Spike protein stability, effects etc

[artis]

Before I say something I want to kindly ask any possible participants to refrain from attacking the personal symptom explanation as untrustworthy or made up as some have done before in another thread. Although I will express my personal side in the thread as such, I am looking for answers from peer reviewed papers and accepted science publications to date that could give either a positive or a negative answer to what I am looking for.

In short, I had Covid infection this spring and now got vaccinated with a single dose of mRNA Pfizer.
In both cases (real virus and vaccine) I am experiencing certain identical symptoms which are entirely neurological in nature. In virus case I also experienced physical symptoms but they are beyond the scope of this question.

Now I am thinking that the reason for my identical symptoms could be that both the virus and the vaccine share one similar part namely the infamous S protein. Since I cannot be 100% sure of the connection between the S protein and my symptoms I would like to ask some specific questions.1) What is the current and latest understanding of the toxicity (neurological or otherwise) of the S protein from the virus (called the wild type) vs the one found in the vaccines which is a bit altered from what I read?
I myself did some search and found some explanations but they don't seem to give a detailed answer to my question.
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCRESAHA.121.318902
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7547916/

Also this article from https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/spike-protein-circulating-in-the-vaccinated-what-does-it-mean
That talks about a research where blood tests were done to vaccinated individuals and some small quantities were found of the S in the blood days after injection.

2) So a follow up question , is it safe to assume that in all cases upon intramuscular vaccination only very small quantities of S get into the blood (without talking about cases like accidental intravenous injection) and if true then is it possible even such small quantities could result in certain mild neurological symptoms like cognitive problems (speaking, remembering) or neurological like heart rate, dizziness etc?

Are there any studies about the binding of S to just muscle cells and it not getting into the blood in larger doses?Thanks.

 

[artis]

Back when I was in hospital with Covid I talked there with the staff and almost everyone had been sick with it at some point (this was all prior to vaccine's being available) what I noticed is that most of the folks that had been sick myself including had some shorter or longer lasting neurological problems. (For me they were mild speech problems , mixing words, forgetting etc) also increased heart rate (now known to affect quite a few after infection) etc.
So all of this made me wonder do we know clearly of the link between the S protein , it's dose level, the system it is in (blood, brain etc) and the resulting symptoms which to me seem are mostly (entirely? ) neurological?

This really interests me as I have been through it personally, hopefully others find it worthwhile as well.

 

[jim mcnamara]

Answer to your first question:
https://www.healthline.com/health/intramuscular-injection - liquid can and does end up in blood (or lymph)

Read the short article please.

 

[hutchphd]

Because many of the symptoms of a virus infection are actually caused by the immune response of your body, why do find it surprising that the two responses (to COVID and vaccine) should significantly overlap? It would be odd if they did not. And how will you know whether the vaccine or the COVID infection is responsible ?
Are you in the US? My question for you is why were you unvaccinated in the Spring? One dose of Pfizer offers almost full protection after about 5 days.

 

[artis]

@jim mcnamara not sure which is the "short article" I went through pretty much everything there in that link.

@hutchphd Yes I am aware that many symptoms are actually immune system caused, that being said I have had a fair bit of dealing with respiratory viruses in my life and doctors and medicine in general. The symptoms I am talking about I believe are not from the immune reaction, I had those the first few days post injection like feeling tired and a bit numb head.
The symptoms I am concerned about and which I talk here are neurological. Just to give a few - sudden twitching in certain body parts like fingers, muscles, sudden short movement problems like leg movement. Sudden feeling of heat in hands etc. From cognitive symptoms I would say mixing of words during speech, problems with memory etc. One thing in particular is slightly increased heart rate and pounding where every beat is very heavy for an idle pose for example. and this for me was both with Covid as well as after Pfizer shot. With Covid it lasted for as long as two months after sickness. Even went to cardiologist and did multiple tests, everything from blood to lung scans to echo-cardiography etc. All were fine, in fact good suggesting the symptoms were neurological in nature.
It's now the 9th day after my injection and it seems I am getting a bit better but these symptoms are identical to the ones I had with Covid and purely neurological in nature as physically I feel fine.
I do believe I am rightly concerned about the issue, especially given I am not alone in this but I won't mention any others because it's impossible to prove personal side effects scientifically unless ofcourse one is put under testing and clinical trials.

That is why I am trying to understand whether there is a link between the S protein and these symptoms and personally I tend to think there is, but I am more than welcome to be proven otherwise.

To answer your other questions, No I am not in the US, and I wasn't vaccinated in spring because I am a die hard ANTI- VAXXER! But jokes aside I wasn't vaccinated because I got sick early spring and in my location the vaccine rollout hadn't started yet for my age group. Only for the elderly and med workers.
I missed a few weeks and given my case was medium bad I somewhat regret it but then again that's life. A million probabilities every day before us.

Anyway if there are any good answers to what I am looking I am still waiting.

 

[artis]

https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Current-Research/Coronavirus-and-NINDS/nervous-system

Research shows the many neurological symptoms of COVID-19 are likely a result of the body’s widespread immune response to infection rather than the virus directly infecting the brain or nervous system.

This site also says that neurological symptoms should be associated with widespread immune reaction probably combined with serious inflammation but none of that is present after a vaccine injection especially after 5/6 days of injection. So in my case I am wondering what else could cause it.

 

[hutchphd]

As I mentioned above I had one of the Guillian-Barre syndrome diseases 5yrs ago and followed both flu vaccine and probably a Campylobacter Jejuni infection(often a precursor) . This was a non-trivial onslaught out of the blue and my first serious illness.
I had a great neurologist: we showed that I had an immune-related encephalitis of unknown origin and did not have Multiple Sclerosis or an occult cancer (causing the immune response). He said as long as I didn't get sicker I would likely get well and nothing he could do would make that much difference. Two months later I was much improved, and had variety images of all of my body parts to put on the walls.
Your search for an exact cause seems misguided to me, because IMHO nobody knows nor will it matter. Be glad that you can walk and see and breathe. Get good exercise. Relax and give thanks.
Good Luck !

 

[pinball1970]

Now I am thinking that the reason for my identical symptoms could be that both the virus and the vaccine share one similar part namely the infamous S protein.

Hi Artis.
I think you are genuine and sincere but this is something of a resurrection of the other post which killed the thread.
Listing symptoms with time scales is what the thread was for and I was glad I read those posts before my jabs. The nurse explained possible symptoms but it is more reassuring reading posts from pf members who value objective data.
What would not have been good was reading testimony claiming the jab could damage my CNS in some way. If I read it on YT I would dismiss it but I would take it more seriously on pf.
The other thing is you are making links with overlapping conditions/issues that @hutchphd pointed out.
You had\underlying conditions then got Covid, I would guess (wild guess) that is your big one and two rather than a vaccine that came after that but that is just an opinion. The mentors might remove that part of the post. My making a link is the same as you. However, my guess implies avoiding Covid 19 especially with underlying conditions is a good idea, get vaccinated. Your implication is that the Vaccine could affect your CNS negatively. I think this is why the mentors closed the thread.

 

[artis]

@pinball1970 Well truth be told in that thread the mentors got overly emotional I think, I was met with some rudeness rarely if ever seen here on PF. Now I think it was unfair, because that thread was not about specific peer reviewed science but instead about vaccine post injection side effects. Yes my bad I made a mistake suggesting the caution before out of clinic vaccinations which even though perfectly reasonable gets into politics (everything is politics these days i guess) but everything else was my genuine reaction to the injection. To close down a thread after the first negative reaction and to then ask scientific references for it from me is honestly ridiculous.

And here I think is the problem , you said it best yourself, the wish to hear only good news, but as you I hope would admit such wish is not scientific in nature

The nurse explained possible symptoms but it is more reassuring reading posts from pf members who value objective data.
What would not have been good was reading testimony claiming the jab could damage my CNS in some way.

The whole vaccine rollout including production is at this point less than two years, for heaven's sake any big time science takes much longer before every last bit is known. Studies are still ongoing and lately a few more side effects have been added , yes rare as they might be. Like GBS for the Janssen vaccine.


I think more even though rare side effects will get listed as time goes on and that is just normal. So while "the jury is still out" I was saddened that getting a negative review gets a thread closed. The effects I told are real and I don't have underlying neurological problems.
Which is why I was making this thread to possibly get more information about our current understanding of how exactly the spike protein affects our body and in what doses, because we know that it gets into the blood and even BBB for those who have been infected, we also know that it is in the blood of those that have been vaccinated but at much lower doses from the tests that have been done so far.
The major viewpoint as of now from what I read is that it is considered harmless but then I still have the question what else is causing my symptoms given they are equal in both Covid and vaccine.
No clear answer has been given so far.

I mean there are articles of doctors also pointing out that neurological symptoms/side effects do happen with these vaccines but I will not post them here not to derail the thread which is mostly about understanding current science about the S protein and also because due to the high tension and climate now I don't want to get shut down once more with censorship.

 

[jim mcnamara]

We cannot help you effectively. You really should see a qualified health professional.

You assume all kinds of things about vaccines that are not supported by Science. And appear to dismiss everything else. I can see why people come to conclusions like these. But that does not make it helpful to you, does it? It seems it is clearly frustrating you.

Covid is a REALLY nasty disease that has been labelled with "phases" - like asymptomatic and so on. You can have a mild case of Covid - then come down with a nasty enduring condition. You are underestimating how awful Covid really is.

Your description of symptoms post-covid perfectly matches what sounds like PASC (long haul Covid). You had Covid before any vaccine. Then. You got enduring CNS symptoms. This is NOT a good thing for you. You got a vaccine after developing symptoms.

I repeat - CNS symptoms are not something to ignore. Get qualified medical help. CNS problems seldom resolve quickly.

Regarding S protein, also called the RBD, this paper was one of many that showed how vaccines are effective at preventing disease.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41...9FqY07fiVWNQ1x9cxalofl_T1DO9ZSf4quTupAbgSQ_EI

If I had your symptoms I would start learning about long haul Covid. Here is a nice study about it:
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003773
A lot of patients have long term symptoms, more than 90 days after a mild case for example.

-- after you see a physician.

 

[artis]

We cannot help you effectively. You really should see a qualified health professional.

I am ok in this regard I have doctors at hand at the moment I'm using some simple drugs to stop the excessive heart beat., not seeking medical help here but some scientific possible answers as to how this might arise.

Covid is a REALLY nasty disease that has been labelled with "phases" - like asymptomatic and so on. You can have a mild case of Covid - then come down with a nasty enduring condition. You are underestimating how awful Covid really is.

Been there , done that! But just because Covid is awful and I know that first hand doesn't mean we should flat out deny vaccines having any adverse effects should we?

Unless ofcourse you or someone else for that matter want to say that every single one of the neurological symptoms reported in VAERS and elsewhere are misconceptions and fantasies including mine.
As I said I am 99% certain personally (yes personally not scientifically but I do know my body over the years and doctors past) that my neurological symptoms are vaccine induced. I had the same symptoms after Covid yes , for about 2 months, then they gradually went away, before my shot I was fine for the last 3/4 months.
I even got a common cold after Covid and even that didn't bring my Covid symptoms back.
Also these neurological symptoms are very specific and not immune system based so there is very little else to blame here.
One very Covid specific neurological symptom is increased/irregular heartbeat and palpitations, even my cardiologist confirmed that many people have such problems after Covid. I had it too, then it stopped and went away. Now I see people who have never had Covid report the same after the vaccine.

By the way I called my family doctor, when he heard my side effects he simply said "The immunity you will get is much more valuable than the effects you are experiencing now" I mean that was the same level of denial I am experiencing here on PF and I just want to point that out. It is not scientific and anti common sense.

The reason why it's so easy to dismiss these claims is because it's so hard to prove them. Every one here who knows something about medicine understands that of all symptoms neurological ones are among the hardest to prove if at all. I know that for a fact because even if I say underwent all kinds of testing all they could see physically is increased heart rate and palpitations but we all know those can also result from other drugs even from high levels of stress. It's a dead end.
My logic here is simple, I have them, others have them, and people have them both after Covid as well as after vaccination without having prior Covid. And the part that links here is the S. But as I said this is a side effect that is effectively impossible to prove. Maybe the more severe neurological defects like facial paresis are easier to prove.

Hate to sound like a crackpot as I dislike them myself but I wasn't expecting a consensus here as well as elsewhere that reads between the lines something like this "Covid vaccines are 100% ideal and no problems can result for anyone whatsoever, period , dare to say something, and we will call you names and dismiss you"
I never put forth a claim that I claim something 100% I am just saying there is a very highly probable link that would be hard to disprove and foolish to ignore

 

[jim mcnamara]

You are missing the point. We are NOT saying anything about your symptomology or health. This is not a personal attack. We are commenting on the fact that you should not go to great lengths to assert something that does not have simple data to support it. You are doing this by skirting around the following:

Paraphrasing Occams Razor says 'the simplest solution is probably the correct one'. Are we okay with this concept?

You cannot disprove a hypothesis, you replace it with one that works better. I cannot find any case studies let alone larger ones that support your hypothesis.

Let's see why:
Yes, there are some reported CNS problems with vaccine. 1 case for every 1,000,000 vaccinations:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/rr/rr4512.pdf We agree that they exist. Very rare.

There are a huge number of Covid cases that result in CNS symptoms that persist, like heart palpitations and other neurological symptoms arise in about 37% of patients with long term symptoms, so about 2-3% of Covid cases. In Latvia (is this correct?) this works out to about 2% of 161641 cases report = 3232 PASC patients with symptoms like yours. You did develop the symptoms post-Covid. This is not rare.

So if you had to pick the likely candidate for your problems which would you choose?
1 in 1 million is a remote chance. Not impossible. Is it the best choice? What about combining the two
2% cases plus 1 in 1 million. Even more unlikely.

PASC patients often have clusters of symptoms not just one.

Why do you need to dig up an alternate hypothesis about S proteins? I cannot find anything to support it.

You already have an answer. BTW heart palpitations can be due to other than neurologic faults. Have you had an echo cardiogram and an EKG? What did they indicate. What I am asking is if cardiomyalgia was ever mentioned to you. Covid sequelae include Cardiomyalgia (heart muscle damage).

Non-technical read about cardiomyopathy post Covid:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...eart inflammation:sem.ga:p:RG:GM:gen:PTN:FY21

I've done the best I can with this. No more comments. Please stop making up stuff. Thank you.

 

[artis]

I've done the best I can with this. No more comments. Please stop making up stuff. Thank you.

Well you see you are doing everything you can to minimize what I am talking about and we both don't have good proof for that. Yes agree on Occam's razor, but in this case it's not like you argued against what I'm saying with a much better explanation.

Just to make matters clear , yes it seems we both agree that Covid causes among other things neurological symptoms that either stay for some time or in other cases continue as persistent damage.
Also I want to point out that NO, after Covid as already said I did rigorous testing and my heart was fine physically, eventually also the neurological problems stopped. I was ok again. I was sporting and riding my bike just fine.
Now after my injection these symptoms are here again, especially the heart one.

Yes, there are some reported CNS problems with vaccine. 1 case for every 1,000,000 vaccinations:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/rr/rr4512.pdf We agree that they exist. Very rare.

Excuse me this report is not about Covid vaccines , it's dated to 1996.
Not sure whether this is a error or a joke but all the known public adverse effect sites for Covid vaccine side effects give a much higher than 1 in million adverse effects for almost anything including myocarditis, let alone neurological effects. Here is some of that sweet scientific references everyone here is so "up in arms" about. Since public reporting sites are hated here just as much as I am now, I'm referring to a official study.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34281357/

According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, myocarditis/pericarditis rates are ≈12.6 cases per million doses of second-dose mRNA vaccine among individuals 12 to 39 years of age

That is for myocarditis, the neurological effects many of whom never make it into the tables as their not as serious or long lasting are higher.
Yes Latvia would be correct.
https://www.zva.gov.lv/sites/default/files/inline-files/ZVA saņemtie blakusparādību ziņojumi_2009_1.pdf

Even though it's in latvian it shows the local doctor submitted side effects list for the two mRNA vaccines + Johnson's Janssen one.
Keep in mind that people here are lazy at reporting mild side effects so the real number is definitely higher. In the category for tachycardia , palpitations etc after vaccine there are about 120 reports so far. I personally know two more,me and my mother.
We have about 1 million vaccinated in total. But this particular side effects list is for a lower number than the total 1 million because only 3 vaccines are taken into account.
Sure it is easy to dismiss these claims (thousands of them) because the patients told them to their doctor and there isn't other scientific ways to prove themBut I give up , there is no point of me arguing common sense here, it feels as if you (not just you personally but the staff here in general) are on a payroll for censorship either very fanatic about the new found "religion of hope" and as in every religion the minority is silenced.
I know personally that my symptoms are vaccine related, and I am willing to bet my money that the spike protein will be found to be not as innocent as some now think.
I alone know a few people who had neurological effects from this vaccine, one can only speculate the number in total. Never in my life have I had anything close to these symptoms from any other virus or disease.
Given this thread will most likely be locked away I decided to speak my mind freely but that doesn't mean I am lying.

One last thing if I may, this denial attitude and lack of trust is exactly what is destroying the public's trust in science these days and limiting vaccine uptake.
Vaccines in general are good and have saved countless lives that is a FACT and I am not denying that, but denying that this vaccine was rushed (for good reasons yes) and has not yet been fully tested to gather all the possible side effects data which normally takes years is wrong. It takes time and lots of effort to prove these more nuanced side effects especially if they don't progress to being life threatening. Yet here you are doing everything you can to prove me wrong before the real science has had the time to settle these nuances. And yes I do reserve the 1 to 5% chance of these symptoms being not vaccine related, but everything to me points that they are.

 

[hutchphd]

I absolutely agree with @jim mcnamara. If you are seriously affected you should seek medical attention: there are some good differential diagnoses available for some treatable disease for which time is of the essence.
I am in no way denying your sincerity but in the words of the good Dr Osler "A physician who treats himself has a fool for a patient".
Anecdotal medicine is never a good idea but I did hear of one guy who (you fill in the blank...)

​

 

[artis]

@hutchphd Thanks for the good advice and as of now my symptoms are mild/medium , not worse than when had Covid, I will just monitor myself and if needed call an ambulance and get medical attention.

I am only saddened by the fact that we are now in a religious state whereby daring to mention certain phenomena is strictly forbidden or discouraged. Yes that I dislike and even fear given I come from a totalitarian regime where voicing certain well based concerns was forbidden also or at least met with fury and anger

 

[Dale]

Now I am thinking that the reason for my identical symptoms could be that both the virus and the vaccine share one similar part namely the infamous S protein.

While it is possible, it would be highly unlikely, as described below. A more likely explanation is that the identical symptoms are due to similar immune processes that are triggered.

What is the current and latest understanding of the toxicity (neurological or otherwise) of the S protein from the virus (called the wild type) vs the one found in the vaccines which is a bit altered from what I read?

I don't think that there is a definitive answer to this specific question. The wild-type S protein has been shown to have effects on the vascular endothelium in many tissues. This includes, of course, the lungs, but also the heart and the brain. In the brain the wild-type S protein has been shown to disrupt the blood-brain barrier and cross into the brain tissue.

So we do have observed biological effects from the wild-type, but "biological effect" is different from "toxicity". This could not be studied in Covid-infected animals since the infection would confound any attempt to measure spike protein toxicity. So it would require a direct administration of the spike proteins. The only study I could find on this was done in tadpoles ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34216962/ ) and showed oxidative stress at levels of 100 ng/mL.

The mRNA vaccine induced spike proteins have some key differences with the wild-type spike proteins. These are largely designed to reduce possible toxicity by making the protein attach more firmly to the cell membrane. This difference reduces the amount of circulating vaccine spike protein while simultaneously enhancing the immune response. In other words, the vaccine-type protein should be less toxic and more immunogenic than the wild-type protein. I say "should be" because there is no direct comparison that I am aware of.

One thing to notice is that the mRNA vaccines, by design, do not produce a lot of free spike protein. Average levels are substantially less than 50 pg/mL at all times after the first injection and completely undetectable after the second injection. Even 50 pg/mL is 2000 times less than the lowest dose in the tadpole toxicity study. So vaccine induced spike protein toxicity symptoms are far less likely than vaccine induced immune response symptoms.

is it possible even such small quantities could result in certain mild neurological symptoms like cognitive problems (speaking, remembering) or neurological like heart rate, dizziness etc?

All of those can be immune response symptoms. There is no indication that the vaccine spike protein itself could produce such symptoms.

is it safe to assume that in all cases upon intramuscular vaccination only very small quantities of S get into the blood (without talking about cases like accidental intravenous injection)

The mRNA vaccines do not contain any spike protein. The vaccine does get into the blood stream where it is destroyed by the liver. The spike protein is only produced when the vaccine gets into the muscle cell. So the route of vaccine spike protein getting in the blood is after it is produced by the muscle cells. Most of the protein stays in the muscle cells or on the cell membrane, and only a little is released as described above. And even then not if the injected person already has antibodies.

The symptoms I am talking about I believe are not from the immune reaction, I had those the first few days post injection like feeling tired and a bit numb head.

I don't think that you can know that. Immune responses have time scales on the order of years, not just days. Furthermore, you cannot disentangle the vaccine from your history with Covid. Neurological symptoms are often associated with long-Covid, so it is entirely possible that your immune response to the vaccine is exacerbating long-Covid symptoms.

Furthermore, since you have previously had Covid it is likely that you had some antibodies already present before the first injection. Those antibodies would have bound to any vaccine spike proteins that escaped the muscle cells. This is why even that <50 pg/mL response is absent after the second injection. Thus your prior infection makes a direct toxic response essentially impossible and an immune response even more likely.

Now I think it was unfair, because that thread was not about specific peer reviewed science but instead about vaccine post injection side effects.

That was perfectly fair. This site is intended for peer-reviewed science, not personal anecdotes about side effects and speculative hypotheses about their cause. A bunch of anecdotes does not give data. For personal experience, speak to your doctor. For science, we can discuss here.

And here I think is the problem , you said it best yourself, the wish to hear only good news, but as you I hope would admit such wish is not scientific in nature

That is not at all a correct characterization of the issue. This is not about wishing to hear good news, but about requiring discussions to be based on scientific evidence. Not personal anecdotes and speculation.

But just because Covid is awful and I know that first hand doesn't mean we should flat out deny vaccines having any adverse effects should we?

That is not happening here. We are simply requiring that whatever statements are made regarding vaccine side effects must be consistent with the professional scientific literature on the topic. Personal speculation is not permitted, as is standard everywhere on PF. The issue is that you specifically and individually are making unsubstantiated claims that are not consistent with the literature as part of this discussion. We are not denying vaccine adverse effects, we are denying your specific unsubstantiated claims on the topic.

In fact, neurological symptoms have been transparently reported by the drug developers from the beginning: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577. They are well known, and not at all denied. Given that even your symptoms were temporary, they are considered part of the normal recognized progression of a safe and effective vaccine.

So the issue is not a denial of the presence of neurological symptoms post-vaccination. The issue is the completely speculative claim about the mechanism that is being flat out denied. Your suggested mechanism has no basis in fact and is highly unlikely based on what we do know.

I am 99% certain personally (yes personally not scientifically but I do know my body over the years and doctors past) that my neurological symptoms are vaccine induced.

Here is an example. You cannot be 99% certain of something like this. If you are considering yourself as a single case then N=1 simply cannot provide 99% certainty of anything. If you are considering yourself in context as part of the general population then there is no evidence that can justify this certainty and in fact the general evidence is opposed to it. To claim such certainly about something that is not supported in the literature is pure personal speculation and does not belong on PF.

Never in my life have I had anything close to these symptoms from any other virus or disease.
Given this thread will most likely be locked away I decided to speak my mind freely but that doesn't mean I am lying.

It is a different disease, so I am not sure why you would expect the symptoms to be like they were for other virus or disease. That still does not mean that it is a toxic response to the spike protein instead of an immune response. This has nothing to do with lying and everything to do with personal speculation.

but denying that this vaccine was rushed (for good reasons yes) and has not yet been fully tested to gather all the possible side effects data which normally takes years is wrong

This is incorrect. The vaccine was not rushed nor were the studies. We have at this point more than a century of experience with many different vaccines for many different diseases using many different technologies. We know the time period during which vaccine-induced side effects appear, it is weeks not years. That time period was doubled as the required minimum follow-up time for the emergency use authorization. And even more data was required for the full approval.

Normally these studies do take years, but that is due primarily to recruitment not due to the follow-up period needed to prove vaccine safety. Recruitment was very fast for these vaccine trials, but that does not imply that the data was rushed at all.

Claims like this are simple misinformation. You cannot claim victimhood here when you post personal speculation and misinformation and your thread gets closed down. That is part of the normal process here at PF and is not particular to Covid discussions.

But I give up , there is no point of me arguing common sense here, it feels as if you (not just you personally but the staff here in general) are on a payroll for censorship either very fanatic about the new found "religion of hope" and as in every religion the minority is silenced.

This is probably the most standard response from we get from crackpots of all varieties, we are rather immune to it. Yes, we unapologetically censor opinions and claims that are not consistent with the professional scientific literature. We consistently do that everywhere on PF and we do so very publicly. This is not specific to Covid discussions, but is a fundamental part of PF.

It takes time and lots of effort to prove these more nuanced side effects especially if they don't progress to being life threatening.

Which is another reason that it makes no sense to claim 99% certainty. All we can say is that at this point there is no data to support your suspicions and some data that makes the idea highly unlikely. With your previous exposure to Covid, the current scientific data would indicate you likely had no circulating spike protein post-vaccination even at the ~1 pg/mL level.

The thread will remain closed