Spain Muslims Issue Fatwa Against Bin Laden

[Bilal]

MADRID, Spain - Muslim clerics in Spain issued what they called the world's first fatwa, or Islamic edict, against Osama bin Laden on Thursday, the first anniversary of the Madrid train bombings, calling him an apostate and urging others of their faith to denounce the al-Qaida leader.

The ruling was issued by the Islamic Commission of Spain, the main body representing the country's 1 million-member Muslim community. The commission represents 200 or so mostly Sunni mosques, or about 70 percent of all mosques in Spain.

The March 11, 2004, train bombings killed 191 people and were claimed in videotapes by militants who said they had acted on al-Qaida's behalf in revenge for Spain's troop deployment in Iraq .

The commission's secretary general, Mansur Escudero, said the group had consulted with Muslim leaders in other countries, such as Morocco — home to most of the jailed suspects in the bombings — Algeria and Libya, and had their support.

"They agree," Escudero said, referring to the Muslim leaders in the three North African countries. "What I want is that they say so publicly."

The fatwa said that according to the Quran "the terrorist acts of Osama bin Laden and his organization al-Qaida ... are totally banned and must be roundly condemned as part of Islam."

It added: "Inasmuch as Osama bin Laden and his organization defend terrorism as legal and try to base it on the Quran ... they are committing the crime of 'istihlal' and thus become apostates that should not be considered Muslims or treated as such." The Arabic term 'istihlal' refers to the act of making up one's own laws.

Escudero said a fatwa can be issued by any Muslim leader who leads prayer sessions and as he serves such a role, he himself lawfully issued the edict.

He called it an unprecedented condemnation of bin Laden. "We felt now we had the responsibility and obligation to make this declaration," he said in an interview.

"I hope there is a positive reaction from Muslims," he added.

Asked if the edict meant Muslims had to help police try to arrest the world's most wanted man — who is believed to be hiding along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan — Escudero said: "We don't get involved in police affairs but we do feel that all Muslims are obliged to ... keep anyone from doing unjustified damage to other people."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=5&u=/ap/20050310/ap_on_re_eu/spain_bombings_fatwa

 

[SOS2008]

Bush's new mantra is that democracy will eliminate terrorism. Along with recent demonstrations in Lebanon against U.S. intervention, if Islam condemns terrorism, perhaps Bush doesn't really need to police the world as much as he would like to think?

 

[russ_watters]

A welcome change in attitude. We'll see if it sticks/proliferates.

 

[PerennialII]

A great gesture ... I hope this progresses since this ougth to have expanded a long time ago.

 

[Evo]

if Islam condemns terrorism, perhaps Bush doesn't really need to police the world as much as he would like to think?

That's the big "if". Will the rest of the Islamic countries come forward and support this? That was a very brave thing Escudero did, you know he is marked for death now.

 

[kat]

what's missing...

Escudero said: "We don't get involved in police affairs but we do feel that all Muslims are obliged to ... keep anyone from doing unjustified damage to other people."

call me a sKeptic, but I'm always dubious about the message until i read what's between the "..."
The media has a funny way of ignoring the "full" meaning.

 

[Bilal]

They are religious scholars not judges! If there is any Islamic authority, they can issue decisions based on the Fatwa. They have no authority to arrest or to order punishment against anybody, except to explain the point of Islam from some people and their ideas.

This Fatwa indicate that any supporter of OBL and his ideas is not considered Muslim anymore; also any Islamic country can order to arrest him based on this Fatwa.

call me a sKeptic, but I'm always dubious about the message until i read what's between the "..."
The media has a funny way of ignoring the "full" meaning.

 

[russ_watters]

They are religious scholars not judges! If there is any Islamic authority, they can issue decisions based on the Fatwa. They have no authority to arrest or to order punishment against anybody, except to explain the point of Islam from some people and their ideas.

Nevertheless, for a scholar to stand up and say 'Islam isn't about terrorism' is a much needed attitude change.

 

[kat]

They are religious scholars not judges! If there is any Islamic authority, they can issue decisions based on the Fatwa. They have no authority to arrest or to order punishment against anybody, except to explain the point of Islam from some people and their ideas.

This Fatwa indicate that any supporter of OBL and his ideas is not considered Muslim anymore; also any Islamic country can order to arrest him based on this Fatwa.

Your comment in response to my statement doesn't make any sense, so I"m going to assume that you don't understand what I meant.

Usually when a reporter quotes something or someone and breaks a sentence with "..." it means they've left some part of their statement out.

So, I"m asking what was left out of his statement. Without knowing what the reporter left out, I do not believe that I have the full truth of what he's saying.

It would be like me taking your statement above and doing this:
"They are religious scholars not judges! If there is any Islamic authority, they can issue decisions based on the Fatwa...to explain the point of Islam from some people and their ideas."

Get it?

 

[Pengwuino]

Usually when they put the ...'s in, its for meaningless stuff. Say i go "last night i went out with my girlfriend who wore a pink dress and sandals and we were confronted by a bunch of bikers". You could change it to "last night i went out with my girlfriend... and we were confronted by a bunch of bikers". I believe that's what its for at least... If you leave really really important words out, you get caught eventually and no one likes taking that chance (especially if its something this important).

 

[Bilal]

I understand what you mean now!

The missing part , as Pengwuino mentioned , could be not important for public. This means they added many verses of Koran and evidences to prove their Fatwa.

These evidences are well known for normal Muslim and not so important for non Muslims. It just need brave person to mention it as Fatwa in public. Such Fatwa means new division in Islam … of course this could be more dangerous than we imagine, if we talk about several next generations.

This scholar is Spanish who converted to Islam, but his family originated from the ‘’Moorish’’ as many Spanish families. Moorish are mixture generations of native Spanish and Arab through 800 years.

Your comment in response to my statement doesn't make any sense, so I"m going to assume that you don't understand what I meant.

Usually when a reporter quotes something or someone and breaks a sentence with "..." it means they've left some part of their statement out.

So, I"m asking what was left out of his statement. Without knowing what the reporter left out, I do not believe that I have the full truth of what he's saying.

It would be like me taking your statement above and doing this:
"They are religious scholars not judges! If there is any Islamic authority, they can issue decisions based on the Fatwa...to explain the point of Islam from some people and their ideas."

Get it?

 

[Bilal]

In fact many scholars against terrorism.. more than 99% , but to say that who do it as not Muslim anymore is another thing.

Nevertheless, for a scholar to stand up and say 'Islam isn't about terrorism' is a much needed attitude change.

 

[misskitty]

Now my knowledge of the Islamic faith isn't very extensive, but isn't the Islamic faith a much more peaceful/calm (I don't really know what word fits better) religion than it seems? I haven't read the Koran, I want to, but doesn't the Koran promote peace towards people? As I said my knowledge is limited, that's why I'm asking.

 

[Pengwuino]

Now my knowledge of the Islamic faith isn't very extensive, but isn't the Islamic faith a much more peaceful/calm (I don't really know what word fits better) religion than it seems? I haven't read the Koran, I want to, but doesn't the Koran promote peace towards people? As I said my knowledge is limited, that's why I'm asking.

Yes, yes it does. Not much more to say about it except "yes, it is a peaceful religion".

 

[misskitty]

Since they are supposed to be a peaceful religion, why does it seem as though they are qiucker to embrace violence than other religions?

 

[Bilal]

Pengwuino & misskitty

This is complex and long topic to discuss …

In fact any religion is weapon of two edges.. ..depends on how you use it.

May be Islam is more active religion and it is not practiced only inside the church or temple, it has its own ideology.

People understand it in different ways.. for example some scholars considers the democracy and human rights as part of Islam , while other reject the democracy!

Muslims of Spain (7th century till 15 th century) were great example of tolerance and civilization. Muslims, Jews and Christian lived together in peace and created great civilization. They built many universities (e.g. Cordoba University), and encouraged philosophy, translation, Arts, music.. Women got their freedom. The same for Baghdad in 10th century, they built first hospital and first University for translations of ancient literature of other civilizations... They developed many fields in sciences..

On the other hand, we have many stories about extremists groups who murdered many leaders and innocent people. Even during crusaders wars, some groups formed ‘’Assassins Mafia’’ to kill people for fun.

It is as we call NAZI, fascism, Communism, Secularism, Humanism; Capitalism as products of western civilization … so every civilization has good and bad fruits …

Most of Islmaic world today is part of third world and they have similar troubles ...

 

[Pengwuino]

Yah all religions have their majority 'good parts' to it but there's parts that promote a little violence. The Bible speaks of violence a lot for example. Plus of course, people's actions don't necessarily reflect the actions called for by a religion. And of course, you can grossly misinterpret a religion. Some people ignorantly believe 'thou shalt not kill' means that if someones stabbing u, u better just take it when the actual hebrew commandment was 'thou shalt not murder' and in hebrew, murder was understood to mean pre-meditated.

 

[klusener]

Since they are supposed to be a peaceful religion, why does it seem as though they are qiucker to embrace violence than other religions

I don't know about that, in recent times, it appears to be true, but if you look at history, wherever the Western Hemisphere colonized they used violence and force to convert the natives to Christianity, in fact I think it would be logical to say that in the time before the 1950's, there was more violence perpetrated by Christians than Muslims. I mean look at the two major world wars, who started it? Muslims, no, you know who it was. I am not a Muslim or a Christian, I believe in Siddharta Gautama's teachings, so I don't have any reason to have a biased argument (if someone accuses me of that)...

Edit: I agree with Pengwuino... It is up to individuals to decide their personal actions, so if you see that someone is doing something wrong, don't blame it on their personal religions, it's his actions or faults..

 

[russ_watters]

I haven't read the Koran, I want to, but doesn't the Koran promote peace towards people?

You will be shocked by what you read, but the geopolitical situation regarding Islam will make much more sense.

 

[kat]

Usually when they put the ...'s in, its for meaningless stuff. Say i go "last night i went out with my girlfriend who wore a pink dress and sandals and we were confronted by a bunch of bikers". You could change it to "last night i went out with my girlfriend... and we were confronted by a bunch of bikers". I believe that's what its for at least... If you leave really really important words out, you get caught eventually and no one likes taking that chance (especially if its something this important).

One would expect this to be true. However, many long searches for full transcripts to see what was left out with the "..." have shown me otherwise.
I'd like to see the full transcript and I'd also like to see some of his sermons etc. BEFORE Spain recently started to get a bit nervous about it's own radical muslim population.

 

[Bilal]

I do, not like such way of discussion ... I am willing to discuss with you about Islam in separate post.

I believe religion is personal but I do not like such misleading propaganda …. The basic of Koran is justice and peace, but Koran ask to stop any enemy who try to attack … Koran tell people that their freedom is more important than their life.. So you find Muslims nations did not surrender to western colonists easily.

These verses are the basic human relations in Islam:

2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.


'O You who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor, for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the cravings of your hearts, lest you swerve, and if you distort justice or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.' al-Qurán 4:35

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)

O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female and have made you into nations and tribes for you to know one another. Truly, the noblest of you with God is the most pious.2 Truly, God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (Quran, 49:13

"Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve" (Surat Al-Baqarah 2:62).

Whosoever kills a human being without (any reason like) man slaughter, or corruption on earth, it is as though he had killed all mankind ... (5:32)

Do not kill a soul which Allah has made sacred except through the due process of law ... (6:151)

"And whoever saves a life it is as though he had saved the lives of all mankind" (5:32)

"And we set you up as nations and tribes so that you may be able to recognize each other" (49:13).

"Do not devour one another's wealth by false and illegal means" (2:188).

"Do not argue with the people of the Book unless it is in the politest manner" (29:46)

"No prisoner should be put to the sword"-a very clear and unequivocal instruction given by the Prophet (S).

"The Prophet has prohibited the killing of anyone who is tied or is in captivity."

"The Prophet has prohibited us from mutilating the corpses of the enemies" (al- Bukhari; Abu Dawud).

You will be shocked by what you read, but the geopolitical situation regarding Islam will make much more sense.

 

[Bilal]

OBL and his supporters using these verses to justify their attacks:

Whoever offers violence to you, offer you the like violence to him.
2:190

They believe that American responsible about death of many civilians especially in Iraq so they deserve to be treated the same. Based on this verse, there are many verses asking Muslims not to be soft with those who attack them …. These verses are used under specific conditions ‘’when you are under attack’’ ..

 

[Qyamat]

Yes, Islam has always stopped Muslims from attacking first unless they themselves are attacked or their rights are violated.

 

[marlon]

MADRID, Spain - Muslim clerics in Spain issued what they called the world's first fatwa, or Islamic edict, against Osama bin Laden on Thursday, the first anniversary of the Madrid train bombings, calling him an apostate and urging others of their faith to denounce the al-Qaida leader.

it is a great thing the REAL islamists of Spain issued this fatwa.

marlon

 

[marlon]

Real islamists should shout out against bin Laden more often

marlon

 

[Janitor]

... "yes, it is a peaceful religion".

As long as you're willing to overlook the part of the Koran that instructs believers to slay nonbelievers with their swords.

Muslims of course can point to the instruction "Don't allow a witch to live" in the Christian New Testament. But Christians haven't been carrying out that instruction for centuries.

 

[Bilal]

Please read my previous answer: The last verses show the basic Islamic rules, unless you are under attack...

From historical point:

- In 1099: Crusaders armies slaughtered 60000 Muslims and 4000 Jews beside few thousands of eastern christen in Jerusalem.. in fact they murdered all the citizen of the city.
-1187: Muslims got Jerusalem again; they released all the Crusaders prisoners and gave money to those who want to return back to Europe.

- Jews, Muslims and Christian live peacefully in Spain under Muslims rule for 8 centuries.

- Fall of Spain in 1494; The catholic church annihilated millions of Muslims and Jews. Ottoman Empire sent several ships to save both communities and transfer them to safe areas.

-1882; Russia started war on Jews, they found the only safe place in Palestine and the rest of Muslims majority countries.

-There are 15% of Arab are Christian and 85% of India are Hindus after 1300 of Islamic rule. This is proving that Muslims did not slaughter the non muslims as other cultures used to do in Middle Ages.

References & Documents:

The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain


Muslim Spain and European Culture

http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm

Catholic Encyclopedia: The Crusades

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm

Muslims contribution in sciences:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=28851

As long as you're willing to overlook the part of the Koran that instructs believers to slay nonbelievers with their swords.

Muslims of course can point to the instruction "Don't allow a witch to live" in the Christian New Testament. But Christians haven't been carrying out that instruction for centuries.

 

[klusener]

As long as you're willing to overlook the part of the Koran that instructs believers to slay nonbelievers with their swords.

"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.' After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 19:26-2)

I suppose you accidentally skipped over this part when you were reading the Bible..

 

[misskitty]

Its safe to say that vioence is clearly stated within both religions. Whether you choose to overlook it or not is your own choice.

 

[misskitty]

"Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve" (Surat Al-Baqarah 2:62).

Bilal, your reply was enlightening. However, this portion that I quoted I don't entirely understand. I've read it several times thinking I must have missed something. I don't entirly understand what the Quran is saying about Jew, Christians, and Sabians. Truthfully I don't know what a Sabian is. Could you explain what this means?

 

[selfAdjoint]

"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.' After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 19:26-2)

I suppose you accidentally skipped over this part when you were reading the Bible..

It is controversial whether verses 26 and 27 are quotes from Jesus or from the king in the parable of the talents, which immediately precedes, and seems to continue at verse 25. You could read it either way. Did Jesus really mean that the disciples, who were later proven to be cowards, should gather up romans and levites and slay them? Or was it the king, who like all the kings in Jesus' parables, was channeling God, who vowed to have his enemies killed. Luke reports, you decide.

 

[misskitty]

It might be better to re-read the selected pasage in context. Its amazing how things can be misconstrude when they are not in context.

 

[Janitor]

...I suppose you accidentally skipped over this part when you were reading the Bible..

In the future I will defer to Russ Watters when it comes to defending the Judeo-Christian Bible.

 

[misskitty]

If Spain's Islamic population wants to issue against Bin Laden then let them. Bin Laden has twisted and minipulated the Islamic faith to mean what he wants it to mean, not what it actually stands for. It is easy to see scripture from different religions being misintrepreted because of how it is quoted. It has happened right here in this thread. If the Islamic population wants to denounce Bin Laden for him misinterpretation of the Quarn, then they should.

 

[Bilal]

Sabian = ancient religion believes in one god, its follower still living near the City of Musel in Iraq ….

This verse says that the followers of other religions (Jews, Christian and Sabian) who did good work will get the reward (go to heaven) from Allah (the god) in after life and they should not worry or be sad …..

But I have to be innocent … majority of scholars believe that this verse refer to ancient Jews, Christian …. Who followed similar ideas of Islam ((one god (without son) who has no similarities with human or any creatures and have absolute power))

Follower of Islam believe , that their religion is the ancient version of ‘’true Judaism and Christianity” but it is global and ‘’protected’’

Other few ‘’liberal’’ scholars believe that this verses mean that peaceful non Muslims could go to heaven?
Anyway, no human own the keys of heaven and hell to know what exactly will happen...

Bilal, your reply was enlightening. However, this portion that I quoted I don't entirely understand. I've read it several times thinking I must have missed something. I don't entirly understand what the Quran is saying about Jew, Christians, and Sabians. Truthfully I don't know what a Sabian is. Could you explain what this means?