Portlandia has struck again: fluoride in water

[aquitaine]

I know this is a bit late but I'm catching up the news a bit. The vote to fluoridate the water supply had failed.

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — The mayor of Portland, Ore., has conceded defeat in an effort to add fluoride to the city's drinking water.

With more than 80 percent of the expected ballots counted late Tuesday night, the Multnomah County election website showed the fluoride proposal failing, 60 percent to 40 percent.

Mayor Charlie Hales supported fluoridation and said "the measure lost despite my own 'yes' vote.

"That's sure disappointing, but I accept the will of the voters," he said in a statement.

Fluoridation foes were delighted.

"We're very excited with how the numbers look," said Kellie Barnes with the anti-fluoride group Clean Water Portland.

Of course the main opposition was environmentalists, naturopaths, and others with reactionary "organic" agendas came out against "poisoning" our "pure" water. It's times like this that I'm embarrassed to live here.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

"I don't want chemicals in my water," Sarah Lazzaro said after voting Tuesday. "I know that there are really no known health risks with it, but there's a lot of things we find out later in life really do have health risks."

Imagine when Sarah finds out her own body is completely made up of chemicals. Oh the horror! :D

It's a good living when you're a dentist in Portland!

 

[jedishrfu]

This is sad. It follows the popular trend that science is bad and we reject whatever it recommends even if its been done before for decades in other communities.

 

[nsaspook]

Portland, where the rest of Oregon goes to laugh.

 

[Hepth]

I'm not sure I agree on adding F to the water supply. I know it has its benefits, but it also has negative long-term side effects http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21255877, and I think an educated public has the right to vote on what they decide is acceptable risk.

Unfortunately I have a strong inclination to believe that Portland is more of a "a little education can go a long way in the wrong direction" mindset.

 

[Cthugha]

I somewhat do not get the reason for putting fluoride into tab water. Sure, it works, but this is rather a sensible measure for developing countries. It should not be necessary in the US. Putting fluoride into water seems especially awkward as it is strictly speaking enforced medication. As the US typically value individual decisions, this seems just odd.

I do not buy all that "fluoride is oh so toxic"-stuff, but without doubt there is a very small minority hypersensitive to fluoride. These are somewhat screwed if fluoride is added to the water.

In other countries, it is quite typical to add fluoride to salt. That seems way more sensible as salt is very cheap and one can still pick an alternative not containing fluoride.

 

[edward]

With fluoride tooth pastes widely available is fluoridation of the entire water supply even necessary anymore? A lot of people are drinking bottled water.

Most surprising is the recent finding that poor children are drinking more and more bottled water.

http://www.minnpost.com/community-sketchbook/2011/06/why-do-poor-kids-drink-more-bottled-water

 

[aquitaine]

I'm not sure I agree on adding F to the water supply. I know it has its benefits, but it also has negative long-term side effects http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21255877, and I think an educated public has the right to vote on what they decide is acceptable risk.

Unfortunately I have a strong inclination to believe that Portland is more of a "a little education can go a long way in the wrong direction" mindset.

Has that study been replicated? Or does it stand alone? It's certainly against the existing consensus, so without additional studies to support it I wouldn't put much confidence in it.

One of the problems with Portland is that it's a major center of the New Age movement. Add to that the stranglehold radical environmentalism has on our political system and you end up with a reactionary obsession on being "natural" and "pure".

 

[jim hardy]

Do I recall correctly, that the push to fluoridate water came about because some tribe someplace that had unusually healthy teeth was found also to have naturally occurring fluoride in their drinking water source?

I too must then ask: does it make sense to fluoridate water that's used for doing laundry, washing cars and watering lawns?

My layman's two cents says:
1. Find out how much refined sugar was in that tribe's diet.
2. Put the fluoride where the teeth are: toothpaste , chewing gum and mouthwash.

oops - I must withdraw the 'washing cars' remark -
disclosure: back when I had a shiny new Lincoln Continental I washed it exclusively with Perrier water.

 

[OmCheeto]

With fluoride tooth pastes widely available is fluoridation of the entire water supply even necessary anymore?

Not in my opinion.

A lot of people are drinking bottled water.

Most surprising is the recent finding that poor children are drinking more and more bottled water.

http://www.minnpost.com/community-sketchbook/2011/06/why-do-poor-kids-drink-more-bottled-water

As a current and native Portlander, I can tell you that it is more complicated than just "fluoridation".

I would classify Portland's water supply as being nearly equivalent to bottled water. And after I run it through a carbon filter, I'm not able to distinguish it from bottled water. We had friends move to southern California back in the 70's, and they would request that we bring tap water down with us on our annual summer road trips.

Another complicating factor is the water bureau itself. Just a couple of years ago, if was found that the agency spent 4 million dollars on projects completely unrelated to water. A lot of us for this reason now view anything the water bureau does with suspicion.

Our rates quintupled when they forced the sewer system on us. Damn poop tax!

Adding fluoride to the water would have raised our rates, again.

Call me old fashioned, but I will always vote against fluoridation of our water supply.

If anyone doubts my comments on the quality of our water, then you should sample the water from one of these when you come to visit. They are all over the core of downtown.

Benson Bubbler​

In 1929, Simon Benson -- a local philanthropist and teetotaler -- donated $10,000 to have the initial fleet of 20 bubblers installed throughout the downtown area, in an effort to turn the public from beer to water. To date, there are 52 four-bowl fountains and 74 single-bowl versions.

Ref

Ha! Didn't work. :tongue: (Portland is rumored to now be the http://opt.traveloregon.com/Itineraries/Culinary-Wine/Beer-Capital-of-the-World.aspx)

--------------------------
ps. I use fluoridated toothpaste, but would probably not be interested in fluoridated beer. (hic!)

 

[aquitaine]

Another complicating factor is the water bureau itself. Just a couple of years ago, if was found that the agency spent 4 million dollars on projects completely unrelated to water. A lot of us for this reason now view anything the water bureau does with suspicion.

Our rates quintupled when they forced the sewer system on us. Damn poop tax!

Adding fluoride to the water would have raised our rates, again.

The rates didn't need to go up at all, the problem as you mentioned is that they deliberately overcharge to use the excess revenue as a slush fund. Is this still going on? If the water bureau is breaking the law then why isn't their leadership being lead away in handcuffs?

 

[Vanadium 50]

It's not that simple: the waterfolk would officially claim that everything they do is related in some way to their mandate, and it would then have to go before the courts.

Furthermore, Portland is a democracy. They could elect commissioners who don't do that. However, that would require voting for The Other Party, which people don't want to do. (And yes, I know that Portland elections are technically nonpartisan, but the commissioner in question is an officeholder with the majority party.)

 

[OmCheeto]

The rates didn't need to go up at all,

Really? How were they going to pay for the five million dollar facility? With dirt?

I just read that it costs Sacramento a million dollars a year to fluoridate their water. They supply 1/8 the population that we do. There are economies of scale of course, but that gives us a base cost.

Who was going to pay for that? Can you say; "ME!"

Rates didn't need to go up. Pfft!

the problem as you mentioned is that they deliberately overcharge to use the excess revenue as a slush fund. Is this still going on? If the water bureau is breaking the law then why isn't their leadership being lead away in handcuffs?

I don't know if it's still going on. But in my quest for an answer, I ran across this comment:

HELL NO! Keep our water clean! There's a reason why toothpaste tubes say to contact the POISON CONTROL CENTER if swallowed!

Ref

I didn't believe it, so I checked my tube of toothpaste.

It's true. Go check for yourself.

I also read this comment:

I think we are overlooking several simple facts. Children with chronic tooth decay don't drink water as their primary source of re-hydration. So the benefits of fluoride on water are moot. If you only drink sugary drinks like juice and soda your teeth will suffer. Spend the money on fluoride treatments directly on their teeth and let the adults continue to enjoy the 2nd cleanest water in the nation!

I know someone who lost half of his teeth by the time he was 30. He only drank Cola. And what teeth he does have left, are kind of disgusting. I drink only water. Oh and beer of course.

 

[Janus]

Imagine when Sarah finds out her own body is completely made up of chemicals. Oh the horror! :D

It's a good living when you're a dentist in Portland!

My wife, who until she just recently retired, was a dental assistant here in Portland, said that they could always tell when a new patient had moved here from somewhere else just from the better condition of their teeth.

 

[OmCheeto]

It's not that simple: the waterfolk would officially claim that everything they do is related in some way to their mandate, and it would then have to go before the courts.

Ask, and you shall receive:

Portland faces lawsuit over water utility spending and questionable projects

Judgment day is coming for the city of Portland and questionable projects that have shaky ties to water, sewer and stormwater rates.
A lawsuit that will be filed today asks a Multnomah County judge to declare that the city improperly spent millions of dollars in ratepayer money...

Furthermore, Portland is a democracy.

And a damn weird on at that, thank you very much.

They could elect commissioners who don't do that. However, that would require voting for The Other Party, which people don't want to do. (And yes, I know that Portland elections are technically nonpartisan, but the commissioner in question is an officeholder with the majority party.)

Our last mayor was of the "majority party", but decided against running for re-election. I seriously doubt he would have won if he had. He was an over-the-top greenie, IMHO. He screwed up the parking in front of my favorite Sushi bar with another stinking bike path. I never forgave him. The fact that he accidentally showed up at my 50th birthday party, and gave me a condolence hug, does not affect my opinion of him in the least.

What was that line from Lord of the Rings?

Do not come between the OmCheeto and his Sushi bar...

 

[OmCheeto]

My wife, who until she just recently retired, was a dental assistant here in Portland, said that they could always tell when a new patient had moved here from somewhere else just from the better condition of their teeth.

Oh yeah! Well, um, do you have to pump your own gas?

Yes, most of my teeth do have fillings, but this is just our "Left" coast way of keeping dentists and dental assistants employed.

I still have all my teeth, btw. Except for my four wisdom teeth. The navy required that they all be removed before they even popped through my gums. Something about being on a submarine, with only a Corpsman* on board.

---------------------
*Corpsman: an enlisted medical specialist of the United States Navy
Good god, I'd hate to see the etymology of that term...

Never mind: "Corps" and "corpse" both have the same ultimate origin in Latin "corpus" (body).

 

[russ_watters]

I would classify Portland's water supply as being nearly equivalent to bottled water.

Since a lot of bottled water is tapwater, that shouldn't be a surprising revelation!

 

[Office_Shredder]

Oh yeah! Well, um, do you have to pump your own gas?

Once again proving NJ is the best state in the union

 

[russ_watters]

Once again proving NJ is the best state in the union

How can a state where people don't even know how to pump gas be the best in the union?

 

[Integral]

​

Once again proving NJ is the best state in the union

There are 2 states in the Nation where you can't pump your own gas, Oregon is the other.

 

[nsaspook]

Not in my opinion.

As a current and native Portlander, I can tell you that it is more complicated than just "fluoridation".

I would classify Portland's water supply as being nearly equivalent to bottled water. And after I run it through a carbon filter, I'm not able to distinguish it from bottled water. We had friends move to southern California back in the 70's, and they would request that we bring tap water down with us on our annual summer road trips.

The Bull Run water in Portland is a national treasure. The good people of Portland are in a never ending battle to keep it pure. Only a few years ago the evil EPA wanted them to build a treatment plant for something that didn't even exist.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/11/portland_leaders_cheer_tentati.html

If you can defeat the EPA then defeating a simple chemical is child's play.

 

[Janus]

Oh yeah! Well, um, do you have to pump your own gas?

Well, um, no, as I do live in Portland. (if I want to pump my own gas I'd have to drive up to Vancouver)

Yes, most of my teeth do have fillings, but this is just our "Left" coast way of keeping dentists and dental assistants employed.

Oddly enough though, I'd bet that most dentists and Dental assistants in Portland voted for fluoride in the water.

I still have all my teeth, btw. Except for my four wisdom teeth. The navy required that they all be removed before they even popped through my gums. Something about being on a submarine, with only a Corpsman* on board.

So do I, including all four wisdom teeth.

---------------------
*Corpsman: an enlisted medical specialist of the United States Navy
Good god, I'd hate to see the etymology of that term...

Never mind: "Corps" and "corpse" both have the same ultimate origin in Latin "corpus" (body).

 

[Office_Shredder]

​

There are 2 states in the Nation where you can't pump your own gas, Oregon is the other.

And this thread is about how Oregon fails at basic dental health, so...

 

[OmCheeto]

Oddly enough though, I'd bet that most dentists and Dental assistants in Portland voted for fluoride in the water.

This is, as I mentioned, the "Left" coast.

Stinkin' wanna-be dental slackers...

They just want to get on the dole...

I mean really, what the hell would dentists, et al, do if they didn't have cavities to fill?

Fix pot-holes?

 

[OmCheeto]

Well, um, no, as I do live in Portland

I know that. You live under a bridge, about 4 miles from where I grew up. I used to ride my bicycle past there on the way to the river in the summer.

(if I want to pump my own gas I'd have to drive up to Vancouver

That reminds me. I'm late for an appointment in Vancouver.

No! Not a dental appointment! An appointment with the river.

um...

A river with no fluorides!

 

[edward]

I know that. You live under a bridge, about 4 miles from where I grew up. I used to ride my bicycle past there on the way to the river in the summer.

That reminds me. I'm late for an appointment in Vancouver.

No! Not a dental appointment! An appointment with the river.

um...

A river with no fluorides!

At least you have a river with water in it. I can take my dog for a walk in the river bed here in Tucson and watch the mutt chase lizards.

The Tucson City Water Department does not add fluoride to the water. Some occurs naturally along with a bit of arsenic. Tucson's water is a mix of ground water and Central Arizona Project water that they call "The Blend".

The city paid $$$millions$$$ to build a treatment plant for the CAP water, but they could never come up with anything that the people would drink. The treatment plant is now abandoned.

The CAP water is pumped 20 miles west of town and dumped onto the ground where it percolates down through the sand and into an aquifer. It is then pumped back out of the aquifer and back to Tucson where it is mixed with what is left in our natural underground aquifer.

According to the only link I could find the City has been trying to decide if they should add fluoride to the water since 1992.

 

[OmCheeto]

At least you have a river with water in it. ...

True. It would be cool if we could send you some. I ran the numbers last night on how much it would cost to pump our spare water down to Tucson. It came out to only 20 million dollars a year.

The only four constants were:
1. Area of Tucson
2. Difference in annual rainfall
3. The cost of a gallon of gas.
4. Elevation difference.

Anyways, I was trying to think how I could relate the news of today to this thread.
I guess it all boils down to control. Control of our resources. Control of what we consume.
The thread is about one group of people wanting to impose their opinion on others.

Today, it would appear, that the Feds, have once again, stuck it to us. We have lost control of how we see fit to do things:

http://www.koin.com/2013/06/02/city-will-cover-reservoirs/
Sunday, June 2, 2013

...

Year after year the city of Portland fought the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and its requirement to cover open drinking water reservoirs. The goal, according to the EPA, was to reduce the risk of exposure to contaminants. Portland appealed that decision in 2006 , 2009, 2011, 2012 and even earlier this year.

“The city said, ‘You know, it’s not a problem; we don’t have bad water here. Let’s not spend the money where it’s not needed,’” said the Portland mayor’s spokesperson, Dana Haynes. “The appeal was taken to the state level, taken to the federal level, taken to court, asked and answered.”

...

Freakin' nanny state. Who the hell is running Washington? Maybe the bureaucrats need term limits...

 

[OmCheeto]

Portland, where the rest of Oregon goes to laugh.

pfft!

Portlanders, laugh, most haughtily, at eht rest of Oregoon.

 

[Integral]

i am glad Portland is there. It stuffs a lot of people in a small area. Sure glad that those people are not living in the nice parts of the state.

 

[nsaspook]

i am glad Portland is there. It stuffs a lot of people in a small area. Sure glad that those people are not living in the nice parts of the state.

Portland reminds those of us that actually became adults during the hippie era how clownishly foolish and naive some of us were as children. I don't really mean that in a evil or bad way because I really love the place the one day a week I travel with the wife to the organic store to get my hipster refill.


Great Place for delicious food:
http://www.peoples.coop/

 

[edward]

My daughter lives in Portland. She has just enough hippie in her to love the old houses built in the 1920's on the NE side. For some reason most of Tucson's older housing just coincidentally happened to be in the Interstate 10 alignment.

Cover the reservoirs in Portland? The CAP runs 340 miles uphill and uncovered. There was a reservoir at the now defunct water treatment plant. A six foot water main broke and the water in the reservoir flooded out 20 homes that were below the plant.

The main was four years old, we should have expected it to break at any time.

 

[DiracPool]

My band played a gig in Gresham back in 2006, and some girl there wanted to be my "roadie". Good times that night...

 

[nsaspook]

The Portland reservoirs need to be covered.

http://www.nwcn.com/news/Man-urinates-in-Portlands-Mt-Tabor-reservoir-flush-to-cost-33K-124007264.html

 

[edward]

My band played a gig in Gresham back in 2006, and some girl there wanted to be my "roadie". Good times that night...

At least she didn't have to sleep under a bridge that night...or did she? To keep on topic did she use fluoride tooth paste?

 

[edward]

The Portland reservoirs need to be covered.

http://www.nwcn.com/news/Man-urinates-in-Portlands-Mt-Tabor-reservoir-flush-to-cost-33K-124007264.html

No Fluoride in the water? And apparently Portland has no chlorine either.