The Math Myth on Booktv/C-Span

[Khatti]

This may not be the right forum for this particular issue, but this is the one I'm comfortable posting on. I finished watching this program an hour or so ago, and it seemed to be the sort of thing Physics Forum posters would find interesting--and certainly have opinions on!https://www.c-span.org/video/?409118-1/andrew-hacker-discusses-math-myth

 

[DaveC426913]

A brief summary of the content would probably get more interest.
What is the Math Myth?
Who is Andrew Hacker?
What are his views?

 

[Khatti]

A brief summary of the content would probably get more interest.
What is the Math Myth?
Who is Andrew Hacker?
What are his views?

Andrew Hacker is a professor of Political Science at Queens College in NYC. The Math Myth is a book of his that was published recently. His view is that attempting to teach higher mathematics to eighty percent of high school and college students is a waste of time at best, and counter-productive at worst.

 

[micromass]

I really don't have the time to watch an hour long argument on this. Can you write down what his main arguments are for this? What about those students who will need mathematics later in their life? Does he also argue that we shouldn't teach history and biology, because they're also useless for at least 80% of the students?

 

[Khatti]

I really don't have the time to watch an hour long argument on this. Can you write down what his main arguments are for this? What about those students who will need mathematics later in their life? Does he also argue that we shouldn't teach history and biology, because they're also useless for at least 80% of the students?

How about I give you the link for the NY Times editorial The Math Myth is based upon:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.html?_r=0

 

[micromass]

Oh, I read that already. Instead of cutting algebra, they should start by looking at other western countries where this does not seem to be much of a problem. Seriously, in europe we all learn the quadratic equation and other polynomials. Students find it hard, but nobody is thinking of dropping an essential subject such as math. And certainly no student is failing high school because of high school algebra here.

 

[fresh_42]

What upsets me about his statements is the implicit assumption of students' stupidity and that higher math - whatever he means that is - „Is Algebra Necessary?“, NYTimes, 2012, is something difficult or unnecessary. I just answered on a thread about differential equations and it is astonishing how wide spread such systems are. In any field, including political science. It's a waste of time to tell students how difficult math is and to get them believe that bad marks are cool instead of teaching them the natural evolution of math right from the start.

I very much assume that all of his opinions can be reduced to the desire to sell his books. I remember a guest lecture of Konrad Zuse. The whole auditorium was packed and everybody wanted to hear some of those stories from the past. Instead he spoke about his actual scientific work which was, sad to say this, neither interesting nor relevant. The entire event has been quite embarrassing in the end. Hacker strongly reminds on that. Only, that he swims on the overall opinion that "higher" math isn't needed in real life other than Zuse who at least had own ideas. This is cheap, wrong and embarrassing.

 

[jack476]

I kind of agree with the conclusion, but not on the implications he draws from it.

I think that for the vast majority of high school students, higher mathematics is a waste of time. They have no interest in it, they will never be in a situation where they will need it, and they will never want to be in a situation that calls for it. But they're not really the ones who matter. Maybe only one student out of dozens goes on to work in STEM, but the world really needs that one individual out of dozens, and exposure to advanced subjects is what allows people in that small group to discover their interests and abilities.

It's the same with art, music, shop class, and social studies. Say you've got a curriculum that consists of (all at the college preparatory level) calculus, world politics, theater, band, shop, and painting. Taken individually, you might very well find that only one student out of ten gets any long-term educational benefit to being in those courses. But taken in the aggregate, that means that six out of ten students will finish the academic year with a specialized interest. That means that it was worth despite those courses individually having only a small effect.

 

[houlahound]

So a guy who has no qualification in science, math and engineering and is not employed in those fields has an opinion those subjects aren't relevant... How nice.

Precisely why the west is forced to concede to the Eastern tigers in those fields. Their kids do the math, we tell ours is not important.

 

[Khatti]

Precisely why the west is forced to concede to the Eastern tigers in those fields. Their kids do the math, we tell ours is not important.

Those same Eastern tigers are more prone to suicide due to academic failure. Would you like to add this Asian practice to our academic traditions?

http://www.voicesofyouth.org/fr/posts/student-suicides-in-south-korea

 

[houlahound]

Not downplaying the seriousness of the claim but the statistics are very weak. Following the links this is about as rigorous as they get, absolutely nothing to link cause to math.

When making such an emotional claim I think better data and sources should be used. The claim is not supported from your link, more like hearsay.

"Young people in South Korea are a chronically unhappy group. A recent survey found them to be — for the third year in a row — the unhappiest subset among countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The Education Ministry in Seoul said 146 students committed suicide last year, including 53 in junior high and 3 in elementary school."

 

[micromass]

Those same Eastern tigers are more prone to suicide due to academic failure. Would you like to add this Asian practice to our academic traditions?

http://www.voicesofyouth.org/fr/posts/student-suicides-in-south-korea

So you're implying that the US should either choose to do away with math or its students will commit suicide? Poor america.

 

[Khatti]

So you're implying that the US should either choose to do away with math or its students will commit suicide? Poor america.

A slightly more subtle message may be that academic excellence is not without its downside, and that it is irresponsible to not consider that downside in this sort of discussion.

 

[micromass]

A slightly more subtle message may be that academic excellence is not without its downside, and that it is irresponsible to not consider that downside in this sort of discussion.

Of course. I have criticized the academic system a lot of times already. Especially the US system is rotten to the core. But eliminating mathematics from the curriculum? That's no solution.

 

[Bystander]

A slightly more subtle message may be that academic excellence is not without its downside, and that it is irresponsible to not consider that downside in this sort of discussion.

Laissez faire "academics?"

 

[houlahound]

For book author in the OP, the upside is that there is a downside.

 

[Khatti]

But eliminating mathematics from the curriculum? That's no solution.

Who exactly is talking about doing away with the math curriculum? Hacker himself claims that all forms of higher math are necessary to twenty percent of the jobs out there. The implication though, is that eighty percent of all jobs do not require higher math. It occurs to me--ironically--that no one is looking at this situation mathematically. The debate is not whether we need arithmetic and mathematics, all of us do, the question is how much of each everyone of us needs. Beethoven and Bach both needed to know how to divide time into small, and often complicated, units, but neither of them needed to know how to do a quadratic equation.

 

[houlahound]

My guess is 100‰ of jobs depend on higher mathematics to enable people to do those jobs with a lower level of mathematics.

 

[micromass]

Who exactly is talking about doing away with the math curriculum? Hacker himself claims that all forms of higher math are necessary to twenty percent of the jobs out there. The implication though, is that eighty percent of all jobs do not require higher math. It occurs to me--ironically--that no one is looking at this situation mathematically. The debate is not whether we need arithmetic and mathematics, all of us do, the question is how much of each everyone of us needs. Beethoven and Bach both needed to know how to divide time into small, and often complicated, units, but neither of them needed to know how to do a quadratic equation.

How many jobs require the study of literature, history, philosophy, arts, biology, physics, chemistry? Most of the jobs don't require any of this. So let's remove these things too.

 

[houlahound]

Give ALL kids the opportunity to do the best and highest of everything or we betray them their heritage.

 

[Khatti]

How many jobs require the study of literature, history, philosophy, arts, biology, physics, chemistry? Most of the jobs don't require any of this. So let's remove these things too.

Physics, chemistry, and even biology would be in that twenty percent class that require higher math. If the implication is that the young should be introduced to all these things I agree. Also I can appreciate the need to be on the lookout for another Srinivasa Ramanujan. But the time that Hacker is talking about is during late-high school and college, a time when most students know what they're going to do for a career.

 

[houlahound]

I doubt many high schoolers know what they will want or be doing when they are 50.

 

[micromass]

Physics, chemistry, and even biology would be in that twenty percent class that require higher math. If the implication is that the young should be introduced to all these things I agree. Also I can appreciate the need to be on the lookout for another Srinivasa Ramanujan. But the time that Hacker is talking about is during late-high school and college, a time when most students know what they're going to do for a career.

So you agree that in late-high school students should not learn about history, literature, arts, music, etc.? (unless of course in the unlikely case that they will need it for a career later).

 

[Khatti]

So you agree that in late-high school students should not learn about history, literature, arts, music, etc.? (unless of course in the unlikely case that they will need it for a career later).

I never had children of my own, and it has been...a long time since I was in high school. But by the time I was a sophomore I was not taking any classes in history, literature and music that weren't elective.

 

[Khatti]

I doubt many high schoolers know what they will want or be doing when they are 50.

And I doubt that college calculus class they took thirty years before is going to be the thing that opens a whole new world to them.

 

[micromass]

I never had children of my own, and it has been...a long time since I was in high school. But by the time I was a sophomore I was not taking any classes in history, literature and music that weren't elective.

Well, that's just sad that these classes are not mandatory in US high schools.

You see education as preparation for a job. I think that's the wrong view. Education should be more than that. Education should make you a well-formed individual. Knowing the history of the human species is just something everybody needs to know. Knowing the theory of evolution is something everybody needs to know. In the same way, mathematics is one of the most successful endeavours of the human mind. Everybody needs to know this.

 

[houlahound]

And I doubt that college calculus class they took thirty years before is going to be the thing that opens a whole new world to them.

For many it does, and lucky for the rest they do.

 

[houlahound]

Langauge warning, truth;

 

[gleem]

There are several critiques of Hacker's book and /or his op-ed in the NY Times by professional mathematicians and/or educators.

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt..._great_example_of_mathematics_illiteracy.html

http://alittlestats.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-wrong-way-to-target-math-part-i.html

http://devlinsangle.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-math-myth-that-permeates-math-myth.html

Paraphrasing Johann Wolfgang von Goethe: If your take a man as he is you make him worse. If you take as he should be he will become what he can be.

Hacker is a fool as a mentor. He would set a stage for a person to miss their true calling because they were unprepared to take advantage of an opportunity when it presented itself. If for some reason one does not need or use this knowledge, it still develops the person. Most fifteen year olds as noted above have barely an inkling of what they want to do.

We as educators should set the standards necessary for success. Do not listen to the students cry's of pain. Do not acknowledge the students lack of confidence. Goad the student to "suck it up" and deal with it for his/her own good. Math may look hard or difficult but as any good coach would do is badger his student to find the inner strength to excel. At the worst it shows what they are capable of and at the best it may show a future that they perhaps never dreamt of. I cannot think of anything that I took as a student that did not have some, albeit maybe small, beneficial or useful value. Compared to the some of the anguishes and difficulties of everyday existence the problems posed by any courses in college or high school that had minimal value were minuscule, in retrospect.

Remember, if you do not know about something then you do not know if you will need it. One of the article cited above had a link to a poli-sci article where a potential applicant for a job was asked if they had a course in statistics. So you never know when a math course might be to your advantage to have taken.

Today in many areas of interest is the subject of BIG DATA; medicine, politics economics, retail, insurance, marketing and those are not rocket sciences. If you do not know the math you are dependent on others and susceptible to their possible incompetent analysis and/or misinterpretations.

Sorry I got carried away. But I am currently helping my grandson with his math and I see his attempt to avoid the work and concentration necessary for success in this subject. It is taking too much time from more fun things to do.

 

[micromass]

That was a great post gleem!

Some nice parts from Hacker's book for the people who didn't read the articles:

Along with phenomena like earthquakes and cyclones, nature also has some numbers that control or explain how the world works. One of them is pi, whose 3.14159 goes on indefinitely, at least as far as we know.

As far as we know? Really Andrew?

He also apparently argues that Gaussian distributions are not really necessary for actuaries... Not sure what he wants to cover in his "citizen statistics" course if he thinks the Gaussian distribution is way too complicated.

If Andrew Hacker's knowledge of mathematics is characteristic for the general population, then yes, there is a big problem.

 

[houlahound]

on what authority does he argue is he is not even qualified?

sounds like he is tapping into people's math anxiety to sell books.

do not let this man near any public policy switches.

 

[whitsona2]

I get this general thing from students all the time. So, lately, I've been playing Devils advocate-- ok, we will only give math to those who are likely to need it. Let's see, statistically scientists are still most likely to be white males--so let's start there... wow! This is saving us so much time and money already! Awesome!

 

[Mark44]

From @gleem's post, the Keith Devlin article was excellent!

On page 70, he presents a question from an admissions test for selective high schools. A player throws two dice and the same number comes up on both. The question asks the student to choose the probability that the two dice sum to 9 from the list 0, 1/6, 2/9, 1/2, 1/3. Hacker’s problem is that the student is supposed to answer this in 90 seconds.

Apparently (according to Devlin), Hacker's complaint about this problem is the time limitation. However, it shouldn't take someone a full 90 seconds to realize that both dice show the same number, with the sum being 9.

He also apparently argues that Gaussian distributions are not really necessary for actuaries

Gaussian distributions are waaaaaay too hard. Actuaries should learn about normal distrubutions, but what use will they ever make of Gaussians?

 

[pasmith]

From @gleem's post, the Keith Devlin article was excellent!
Apparently (according to Devlin), Hacker's complaint about this problem is the time limitation. However, it shouldn't take someone a full 90 seconds to realize that both dice show the same number, with the sum being 9.

Even if one missed the parity shortcut, it shouldn't take 90 seconds to exhaustively list the four ways in which two six-sided dice can sum to 9 and note that none of them is a double.

 

[ShayanJ]

Even if one missed the parity shortcut, it shouldn't take 90 seconds to exhaustively list the four ways in which two six-sided dice can sum to 9 and note that none of them is a double.

Well, maybe Hacker does find a double!