Should scientific research be solely funded by the private sector?

[mege]

While Pell grants are a form of welfare, they have more stipulations attached to them and they're seen as a truly upward enabler, not a restribution. Also, the amount of money put into the Pell grant is far less than general welfare. Because of that - I don't group Pell grants with some of the other social programs that tend to perpetuate the conditions that they try to fix.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but people don't look at Pell grants and say 'well, maybe I'm better off not working so I qualify for a Pell grant' like happens with unemployement and general welfare.

 

[SixNein]

I thought they do? (At least the GPA part)

The GPA requirement is a 2.0.

 

[Evo]

The GPA requirement is a 2.0.

That's probably why I never heard them mention GPA, they are all way above that.

 

[Pengwuino]

I wouldn't mind seeing some modest GPA requirements on pell grants. I would also like to see a stop on federal funding of these online for profit universities / degree mills.

THIS is the biggest problem. I heard something like 90% of all federal funding in regards to financial aid goes to places like University of Pheonix and these other diploma mills. One of our former students worked at I think either UoP or ITT Tech and apparently most of his job was trying to get money for the university.

The GPA requirement is a 2.0.

Except isn't this pretty much most universities requirements for all students before they start kicking you out? At my university, I believe you can go below a 2.0 for a semester but after that, they may kick you out.

 

[SixNein]

THIS is the biggest problem. I heard something like 90% of all federal funding in regards to financial aid goes to places like University of Pheonix and these other diploma mills. One of our former students worked at I think either UoP or ITT Tech and apparently most of his job was trying to get money for the university.



Except isn't this pretty much most universities requirements for all students before they start kicking you out? At my university, I believe you can go below a 2.0 for a semester but after that, they may kick you out.

I'm not going to name any specific colleges, but yes there are diploma mills that are ******** and sucking up federal money. Humorously, conservatives seem to defend the practice.

http://blog.heritage.org/2010/08/10/the-assault-on-for-profit-universities/

 

[talk2glenn]

I thought they do? (At least the GPA part)

No; the sole qualifier is financial need.

 

[khemist]

Agreed. If Pell Grants can help kids get out of the destructive cycle that would put them on our wellfare rolls, it's worth it. I don't think it should be a hand out without qualifications though. That's what needs to be changed, attach some accountability to it. Given to the right students, it can mean becoming independent, responsible, educated adults and that means that their offspring will be less likley to be on our wellfare roles.

Unfortunately it is quite easy to bs that you need the money, though the government should not revoke a program intended to help because a few people abuse the system.

Wow, that's a great propaganda sounbyte that misses the entire discussion of the thread! Congrats!

Thanks bro, just doing my part.

 

[SixNein]

No; the sole qualifier is financial need.

They also have to maintain satisfactory academic progress defined by the school. And at most places, the student is required to maintain at least a 2.0.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/aideligibility.jsp?tab=funding

 

[Pengwuino]

Humorously, conservatives seem to defend the practice.

http://blog.heritage.org/2010/08/10/the-assault-on-for-profit-universities/

There is nothing wrong with for-profit higher education. TO me, the only difference between a for-profit school and a non-profit school is that at the end of the day, one needs to have spent all its money. Up until now, the reasons non-profit universities didn't stoop to such sleezeball tactics is that they didn't really need to. Now, combine government cuts with the recent surge in higher education attendance, non-profits are using their own tricks. You can easily find countless articles detailing how many universities have emphasized the social aspect and party lifestyle in universities and pushed the actual education quality aside so they can rake in more money.

Hell, look at the payroll at any public university. Administrators get more money than most CEOs get. I think higher education all around has become a racket.

Unfortunately it is quite easy to bs that you need the money, though the government should not revoke a program intended to help because a few people abuse the system.

Can you name any system in the world with 0 accountability and oversight that deals with these quantities of money that isn't heavily abused?

 

[ThomasT]

I'm surprised anyone could get upset about pell grants.

Me too. It really seems like a non-issue. Most of the money that's given to the poor goes directly into the general economy, and so is good for the country. Most of the money that's given to the rich doesn't go into the general economy, but rather stays in the financial sector, where it's hoarded or wagered in the financial markets.

So, yes, Pell Grants are welfare to the poor. And that's mostly a good thing, because welfare to the poor benefits the general economy and therefore the country.

 

[Pengwuino]

Me too. It really seems like a non-issue. Most of the money that's given to the poor goes directly into the general economy, and so is good for the country. Most of the money that's given to the rich doesn't go into the general economy, but rather stays in the financial sector, where it's hoarded or wagered in the financial markets.

So, yes, Pell Grants are welfare to the poor. And that's mostly a good thing, because welfare to the poor benefits the general economy and therefore the country.

You say this as if universities are run by people that aren't rich. Over here in California, San Diego State, in the middle of the biggest budget crisis in our states history, just appointed a new President with a salary of $400,000.

And let's not even start talking about the actual chancellors of these state systems.

Plus, imagine if 5,000 students at any decently sized university end up getting $100k over the course of their studies in financial aid and end up working at starbucks, that's half a billion dollars wasted, easily, at just one university. And that's NO exaggeration. I think the recent estimates are that 50% of students right now are going to leave college jobless. And when you finish college and aren't applying what you learned (if you learned anything), that knowledge slips away fast.

Your idealistic dismissals should be rethought.

 

[SixNein]

You say this as if universities are run by people that aren't rich. Over here in California, San Diego State, in the middle of the biggest budget crisis in our states history, just appointed a new President with a salary of $400,000.

And let's not even start talking about the actual chancellors of these state systems.

Plus, imagine if 5,000 students at any decently sized university end up getting $100k over the course of their studies in financial aid and end up working at starbucks, that's half a billion dollars wasted, easily, at just one university. And that's NO exaggeration. I think the recent estimates are that 50% of students right now are going to leave college jobless. And when you finish college and aren't applying what you learned (if you learned anything), that knowledge slips away fast.

Your idealistic dismissals should be rethought.

Your over estimating the value of those pell grants by a long shot. Even with the recent boost, the pell grants are only like 5k a year. People aren't exactly making out like bandits.

 

[Pengwuino]

Your over estimating the value of those pell grants by a long shot. Even with the recent boost, the pell grants are only like 5k a year. People aren't exactly making out like bandits.

Sure but these are order-of-magnitude estimates. There aren't only 5,000 students doing this per university (realistically it'd probably be a better estimate to go per year at a few thousand per year) and there isn't only 1 university in this country. You can easily go into the tens of billions of dollars per year.

This isn't spare change.

 

[russ_watters]

Most of the money that's given to the poor goes directly into the general economy, and so is good for the country.

So what??! It's still spending borrowed money! You're advocating doing more of what this bill is supposed to start to FIX. That flawed thinking is why we're here, talking about an unsustainable debt!

Question: if spending money to help the poor is such a positive thing even in the face of debt, why don't YOU give all of your money to charity, then go borrow as much as you can so you can give more? Please answer, it's a serious question. If you're not doing it now, there must be a downside. What is it?

 

[Dickfore]

I see them less as welfare and more of simple subsidies.

I have not read through all of the comments, but this. As far as I know, the Department of Agriculture pays farmers to leave their land without any crop. But, then again, the majority of farmers tend to vote for the Republican Party, whereas the majority of students are pro-Democrat. The tea-party is, first and foremost, a wing of the Republican Party.

 

[russ_watters]

Correct: this provision was inserted to buy democratic votes, while farm subsidies buy republican votes.

 

[Dickfore]

Correct: this provision was inserted to buy democratic votes, while farm subsidies buy republican votes.

Wow, your logic is flawless.

 

[russ_watters]

Wow, your logic is flawless.

? Its realism. If you disagree, please explain why you think this provision was added to a completely unrelated bill.

Or was there a bigger point to your post that I missed? If so, please clarify.

 

[Dickfore]

? Its realism. If you disagree, please explained why you think this provision was added to a completely unrelated bill.

Or was there a bigger point to your post that I missed? If so, please clarify.

Please explain how one buys a vote.

 

[jambaugh]

The tea-party is, first and foremost, a wing of the Republican Party.

I would rather say the tea-party is more closely aligned with the Republican Party's platform and so you see the majority of the members, especially members who successfully ran for office, are Republican in party affiliation. However, it is a true grass-roots political manifestation, not an astroturf creation of the Republican leadership, so I would contradict your statement there.

 

[Dickfore]

However, it is a true grass-roots political manifestation, not an astroturf creation of the Republican leadership, so I would contradict your statement there.

What does 'grass-roots political manifestation' mean? The only political organization in a Democratic society is a Political Party that runs on elections. Is it possible for a person to be a member of two different political parties simultaneously? Will the members of the Tea Party run on some elections under the Republican Party banner or the 'Tea-Party' banner?

 

[jambaugh]

And that's mostly a good thing, because welfare to the poor benefits the general economy and therefore the country.

I dispute this statement. I agree that assisting the poor does benefit the general economy and thus country but only if carried out through voluntary donations within the private sector. Enforced charity fails on three fronts.

Firstly as coerced redistribution of wealth it is not subject to the judgment of the individual donating the wealth and thus the recipient develops no sense of gratitude to the person who via his knowledge and character is able to produce that wealth. He does not seek to emulate the producer but rather is grateful instead to the politician who use the power of the state to transfer the wealth.

Secondly since the distributor of that wealth is not the one who had to produce it, he does not best understand the value of that wealth, what is required to produce it, and thus how best to distribute it in terms of who is most deserving. To prevent favoritism he must abide by an objective policy of distribution which in turn is subject to manipulation and corruption by the potential recipients. They will behave in a way to better qualify for the largess instead of behaving in a way to free themselves from the need for that largess. I recall a woman on PRN complaining about her inability to find a job with her "Masters of Women's Studies Degree". A find degree I am sure but not one conducive of producing the wealth she desires to keep her supplied with food clothing and shelter if she does not already have the means.

Thirdly since the producer of that wealth does not have any choice in its redistribution he looses some incentive to produce it and more importantly looses more incentive to "pay it back" through private sector organizations.

I'm surprised that those same people who argue that charity is necessary because it benefits all cannot also carry that logic through to recognized that the producers of wealth also recognize that fact (if true) and thus do not need to be coerced into doing what is in their best interest...that by coercing them you belie your belief in the truth of your words.

 

[ThomasT]

You say this as if universities are run by people that aren't rich.

What makes you say that?

Over here in California, San Diego State, in the middle of the biggest budget crisis in our states history, just appointed a new President with a salary of $400,000.

What's that got to do with whether Pell grants are welfare or are good for the economy?

And let's not even start talking about the actual chancellors of these state systems.

Ok. That would be off topic anyway.

Plus, imagine if 5,000 students at any decently sized university end up getting $100k over the course of their studies in financial aid and end up working at starbucks, that's half a billion dollars wasted, easily, at just one university. And that's NO exaggeration.

The Pell grant money that gets put into the general economy, and I assume that that would be a good portion of it, isn't wasted. It helps the economy, and, therefore, is good for the country.

I think the recent estimates are that 50% of students right now are going to leave college jobless. And when you finish college and aren't applying what you learned (if you learned anything), that knowledge slips away fast.

I agree that for lots of, maybe most, people college is more of a social than an academic thing.

Your idealistic dismissals should be rethought.

What idealistic dismissals? My point was that Pell grants are welfare, and that that welfare helps the economy whether the Pell grant recipients eventually land high level jobs or not.

 

[ThomasT]

I agree that assisting the poor does benefit the general economy and thus country but only if carried out through voluntary donations within the private sector.

I have to disagree with that for the time being. But I'll consider your points further, and if I change my mind then I'll post something wrt that. If you would like me to address your argument point by point then I'll do that when I have more time, and have thought about it some more.

 

[jambaugh]

What does 'grass-roots political manifestation' mean?

"Grass-roots" means organized from bottom up, i.e. a spontaneous organization of individuals with like minded ideologies. The civil rights movement began as a grass-roots political manifestation... individuals began protesting, then organizing their protests, then politicians latched on (a good thing, mind you) and now we have a new amendment to our constitution. "Political manifestion" means a manifestation (phenomena, happening, ...) within the arena of politics. Need I break it down further?

The only political organization in a Democratic society is a Political Party that runs on elections.

Within the Democratic party, itself a large body encompassing a broad range of ideologies, you have more specific organizations of individuals with specific goals on guiding the platform, you have the http://www.democraticfreedomcaucus.org/" .

Is it possible for a person to be a member of two different political parties simultaneously? Will the members of the Tea Party run on some elections under the Republican Party banner or the 'Tea-Party' banner?

As yet the Tea-Party Movement is not a political party. It is more a caucus like my examples above working within the political parties. It has membership in both parties: http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/polls/90541-survey-four-in-10-tea-party-members-dem-or-indie" .

As far as party leaders are concerned, the Republican leaders are still trying to figure out how to deal with the Tea Party. Some of the Democratic leadership have tried to paint them as insignificant and as bigoted hillbillies but that has mostly failed.

 

[jambaugh]

I have to disagree with that for the time being. But I'll consider your points further, and if I change my mind then I'll post something wrt that. If you would like me to address your argument point by point then I'll do that when I have more time, and have thought about it some more.

Certainly, and it may go far afield of the OP so we should consider forming a new thread.

 

[ThomasT]

So what??! It's still spending borrowed money! You're advocating doing more of what this bill is supposed to start to FIX. That flawed thinking is why we're here, talking about an unsustainable debt!

Question: if spending money to help the poor is such a positive thing even in the face of debt, why don't YOU give all of your money to charity, then go borrow as much as you can so you can give more? Please answer, it's a serious question. If you're not doing it now, there must be a downside. What is it?

Our governments have wasted lots of money, and therefore we have a huge debt problem. But I don't think that Pell grants, and welfare to the poor in general, is part of that wasted money. The net effect of welfare to the poor is that it helps the general economy, which you seem to agree with. And anyway it's a relatively small percentage of the budget.

We're going to be spending borrowed money for a long time. This is primarily due to monetary waste due to inordinately grossly inflated costs of things that the government pays for. It has little to do with welfare to the poor such as Pell grants.

 

[russ_watters]

Please explain how one buys a vote.

I'm a little surprised at the push-back here and I'm not quite sure what the point of the push-back is - what exactly do you disagree with?

The issue I brought up is standard operating procedure in government:

-A guy from Party A introduces a bill, that Party B doesn't like.
-Party A inserts a provision (almost always costing money) in exchange for some votes from Party B.

There is, of course, a secondary effect, most often seen with "pork" or "earmarks", which is sending money to a specific district for a specific project. These provisions buy both the vote of the Congressman and the votes of his/her constitutents for him. That's one of the primary selling points of many incumbents - 'I bring $xxxxx back to the district!'

Also, while it's an agreement, it isn't a "compromise" (not sure if that's the preferred characterization, I'm just guessing...) because such provisions aren't relevant to the issue of the bill. If you don't like the phrase "buying votes" to describe it, please suggest an [accurate] alternate.

 

[WhoWee]

According to the hill, tea party members were upset about the spending on pell grants and some view it as welfare.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/174253-house-conservatives-angry-over-pell-grant-funding-in-boehner-debt-bill

I'm surprised anyone could get upset about pell grants.

Back to the OP - if financial aid for college isn't welfare - what is it?

 

[russ_watters]

Within the Democratic party, itself a large body encompassing a broad range of ideologies, you have more specific organizations of individuals with specific goals on guiding the platform, you have the http://www.democraticfreedomcaucus.org/" .

I would also say that there are political organizations outside the political parties. The tea party is one, so is NOW, MoveOn, the NRA, etc.

 

[russ_watters]

Our governments have wasted lots of money, and therefore we have a huge debt problem. But I don't think that Pell grants, and welfare to the poor in general, is part of that wasted money. The net effect of welfare to the poor is that it helps the general economy, which you seem to agree with. And anyway it's a relatively small percentage of the budget.

All of that is fine and I agree with it, but it sidesteps the issue. The OP - a liberal - wanted to know why conservatives don't like this provision, though asked a pointed question not necessarily related. You can't seek to understand why someone thinks what they think if you won't even examine the actual reasons for their opinions!

We're going to be spending borrowed money for a long time. This is primarily due to monetary waste due to inordinately grossly inflated costs of things that the government pays for. It has little to do with welfare to the poor such as Pell grants.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that, but it sounds wrong: most of what we spend (besides interest on the debt) isn't for $90 mops, it's for social programs.

 

[SixNein]

I would rather say the tea-party is more closely aligned with the Republican Party's platform and so you see the majority of the members, especially members who successfully ran for office, are Republican in party affiliation. However, it is a true grass-roots political manifestation, not an astroturf creation of the Republican leadership, so I would contradict your statement there.

FreedomWorks and Americans for Prosperity both originated from a campaign called Citizens for a Sound Economy, which split in two in 2004. CSE was set up by businessman David Koch (Koch Industries).[3] Citizens for a Sound Economy merged with Empower America in 2004 and was renamed FreedomWorks, with Dick Armey, Jack Kemp and C. Boyden Gray serving as co-chairmen, Bill Bennett focusing on school choice as a Senior Fellow, and Matt Kibbe as President and CEO.[4][5][contradiction] Empower America was founded in 1993 by William Bennett, former Secretary of HUD Jack Kemp, former Ambassador Jeane J. Kirkpatrick, and former Representative Vin Weber.[6] In December 2006, Steve Forbes joined the board of directors.

It looks a lot like astroturf to me.

 

[WhoWee]

It looks a lot like astroturf to me.

Are you referring to comments made previously by former Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi - now IMO - the Speaker of the Hard Left in the House?

 

[rhody]

56% instead of 68% is a huge difference. Also, when they say "comparable", to me that means comparable as in similar numbers of risk factors such as those outlined in the thread already. This doesn't mean comparable to other students. This means compared to other BAD students. Also, a 50% graduation rate after 6 years is atrocious. It's fine if people want to spend their own money and not even graduate after so many years, but when it's tax payer money, that is ridiculous.

The worst part is that when you start looking at students who take 6-8 years to just get a BS in drama and theatre, these students are less likely to be investments in society. Most parents will even cut off their children after so many years!

Pengy,

Good, point, instead of getting rid of the grants altogether, could they be restructured, perhaps renamed to something other than grants, that would require a time limit, and a certain GPA to qualify and continue to get them ? Those requirements alone I am sure would result in substantial savings. It would separate those looking to scam the system to those who apply themselves and get their degree with a certain GPA in a reasonable time frame. The honor system does not work, resulting in many millions of dollars squandered and wasted, as you have said:

I don't know a single person who is on that form of financial aid that actually 1) uses it responsible or 2) does well in school.

The more I think about it, in the end it comes back to politics, liberal versus conservative, doesn't it, because each side will lobby for their "just" cause. It is too bad people can't put them aside and use some "common sense" for a change. Or is that taboo in today's society ?

Rhody...

 

[daveb]

Of course Pell grants are welfare. Only an idiot would dispute that. The real question is, is it a worthwhile welfare program?

(In answer to the, "Pell spending doesn't belong in this bill!" comments, I say, "Yeah, well just about every bill passed by Congress has portions unrelated to the crux of the bill, and that will probably never change. What's your point?")

Just because some abuse (i.e., game) the system doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. Yes, some lie, and that should be prosecutable. But there are those who truly would be SOL without Pell grants. I didn't qualify for Pell grants, but I wouldn't have been able to finish my BS without loans, despite also working full time. In some areas with a high standard of living (such as Los Angeles where I was located), that little extra is needed.

Just because some people manage to work 2 jobs while going to school doesn't mean everyone can. The Pell grant recipient who works full time, is a single mom, but is still trying to better her and her children's life by getting an education might still need that little bit extra.

On the other hand, just because you can get a Pell doesn't mean you should. I've known students who moved out of their Malibu/Beverly Hills house to be "independent" so they could get the grants. They didn't need them, but got them anyway. Perfectly legal.

So, yes, the system isn't perfect. I don't think any system is perfect. Democracy isn't, dictatorships aren't, capitalism isn't, and socialism isn't. But each has its good points and its bad points. The more perfect we can make our systems the better we as a nation will become. But railing against Pell grants simply because they are welfare is just a knee-jerk reaction to what has become a dirty word.