What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

[Pattonias]

I am forced to wonder... If these ships taking aid to Gaza were from the United States government instead of an organization, would they be permitted through without search?

 

[Werg22]

I see that my posts have been deleted. I guess I'm interfering in an otherwise perfect orgy. Slowly but surely, I can see the moderation culture of this forum. Peace.

 

[arildno]

Did they kill the activists by paintball? What am I missing?

Really? I never got the impression that peace was in Israel's interests, nor did I think they didn't realize it.

As for posters making silly irrelevancies as the above, they are hereby ignored.

 

[EnumaElish]

Of course.

I honestly want to know why you prefer to make a backhanded comment like this one.

As you are the champion of relevance, how is this line of comments relevant to this thread? How is that different from saying "you-know-who have been leeches on any society or geography they stuck themselves on"? I would oppose that statement and protest it exactly as I did your statement.

I understand why my previous post was deleted, but I don't understand why werg's was.

My personal philosophy is to ignore irrelevant posts -- but never a poster.

 

[Evo]

I honestly want to know why you prefer to make a backhanded comment like this one.

As you are the champion of relevance, how is this line of comments relevant to this thread? How is that different from saying "you-know-who have been leeches on any society or geography they stuck themselves on"? I would oppose that statement and protest it exactly as I did your statement.

I understand why my previous post was deleted, but I don't understand why werg's was.

My personal philosophy is to ignore irrelevant posts -- but never a poster.

Werg's post was deleted because they were previously warned it was trolling by another mentor, and they repeated it, and they were also sent a message when it was deleted. They know why.

Also, please try to address the content of a post and not attack the member.

 

[EnumaElish]

What I meant to say was "My personal philosophy is to ignore irrelevant posts -- but never a poster, even when I find it convenient to do so."

 

[arildno]

Perhaps somebody feels sympathy for the members of this mob in LA. Note in particular their message at 0:12

Personally, my sympathy goes to to the lone boy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I&feature=player_embedded

 

[EnumaElish]

Perhaps somebody feels sympathy for the members of this mob in LA. Note in particular their message at 0:12

Personally, my sympathy goes to to the lone boy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I&feature=player_embedded

Bless the kid. I wasn't in that mob. I see myself a muslim. So don't give me any of that.

 

[Werg22]

Perhaps somebody feels sympathy for the members of this mob in LA. Note in particular their message at 0:12

Personally, my sympathy goes to to the lone boy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I&feature=player_embedded

How exactly does this post fit into this thread? You are trying to appeal to ours emotions and incite sympathy towards Israel with an event completely removed from the parties involved in the matter at hand. You are insinuating that the contrast between this mob and the lone Israeli supporter has a bearing on who we should side with on this issue. Do you realize how dishonest this is?

 

[Evo]

How exactly does this post fit into this thread? You are trying to appeal to ours emotions and incite sympathy towards Israel with an event completely removed from the parties involved in the matter at hand. You are insinuating that the contrast between this mob and the lone Israeli supporter has a bearing on who we should side with on this issue. Do you realize how dishonest this is?

It's a demonstration of supporters of the illegal flotila.

 

[Werg22]

It's a demonstration of supporters of the illegal flotila.

Don't tell me arildno wasn't making a tacit remark by posting this.

 

[magpies]

I like how the one lady in the video screams at the boy... "you killed my family" as if the kid personally did it. The kid was pretty stupid for doing that tho imo. Protests are fairly lame imo anyhow.

 

[Werg22]

I like how the one lady in the video screams at the boy... "you killed my family" as if the kid personally did it. The kid was pretty stupid for doing that tho imo. Protests are fairly lame imo anyhow.

This video is full of funny moments. The guy with the Palestinian flag towards the end struggling for words to finally say "Germany... or whatever" made me chuckle. The journalist making a rebuttal to his claim against Israel's legitimacy by mentioning scripture and king Solomon is another.

 

[Evo]

These people don't even realize that the more they show their nastiness, the more normal people are turning against them.

 

[magpies]

I'm not sure about that evo from what I'v seen people tend to worship anyone whos nastie.

 

[Werg22]

I'm guessing he makes the same point that the makers of South Park, Salman Rushdie, Theo van Gogh and others would make. Hell man, I've seen less hatred when black people protest a "Klan" rally. I think his point is that there is an intimidation and media assault by a particular group that few others in history have managed.

That said, I'm not sure how that really relates to this issue, which is not just a matter of Islamic extremists, but also people who think peace can be won through deceptions and simply drowning out single voices.

Oh wait, that video DOES make that point.

I think the overarching issue is that the world condemned Israel's actions, as always, not because "if you're not a Zionist, you must be an anti-Semite", but because these movements are filled with ideological and religious lunatics.

This bull**** outrage over an attempt to break a blockade, the nature of these protests and how they rapidly become witch-hunts, and so forth.


Edited by Evo - Let's all keep this calm, please.

The video by itself makes no point at all. The title is "Jewish apathy towards counter-protesting, leaves 15-yr old "Daniel" to fight the lion's den", hardly something that is related to this discussion. arildno sets his post to invite us to choose a side between the mob and the boy. Why? Sure, the point you outlined is a very good one, and it might have been part of the purpose of his post, it's the extra innuendo that bothers me.

 

[Werg22]

I cannot speak for Arildno, I can only share what I took from the video as it relates to this discussion. I am not saying that you're wrong either, but to be fair, I think that Arildno has been clear for pages now that he indeed, sees there is a side to be chosen.

I agree, and he should have continued to make that point by using rational arguments to win our minds, rather he chooses to make an emotional appeal.

 

[Evo]

The video by itself makes no point at all. The title is "Jewish apathy towards counter-protesting, leaves 15-yr old "Daniel" to fight the lion's den", hardly something that is related to this discussion. arildno sets his post to invite us to choose a side between the mob and the boy. Why? Sure, the point you outlined is a very good one, and it might have been part of the purpose of his post, it's the extra innuendo that bothers me.

I agree the title is leading. I will see if I can find one without a title. Honestly, I didn't even read the title.

I agree, and he should have continued to make that point by using rational arguments to win our minds, rather he chooses to make an emotional appeal.

The thing is, IMO, the entire problem is Palestinians and their supporters creating an emotional uproar and blaming the wrong people to boot. If they had been a passive humanitarian shipment, they would have been lead to the correct port and the supplies delivered.

We now know that the "humanitarian shipment" was a disguise for the militant Free Gaza organization.

 

[OmCheeto]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26562617/" an appropriate naval delivery of humanitarian aid to a country beleaguered by a hostile power, despite military dominance of the hostile power in the surrounding waters.

Originally Posted by September 5, 2008

The flagship of the U.S. 6th Fleet in the Mediterranean, the USS Mount Whitney, arrived at the Georgian port of Poti on Friday with humanitarian supplies.

USS Mount Whitney in the Black Sea.

You guys need to stop stalking my myfacebookspace posts...

So if you were an Israeli upper mucky muck, how would you deal with the situation? How should the US deal with it?

I think a show of heavy handed compassion is in order.
25 May at 18:59

Now then, I say we get the 6th fleet involved, along with the Admiral Kuznetsov to float up to Tel Aviv a few days before the flotilla arrives, and load up about 10,000 residents. Have the two carriers escort the flotilla to Gaza, and have the volunteers unload all the supplies.

Whoever throws the first rock to break up the kumbayas, gets nuked. Deal?
26 May at 22:02

 

[Evo]

I will double check these facts later. It would appear that plenty of supplies are coming via Israel already.

Despite the maritime and land blockade, one should not rush to the judgment that Gaza is under siege. Every week, about 15,000 tons of humanitarian aid and other essential goods are transferred by Israel to the people of Gaza. Since January 2009, more than a million tons of food, medicine, and goods have been delivered to Gazans - about a ton for every woman, man and child.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Israel+actions+self+defence/3109496/story.html

 

[arildno]

As for those who want "rational arguments", they can start with the arguments I, and others, have made that:

1. THere is no international law by which Israel's blockade is illegal

2. That the boarding of a blockade runner is not only legal, but also obligatory, according the London Declaration (says that only effective blockades are acceptable) and the San Remo Manual.

3. That the crew of one the ships took upon themselves the "right to do violence", a right that usually only belongs to state structures, rather than private individuals.

4. That there is no humanitarian crisis at Gaza to speak of, and never has been.
Infant mortality, for example, is lower in Gaza&West Bank than in countries like Syria, Egypt, Turkey, China, and has been so for decades..

To put the Gazan Infant mortality rate (IMR) of 18.35 per 1000 in perspective, we might ALSO compare it to the IMR's of countries where we actually know that malnourishment is a significant problem:
IMR, per 1000:
Mali: 115.86
Chad: 98.69
Sudan: 82.43

Some other countries IMRs (remember Gaza at 18.35):
Brazil: 22.58
Bolivia: 44.66
Colombia: 17.37
Ecuador: 20.9
Guyana: 39.11
Paraguay: 24.68
Peru: 28.62
Suriname: 18.81
Venezuela: 21.54

Uruguay: 11.32
Argentina: 11.44
Chile: 7.71


Apart from the Uruguay, Chile and Argentina, I guess the whole of South AMerica is in a permanent humanitarian crisis? Hm?

All stats from the indexmundi website
5. It is also telling that the Hamas REFUSES to receive the humanitarian aid, http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n....217s-delivery-of-flotilla-supplies-2010-06-03.
Even more telling is that absolutely no leftist has bothered to condemn Hamas for REFUSING to receive humanitarian aid, which simply shows that leftists couldn't care less about humanitarian aid, either, as long as they can't bash Israel or the USA in the process as well.

 

[HossamCFD]

I have a question for any Muslims here, and that is one I've posed to an Egyptian pal of mine: "Allahu Akbar" literally means, "Allah The Greatest/Biggest". Not just "god/allah is great", but comparative. Isn't Islam monotheistic, and not monolatrist?

Allahu Akbar literally means Allah IS greater/greatest, not as you said Allah the greatest.

If it was Allah the greatest as you said, it would read in Arabic "Allahu Al Akbar".

The difference between them is that Allah the greatest would suggest other gods that are less great, which of course is contradictory with every thing in the message of islam. While Allah is greater/greatest emphasizes the meaning that Allah is greater than anything one encounters in life. That is why muslims say it in times of hardship, war, and when they see wonders in the creation. it is also the first phrase in the muslim Adhan (call for prayer) to emphasize that the prayer is more important that what they are busy with and they should leave it and go to pray.

Now if you know arabic you would probably have problems with that explanation arguing that there is no IS in Allahu Akbar, and you would be right. However, verb to be is not used in Arabic the same way it's used in English. In fact it is very often in Arabic that you have a whole phrase without any verb, something that is not allowed in English. to give you an example, the second phrase in the muslim call for prayer read "La Elaha Ela Allah" which is rightfully translated into English as "There IS no god but Allah". However, this phrase in Arabic does not contain an actual "IS", rather, a word by word translation would be "No God but Allah" which does not make a complete sentence in English, though it makes a perfect sentence in Arabic.

Sorry for the long post, I just assumed that you really are interested in an answer to that question. BTW, I am also Egyptian like that pal of yours.

 

[Phrak]

This has not been news, but a replay of a reoccurring theme. This has been going on, time after time after time... ad nauseum. It, apparently, was expected to have favorable propaganda value, or would not have been used. Islamic people, who have become engaged in the war to eliminate Jewish Israel, approach the task from a position of weakness in no different tactics than those used by Hanoi in Viet Nam. They are up against the power of the US government, or Israel would have ceased to exist long before this day.

These tactics is effective because people are plum-plucking-gullible--excuse the Sanskrit, as the first and most emotionally receptive news to come out is the only news to most, whether it be true or false. The intent, that should be obvious, was simply to vilify Israel, break the blockade by turning world opinion against Israel, and so facilitate the importation of missiles and arms to Gaza.

People are simple creatures to understand. Standing in the way of this understanding is only our resourcefulness in our ability to deceive each other. Dontchya think?

 

[arildno]

Another statistic I played a bit with compiling:

How do West Bank and Gaza compare with OIC members/countries with dominant Muslim population?

Here is the ranking list of 60 countries, IMR's per 1000 live births:

1. UAE: 7
2. Kuwait: 8.97
3. Saudi-Arabia: 11.57
4. Brunei: 12.27
5. Qatar: 12.66
6. Bahrain: 15.09
7. Malaysia: 15.87
8. WEST BANK: 15.96
9. Syria: 16.69
10. Oman: 16.88
11. Jordan: 17.38
12. GAZA: 18.35
13. Suriname: 18.81
14. Libya: 21.7
15. Lebanon: 21.82
16. Tunisia: 22.57
17. Uzbekistan: 23.43
18. Kazakhstan: 25.73
19. Turkey: 25.78
20. Egypt: 27.26
21. Algeria: 27.73
22. Maldives: 29.53
23. Morocco: 29.75
24. Indonesia: 29.97
25. Kyrgyzystan: 31.26
26. Iran: 35.78
27. Guyana: 39.11
28. Tajikistan: 41.03
29. Eritrea: 43.33
30. Iraq: 44.65
31. Turkmenistan: 45.36
32. Gabon: 51.78
33. Azerbaijan: 54.6
34. Mayotte: 56.29
35. Togo: 56.84
36. Djibouti: 58.33
37. Yemen: 58.4
38. Senegal: 58.94
39. Bangladesh: 59.02
40. Cameroon: 63.34
41. Mauretania: 63.42
42. Benin: 64.64
43. Uganda: 64.82
44. Guinea: 65.22
45. Comorros: 66.57
46. Pakistan: 67.36
47. Ivory Coast: 68.06
48. Gambia: 68.84
49. Western Sahara: 69.66
50. Sierra Leone: 81.86
51. Burkina Faso: 84.49
52. Nigeria: 94.35
53. Chad: 98.69
54. Guinea-Bissau: 99.82
55. Mozambique: 105.8
56. Somalia: 109.19
57. Mali: 115.86
58. Niger: 116.66
59. Afghanistan 153. 14

An 8th and 12th place for countries said to have been in a permanent humanitarian crisis for the last 60 years is quite surprising, isn't it?

Out of the first twelve, 7 countries are extremely rich oil states, with only Malaysia, Jordan, Syria of other economic status.

EDIT:
Forgot Sudan, should be at 51. place, with IMR 82.43

The data are from indexmundi, a website that primarily relies upon the CIA World Factbook for its numbers.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

This has not been news, but a replay of a reoccurring theme. This has been going on, time after time after time... ad nauseum. It, apparently, was expected to have favorable propaganda value, or would not have been used. Islamic people, who have become engaged in the war to eliminate Jewish Israel, approach the task from a position of weakness in no different tactics than those used by Hanoi in Viet Nam. They are up against the power of the US government, or Israel would have ceased to exist long before this day.

Well, Hanoi WAS pretty successfull against the US government, no?

 

[arildno]

The following statistic of Eastern Europe is also quite revealing:

1. Czech Republic: 3.79
2. Slovenia: 4.25
3. Croatia: 6.37
4. Belarus: 6.43
5. Lithuania: 6.47
6. Serbia: 6.75
7. Slovakia: 6.84
8. Estonia: 7.32
9. Hungary: 7.82
10. Latvia: 8.77
11. Macedonia: 9.01
12. Bosnia&Hercegovina: 9.1
13. Russia: 10.56
14. Moldova: 13.13
15. Georgia: 16.22
16. Bulgaria: 17.87
17. Albania: 18.62
18. Romania: 22.9

West Bank&Gaza is on the level of poor Eastern European countries in IMR statistics.

A much more interesting facet is, however, why extremely rich countries like Saudi-Arabia, Oman, Bahrain, UAE can't compete favourably with countries like the Czech Republic, Belarus and Serbia...

 

[HossamCFD]

Now that makes sense, thank you very much, and I appreciate the details. I did indeed want a real answer to that one.

You're most welcomed.

 

[arildno]

Arildno: In my experience, most Arab nations are genuinely afraid of the Palestinian diaspora. They are looked at as a sort of combination of how the USA sees illegal Mexican immigrants (a drain on society), and genuine fear of how they have become radical. Fair or unfair, the tools of an older generation of conflict have become too unstable in the minds of their supposed brothers to be accepted.
.

Established Muslim dynasties have always been afraid of armed, popularist, extremist groupings like the Kharijites, early Shias, Qarmatians, Assassins, Almoravids, Almohads, Wahhabis, Salafists and whatnot their names throughout history. With good reason, since an existing dynasty usually started out as such an extremist movement itself..

Such extremist movements is an endemic, recurring feature in the history of Islam, and nothing new occasioned by "oppression" from the Western world or Israel.

 

[russ_watters]

True these are examples of large, more powerful countries sniped at by drastically smaller ones. Israel is also fairly strong militarily, but it is vastly outnumbered by its foes in terms of population, who are within rock throwing distance, and who don't simply have some unheard grievance or seek religious independence, but publicly seek to destroy the state of Israel.

Those conditions necessarily require Israel to assume a more hair trigger defense posture than seen in the example states above, and in such a posture it should be unsurprising that we sometimes see Israeli Defense Forces respond with regrettable or excessive force, or even in ways against Israel's own best interest. Soldiers are not policemen.

I agree that the situation we are discussing is "bigger" than most - which is why we are talking about it!

 

[arildno]

Here is Netanyahu speaking of the flotilla event:

 

[russ_watters]

Turns out there is a lot more to this incident than meets the eye:

This latest attempt to breach the blockade differs significantly from the flotilla the Israeli troops intercepted on Monday, killing eight Turks and a Turkish-American after being set upon by a group of activists.

Nearly 700 activists had joined that operation, most of them aboard the lead boat from Turkey that was the scene of the violence. That boat, the Mavi Marmara, was sponsored by an Islamic aid group from Turkey, the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief. Israel outlawed the group, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, in 2008 because of alleged ties to Hamas. The group is not on the U.S. State Department list of terror organizations, however.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-06-04-gaza-blockade_N.htm

Israel pledged to halt a new attempt by pro-Palestinian groups to sail more ships into Gaza, and claimed some of the arrested activists carried weapons and large quantities of cash, raising questions about whether they were mercenaries.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10792731

I heard this a few days ago in a radio interview with an Israeli official, but it hasn't gotten much play in the print media. The potential that the event was staged by a terrorist organization doesn't surprise me much, but it highlights the stupidity of the activists that they could allow themselves to be used as patsies. That sort of thing is, unfortunately, not uncommon. My disdain for the "peace activists" aside, Israel knew who the people were before they boarded, and their presence validates the purpose of the blockade.

 

[arildno]

In Norway, 3 "activists" on Mari Marmara, two of whom lefties who huddled beneath the deck, and a Palestinian "refugee" who was on the deck all assert that there were no weapons they could see on the boat (perhaps a few rods, they conceded reluctantly).

The one on the deck says that only hands were used to push Israelis overboard (yeah, right).

What most incited them, however, was a so-called "racist" discrimination of prisoners, that whites where treated nicely while the "arabs" was oh-so-dreadfully handcuffed.

Couldn't possibly be a well justified discrimination based on who actually fought against the Israelis, or policy based on a rational expectation to who might become violent?

 

[arildno]

On her website, Caroline Glick has published the following article, originally from Jerusalem Post:
http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2010/06/israels-daunting-task.php

Here, she focuses on the shifts in international alliances over the years, particularly changes in US policy and, not the least, Erdogan's baneful influence in Turkey.

 

[russ_watters]

Thinking about this a litttle more:

Turns out there is a lot more to this incident than meets the eye: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-06-04-gaza-blockade_N.htm
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10792731

I heard this a few days ago in a radio interview with an Israeli official, but it hasn't gotten much play in the print media. The potential that the event was staged by a terrorist organization doesn't surprise me much, but it highlights the stupidity of the activists that they could allow themselves to be used as patsies. That sort of thing is, unfortunately, not uncommon.

...this characterization is unnecessarily/unreasonably deferential toward the "peace activists". The situation in Gaza is that a group of civilians live in an area controlled by a criminal/terroist organization. Regardless of how the situation came to be, the civilians are hostages. But by trying to help the hostages, you help the terrorists holding them. Whether it is their intent or not, the "peace activists" are aiding and abetting a terrorist organization.

The situation is [should be] very much like the one in Somalia, where delivering food meant an international military force delivering food directly to the people. Anything less is just playing into the hands of the terrorists.

Now I realize the "peace activists" don't see it this way, but there is no line at all between helping the trapped civilians and helping the terrorists, only a blurry spectrum of motivation. On one side of the spectrum you have these "peace activists", foolishly aiding the terrorists' cause. On the other side is Jane Fonda, who while she later claimed to have been manipulated, regarding some of her activities, nevertheless willingly participated in enemy propaganda activities.

 

[OmCheeto]

On her website, Caroline Glick has published the following article, originally from Jerusalem Post:
http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2010/06/israels-daunting-task.php

Here, she focuses on the shifts in international alliances over the years, particularly changes in US policy and, not the least, Erdogan's baneful influence in Turkey.

And she has a video!

Let's all sing along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FOGG_osOoVg&border=1&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FOGG_osOoVg&border=1&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>