Riots on the streets of London

[Tosh5457]

You are not an immigrant if you are descended from immigrants.

That depends on the country's policies. Descendants of immigrants can be considered immigrants if the law says so.

Please show some sort of reference to back up your claim, the vast majority of people I have seen on the streets around me are clearly British.

I think it's fair to say most on the riot are immigrants (or descendants). And what do you mean by people around you? Are you right in the middle of rioters?

 

[JesseC]

I've never suggested that the reasons should'nt be tackled. What I've pointed out is that these aren't the direct result of a specific event, rather a specific event allowed a mass action of crime to occur.

I agree with you there.

Everyone is facing similar social and political problems...

That I definitely disagree with... the UK is one of the most the most unequal developed countries in the world with some of the lowest rates of social mobility.

I would argue that large groups of people are definitely not experiencing similar social and political problems. Perhaps to some extent more of us are feeling the same economic problems, but those economic problems hit some, particularly the poor and vulnerable, much harder than others.

... it is no excuse to riot as demonstrated by the people of poverty stricken areas who were out on mass with brooms and bins cleaning up their neighbourhood.

I agree with that too, really delightful and proud to see so many helping out. If I hadn't had work, I'd have been down there too.

What I'm worried about is the danger of people trying to explain this away as the governments fault when it is no-one's but the bastards who have caused such harm.

Clearly the instances of violence and crime are the fault of those out on the streets and the question of direct blame is simple, but the indirect blame is never so simple... it is important not to exclude these from any surrounding context. As suggested by some commentators, if we'd all been paying more attention to these impoverished areas of London we might have seen this coming... instead the police and government claimed to have been taken by surprise.

Check out his posts earlier, I think we have ourselves a daily mail reader.

Oh dear... :P

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I think it's fair to say most on the riot are immigrants (or descendants). And what do you mean by people around you? Are you right in the middle of rioters?

Not this second but I live in London and have seen the riots first hand. I fail to see why you think it is fair to say most rioters are immigrants.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I
That I definitely disagree with... the UK is one of the most the most unequal developed countries in the world with some of the lowest rates of social mobility.

I would argue that large groups of people are definitely not experiencing similar social and political problems. Perhaps to some extent more of us are feeling the same economic problems, but those economic problems hit some, particularly the poor and vulnerable, much harder than others.

Glad we agree on most points on this I'm no so sure. Whilst there are obviously large wealth disparities sometimes strangely close ones (try walking from Holloway to Highgate!) many of these communities have seen people in the same poverty stricken conditions out there cleaning up their streets.

I also don't think that poverty is an excuse to do most of the things seen. People stealing TVs, alcohol and burning down buses cannot rely on the excuse of poverty in my opinion.

 

[FeDeX_LaTeX]

My uncle lost his flat because of a fire, and his job too (building where he worked burned down). He has a wife and 3 kids (all younger than 2). From where I live, you just need to walk about 200 metres of so before you see the effects of the riots, and even some active rioters. Somebody posted this;

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205877_2350941572223_1210629852_2964673_7476615_n.jpg

Hoping this will be over soon, I can't go anywhere because the rioting is basically on my doorstep.

 

[JesseC]

Whilst there are obviously large wealth disparities sometimes strangely close ones (try walking from Holloway to Highgate!) many of these communities have seen people in the same poverty stricken conditions out there cleaning up their streets.

I also don't think that poverty is an excuse to do most of the things seen. People stealing TVs, alcohol and burning down buses cannot rely on the excuse of poverty in my opinion.

Haven't heard anyone suggest its an excuse yet!

The important difference is not just wealth, but age. The media are bombarding my eardrums with the fact that all this violence is being committed by the 'youth', 'young yobs' and aside from a few exceptions, this seems to be largely true. Not only that, but youths in poor areas.

Its simply not good enough to denounce them as rats, lock some of them up and forget about them. They are human beings after all! We need to look at issues surrounding the youth in poor areas... worse schools, lack of jobs and high unemployment, surrounded by crime, cutting of benefits and opportunities and a general lack of respect or care about their lives. I'm sure you can see how those sort of conditions would provide the fuel for any spark, say a police shooting, which happened to occur.

Its probably the case that the political and social causes are lost on the rioters and looters themselves, but that doesn't mean it has to be lost on us too.

 

[JesseC]

My uncle lost his flat because of a fire, and his job too (building where he worked burned down). He has a wife and 3 kids (all younger than 2). From where I live, you just need to walk about 200 metres of so before you see the effects of the riots, and even some active rioters. Somebody posted this;

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205877_2350941572223_1210629852_2964673_7476615_n.jpg

Hoping this will be over soon, I can't go anywhere because the rioting is basically on my doorstep.

Really sorry to hear that :(

 

[mheslep]

Dismaying response here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

[BBC]You been drinking all night?

Yeah
It’s the governments fault. Conservatives.

[BBC]You reckon it will go on tonight?

Hopefully

[BBC]...Why is the targeting local people, your own people?

It’s the rich people, the people got businesses. That’s why all of this is happening.

 

[Astronuc]

Have-nots vs haves. Ignoring the fact that those who have, may and probably, did put in the effort to get what they have.

Recently my mom told me of guy who came to the door asking for money. According to her, he disclosed that he was a sports fan who had recently attended a game. So according to that story, the guy blows his money on going to games, and then goes begging in neighborhoods for money - ostensibly because he doesn't have a job, or he doesn't make sufficient money to pay for the livestyle to which he believes he is entitled!

 

[drankin]

The question being posted now by some on the net is, "will rioting begin happening in the US?".

 

[Astronuc]

The question being posted now by some on the net is, "will rioting begin happening in the US?".

Certainly, it could! Remember Summer, 1968. Chicago, Nov. 1968.

LA Riots, 1992 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

Economic hardship, discontent, disillusionment/despair = anger, and often someone else to blame, although in 1968, some of the blame was someone else. Economic hardship, discontent, disillusionment/despair are not excusable for committing violence and mayhem, but rather are common motivators or precursors to such behavior.

 

[FeDeX_LaTeX]

If I recall correctly, earlier today a Belgian MP said somewhere that he thinks the rioting could easily spread to Europe.

 

[JesseC]

Have-nots vs haves. Ignoring the fact that those who have, may and probably, did put in the effort to get what they have.

That fact would matter more if there was a level playing field to begin with. Unfortunately the UK is a country in which some are lucky enough to be born into tremendous wealth (say our Prime Minister or Mayor of London or Chancellor of the Exchequer) whilst others can work hard their entire lives and get nowhere.

But I suppose we diverge from the topic slightly...

 

[Evo]

The question being posted now by some on the net is, "will rioting begin happening in the US?".

The answer is "it already has!". Several examples have already been given, so bad in Philadelphia that curfews are in effect.

Have any of you read the thread? I keep seeing posts which indicate people aren't reading what has been posted.

 

[drankin]

The answer is "it already has!". Several examples have already been given, so bad in Philadelphia that curfews are in effect.

I had heard rumors but I couldn't find any articles. If you have a good link, please post.

 

[Astronuc]

That fact would matter more if there was a level playing field to begin with. Unfortunately the UK is a country in which some are lucky enough to be born into tremendous wealth (say our Prime Minister or Mayor of London or Chancellor of the Exchequer) whilst others can work hard their entire lives and get nowhere.

But I suppose we diverge from the topic slightly...

That's the story (economic deprivation, or the perception thereof) behind the story.

There are perhaps those with legitimate greivances, and those who just choose to cause trouble. However, vandalism and violence are not the solutions to such a problem.

 

[Evo]

I had heard rumors but I couldn't find any articles. If you have a good link, please post.

Here are a couple from the first page.

It's becoming a widespread problem. Philly now has problems too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14466369

Just want to make a quick comment that in my city of Milwaukee, we've been having problems with youths organizing violent mobs via social media. At our 4th of July fireworks we had a mob destroy a 7-11 and then proceed to beat up 20-30 firework watchers. Also just last week we had a mob of 200 youths causing mayhem at our state fair which sent 30 to the hospital. It's a huge issue here. Social media is rearing it's ugly head.

 

[FeDeX_LaTeX]

And so, the shooting of Mark Duggan leads to World War III.

 

[drankin]

Here are a couple from the first page.

Interesting that it had to be an non-US article. I was googling the US news and didn't see anything. Must be overshadowed by the UK news.

 

[mheslep]

Certainly, it could! Remember Summer, 1968. Chicago, Nov. 1968...

Interesting that you mentioned that riot. There ware no observe only police lines back then. Mayor Daley's cops forcefully put down the riots in '68 Chicago. The youth rioters naively assumed the ethnic (poles, etc) police force would join in common cause with them, when they were really from two different cultures.

Grant Park 1968, where Obama gave his election night speech 40 years later.

 

[cristo]

So tonight London seems safe (as you'd imagine with 16,000 police on the streets), and it's definitely important to have taken back control of the capital, but some of the smaller cities have been badly hit. The central shopping centre in Manchester has been looted and some shops burnt to the ground. Sigh.. I hope this ends soon, it's embarrassing and hugely destructive.

 

[Evo]

Interesting that you mentioned that riot.

Shame on Astro for going off topic and not reading the earlier posts. Tsk!

Back to social media's involvement in the riots.

 

[mheslep]

Shame on Astro for going off topic and not reading the earlier posts. Tsk!

Back to social media's involvement in the riots.

Wrong thread Evo. This is the Riots of London thread

 

[phinds]

EDIT: This is the same reason why I think that self-driving cars will face a far harder introduction than people anticipate even if the technology exists. Never underestimate the human capability to misunderstand risk.

Obviously this is totally aside from the current thread, but it's an interesting point. I can easily imagine that if the death toll in America were to drop from tens of thousands per year due to car accidents to a few thousands or less due to the use of self-driving cars, if some of those were in self-driving cars, the headlines would be screaming "AUTOMATIC CARS KILL DRIVERS" and have nothing to say about the huge savings of lives.

 

[Evo]

So tonight London seems safe (as you'd imagine with 16,000 police on the streets), and it's definitely important to have taken back control of the capital, but some of the smaller cities have been badly hit. The central shopping centre in Manchester has been looted and some shops burnt to the ground. Sigh.. I hope this ends soon, it's embarrassing and hugely destructive.

It's really terrible. How long can the police keep up these numbers?

Since people are missing posts, I'll repost this.

Look at the destruction caused by the mobs. Horrible.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14461868

 

[Tosh5457]

It's really terrible. How long can the police keep up these numbers?

Since people are missing posts, I'll repost this.

Wow that's crazy. The Sony picture looks like it's photoshopped, unbelievable. Savages on the loose, what can we say :grumpy:

 

[Astronuc]

Shame on Astro for going off topic and not reading the earlier posts. Tsk!

:!) I'm just a troublemaker.

 

[Ken Natton]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/comment/talking-politics/no-politics-today-084521728.html

The major events which hit us now are treated as automatic verifications of each individual's personal politics. It happened most recently with the massacre in Norway. Just this evening mayoral candidate Ken Livingstone made points which amounted to party political posturing. Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the BNP blamed multiculturalism. More than one right-wing columnist blamed family breakdown. An army of left-wingers blamed deprivation. Many of them also joined the right in calling for the army to come out on the streets.
...
The first thing we have to do is separate the valid ideas from the invalid ones. Blaming this on multiculturalism, for instance, is laughable and demonstrably false, as any Turkish man defending his shop with a stick tonight can tell you.
...
We can't talk about why this happened without talking about family breakdown, lack of respect for others and lack of responsibility.
...
But we will also define ourselves by how we respond to this.
...
No-one with a career behaves this way. No-one who is invested in society would act like this. Only people with nothing to lose would do this.

There is nothing I can add to this insightful telling commentary. Easily the best I have seen.

 

[Evo]

Wrong thread Evo. This is the Riots of London thread

Yes, the riots in London were caused/worsened by social media. Read the thread! <fish slaps mheslep>

We discussed this yesterday in chat.

http://news.yahoo.com/london-rioters-battle-police-shooting-protest-054921704.html

It seems the riot was fueled by social media, people that had no interest in what happened came in from other areas. Looks like a new trend in mobs and riots caused or worsened by social media.

 

[drankin]

Yes, the riots in London were caused/worsened by social media. Read the thread! <fish slaps mheslep>

I disagree that social media, a communication medium, is responsible for these riots. Just because people can communicate so easily is not the cause of this behaviour.

This quote that Ken Natton posted from a commentary nails it IMO: "No-one with a career behaves this way. No-one who is invested in society would act like this. Only people with nothing to lose would do this."

 

[Evo]

I disagree that social media, a communication medium, is responsible for these riots. Just because people can communicate so easily is not the cause of this behaviour.

It's how the mobs were gathered and directed. Social media is the tool, people are the catalyst.

 

[Ken Natton]

Social media and more traditional media played a big role in the spread of unrest around Arab nations earlier this year. The social issues that underpinned that unrest were completely different to the opportunistic mayhem engulfing England at the moment. Social media is just an efficient method of communication. What matters is the content and the motivation behind the messages.

 

[FeDeX_LaTeX]

I had to get out of my area for a bit because I needed to buy groceries. I come out of the grocery store and after 2 minutes a guy tries to mug me in plain sight (grabs at my shirt and pushes me backwards). He says he wants my shoes, then his 'friend' tells him to leave me alone because they won't fit.

Also heard of a few more incidents where thugs are asking random people to give them their clothes. I feel for those people, as it must be absolutely humiliating... I don't even want to go outside anymore. Online shopping it is.

 

[drankin]

I had to get out of my area for a bit because I needed to buy groceries. I come out of the grocery store and after 2 minutes a guy tries to mug me in plain sight (grabs at my shirt and pushes me backwards). He says he wants my shoes, then his 'friend' tells him to leave me alone because they won't fit.

Also heard of a few more incidents where thugs are asking random people to give them their clothes. I feel for those people, as it must be absolutely humiliating... I don't even want to go outside anymore. Online shopping it is.

I'm sorry to hear you have to deal with that minding your own business in public. It really angers me. Someone comes up to me and tells me they want my shoes, they are going to get one of them in their face while it's still on my foot.

If you have some big friends, ask them to hang out with you when you are out and about until this blows over. Avoid the streets alone.

 

[NeoDevin]

"No-one with a career behaves this way. No-one who is invested in society would act like this. Only people with nothing to lose would do this."

See http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2011/06/17/calgary-vancouver-riot-athlete.html" from the recent Vancouver riots.

I imagine as people are identified in the London riots, we'll see that some of them are successful and were caught up in the mob-mentality.