USD oil tanker, well... that's a pretty strong impetus, especially in Somalia. If those ships are armed and start shooting when there's no IFF response...


Russ: If we simply required IFF past a certain point we could setup a drone network supported by radar dirgibles and submarine forces. I would rather see a mix of that and heavily armed ships or a convoy system. It has to be brutal however... piracy has to mean you die at sea and are buried at sea.


Remember, the point is not to stop all piracy directly, it's to make anything that even looks like piracy the riskiest profession on the planet. A study of the history of piracy indicates you can either change the circumstances of pirates, or kill them. We tried the former, now it's time for the latter. Will innocent people die? Yes.

I've posted this before - pirates move pretty slow and a single fighter jet moves pretty fast. It doesn't seem that difficult a task to set up a "911" (for lack of a better description) for any ship that sees a threat closing in > sinking of the pirate craft would be inevitable. For very large ships (travel in convoys and) - why not let an attack helicopter ride along - same thing - if you're a group of guys on a small boat and approach a convoy > you will be blown out of the water.

 

[Astronuc]

Friends of the Americans killed by pirates say they were careful. Apparently not careful enough - especially if they separated from a group with whom they were traveling.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110223/ap_on_re_us/us_piracy_americans

 

[Proton Soup]

about taking on the pirates, it's not our job. unless... it involves ships flying under US flags. and when a US ship has been attacked, the USN has been decisive. if they weren't flying the flag, they should have been. as for those other ships in the region, if they want US protections, then they should register with us, and not the cheapest registry they can find.

 

[nismaratwork]

about taking on the pirates, it's not our job. unless... it involves ships flying under US flags. and when a US ship has been attacked, the USN has been decisive. if they weren't flying the flag, they should have been. as for those other ships in the region, if they want US protections, then they should register with us, and not the cheapest registry they can find.

I'm suggesting a regional coalition including Europe, Russia, and ideally China. If not, then each flag defends itself, as it has been in the past.

Piracy needs to be a lethal offense, regardless of age, circumstance, or hope of trial. No friendly signal?... bye.

 

[russ_watters]

I would imagine that they expected to be safe not being near Somilia, as much as a person from San Antonio or Austin would feel safe from crime in New Orleans, or someone in Philadelphia feeling safe from crime in Indianaoplis.

If they believed that, then they were essentially by definition, terminally naive (but I don't believe that: see below). Based on this map, it appears to me the pirates conducted dozens of raids in 2010 that were closer to India than Somalia! http://www.icc-ccs.org/home/piracy-reporting-centre/imb-live-piracy-map-2010/piracy-map-2010

The furthest of them was about 1100 miles from the tip of Somalia, or about 400 miles from Mumbai

I have to wonder though what research they did for their journey.

In fact, they initially joined the group they left in Mumbia because of that risk. And they were headed to the Med the short way - a route they had already taken once before. They knew exactly what they were doing.

On the trip in which they were hijacked, the Adams planned to travel across the Indian Ocean from their temporary dock in Phuket, Thailand, and then head up the Red Sea and through the Mediterranean to the Greek islands.

Friends in California said Scott Adam, 70, had previously discussed the dangers of piracy when navigating the Arabian and Red seas. Adam had considered shipping the boat to avoid the dangers of the trip but decided instead to join a rally of yachts heading to the same location, they said.

The couple, however, apparently decided to break off from the Blue Water Rally, which organized and supported the group of boats headed toward the Mediterranean.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/sc-dc-0223-pirates-deaths-20110222,0,6836331.story?track=rss

I remember hearing about a hijacking of a private yacht of the coast of Brazil a while ago. And some of the seas around Philippines and Indonesia, particularly the Moluccan straits are risky.

See the map I linked. Your odds of meeting a pirate are a couple of orders of magnitude better in the Indian Ocean/Arabian Sea than in the entire western hemisphere combined.

 

[Phrak]

Pleasure Cruise the Somali Coast. http://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/pleasure-cruise-like-no-other/"

 

[mugaliens]

about taking on the pirates, it's not our job. unless... it involves ships flying under US flags. and when a US ship has been attacked, the USN has been decisive. if they weren't flying the flag, they should have been. as for those other ships in the region, if they want US protections, then they should register with us, and not the cheapest registry they can find.

If I'm aboard a ship, and pirates attempt to board, you can bet that if I have means of repelling illegal boarders, I'll use those means to repell illegal boarders.

The U.S. Navy cannot afford to keep 360' cruisers on station to defend 60' sailboats of US registry. If one happens to be in the area, terrific, as it'll make for some good real-world training for the crew. Don't expect the Navy to send a cruiser 1200 miles to one's rescue, however.

 

[dlgoff]

Funny. The Spike TV channel had a program on last night about the U.S. Navy catching pirates (a couple years old). Sure is a big ocean out there.

 

[nismaratwork]

If I'm aboard a ship, and pirates attempt to board, you can bet that if I have means of repelling illegal boarders, I'll use those means to repell illegal boarders.

The U.S. Navy cannot afford to keep 360' cruisers on station to defend 60' sailboats of US registry. If one happens to be in the area, terrific, as it'll make for some good real-world training for the crew. Don't expect the Navy to send a cruiser 1200 miles to one's rescue, however.

If you have any rifle (assault, long, hell have a PSG-1!) would you open fire on a crew with an RPG, maybe a .50 cal, and more Kalashnikovs than can comfortably be imagined? Sounds like suicide unless you're part of a group, and in your case you benefit from training. Still, sniping on water is HARD, so you're losing means of attrition at a distance; you also lose the range of your assault rifle.

You're right about the navy however, but we could put in a request to contractors to design an armed drone, specializing in automated tracking in the region, and then under human control, firing on anyone suspicious who doesn't respond to any form of IFF, even optical-semaphore.

We don't need to stop them all, just make it a bad investment.

 

[WhoWee]

What is a reasonable distance from the shore for fishing - what distance is suspect - what distance is nonsense? Given the speed a fishing boat travels and aerial photos - it shouldn't be that difficult to categorize this way - should it? If the reasonable distance is 100 - 200 miles (?) - a great distance in a little boat - smile, wave and avoid these folks. They are trying to eat. At 300 to 400 miles - a little suspicious (?) do fly overs and monitor movements? At distances beyond 500 miles - question them.

 

[nismaratwork]

What is a reasonable distance from the shore for fishing - what distance is suspect - what distance is nonsense? Given the speed a fishing boat travels and aerial photos - it shouldn't be that difficult to categorize this way - should it? If the reasonable distance is 100 - 200 miles (?) - a great distance in a little boat - smile, wave and avoid these folks. They are trying to eat. At 300 to 400 miles - a little suspicious (?) do fly overs and monitor movements? At distances beyond 500 miles - question them.

...And err on the side of sharing munitions with those who don't respond.

 

[WhoWee]

...And err on the side of sharing munitions with those who don't respond.

No need to waste munitions - bomb them with rocks.

 

[nismaratwork]

No need to waste munitions - bomb them with rocks.

We do, they're just pointy, made of depleted uranium, and come out of a vulcan cannon faster than most rocks...

(note, this won't be on any drone, for weight of course)

[PLAIN]http://www.deviantart.com/download/102105183/M61_Vulcan_Cannon_by_Mydin.jpg

 

[mugaliens]

If you have any rifle (assault, long, hell have a PSG-1!) would you open fire on a crew with an RPG, maybe a .50 cal, and more Kalashnikovs than can comfortably be imagined?

I've sailed the open seas (I've an open ocean skipper's license from the US Navy), though not around the world, and certainly not in those parts.

Would I open fire on a crew? That depends entirely upon what that "crew" was attempting to do. If it was a legitimate boarding party (any number of countries' customs or harbor masters), no issue. But those relationships are almost always establish, and almost always with the appropriate paperwork (including various electronic and physical stamps of approval).

I learned to sail back in high school, and continued ever since, obtaining various licenses wherever I could, whenever I could.

I'd been planning a post-retirement round-the-world cruise (smaller, open-ocean sailing yacht circa 40-50 ft) for myself and my family from 1999 to 2005. My ex nixed that in 2005 with her plans for divorce, so, ptueyeui, and the lawyers got most of our saved funds. BIG HINT - GO WITH A MEDIATOR. You might wind up $1,200 in the hole instead of $50,000 in the hole. Moving on...

...to Yes. If pirates (not valid flag parties) attempted to board my vessel, I'd unlever every single god-damned thing I had aboard to prevent their heinous unlawful activities from ever, period.

Sounds like suicide...

Oh, I dunno... I'm a pretty good shot with a long rifle out to about a mile...

...unless you're part of a group, and in your case you benefit from training

All the better. And if you've ever hung around these groups, you'll know most aren't taking this, er.., a four letter word meaning excrement, beginning with "s,"...

Lying down.

Still, sniping on water is HARD, so you're losing means of attrition at a distance; you also lose the range of your assault rifle.

So are they. So what. What's new. If I were to replan my trip today, I'd include whereabouts of the U.S. Navy, but I'd also plan to put into port a hell of a lot less than I'd originally planned on account of the pirate situation which has developed in the region.

You're right about the navy however, but we could put in a request to contractors to design an armed drone, specializing in automated tracking in the region, and then under human control, firing on anyone suspicious who doesn't respond to any form of IFF, even optical-semaphore.

We don't need to stop them all, just make it a bad investment.

Wow, nismaratwork. Let's microtag their vessel from the drone, while we're at it. An http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire" will absolutely decimate it's target.

Perhaps all we international sailors would need to arm ourselves with would be laser designators and a full suite of anti-jam communications to call in the troops where needed.

Folks, do any of you have any idea of what our Nation's Merchant Marine Academy stands for, what it's done throughout our history as a Union, and what it means to the continued commerce and integrity of our great nation?

Ok, sound's like sour cheese sauch to most of you, but WWI said otherwise, that everyone in the US joined together, then.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Would you don your red bandana too?

 

[mugaliens]

Would you don your red bandana too?

In San Fran it'd earn one a rapid butt-(unmentionable)

What, xxChrisxx, are you talking about with respect to flags on an international scale?

Please grow a brain. Your "flags" aren't shared around the world. Dah!