UCLA campus police torture student, in the library

[0rthodontist]

I can't hear any audible tasing sound anywhere in the film.

 

[Evo]

You say it shows him up the top of the starts with no one looking. 3.08 on is where he is tazed/has a fit and screams and where he is clearly in cuffs, and from then on he is dragged down the stairs where people crowd around them.

Uhm no, he is sitting at the top of the stairs. The other people in the other room are oblivious to them.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

I'm pretty sure everyone was crowded around them gasping when they tased him with a few people saying "Stop it" and "That's cruel" etc. And hence there was a person filming it on his camera.

 

[chroot]

You can't hear a stun gun when it's actually pressed against a person and discharged. You can only hear it when it's discharged into the air, usually as a threat.

- Warren

 

[Evo]

I'm pretty sure everyone was crowded around them gasping when they tased him with a few people saying "Stop it" and "That's cruel" etc. And hence there was a person filming it on his camera.

Nope, go back and look at that clip again. 3:08 at the top of the stairs. Nothing, Calm. No one near them. Two officers.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

You can't hear a stun gun when it's actually pressed against a person and discharged. You can only hear it when it's discharged into the air, usually as a threat.

- Warren

Thanks this confirms something I was curious about. You can hear the 2nd stun gun crackling for multiple seconds but I wasn't sure whether or not it was pressed for all those seconds. Since the crackling was heard after the scream that suggests that he was tasered the cop left it on for a while in the air.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

@Evo

Thats because the guy is filming it from behind one of those cubicles. it's to the side of the crowd of people. Look at 1:56 there is a crowd, then from there is moves to the side to get a better view. You can only see 2 cops and a student leaning on the cubicle but sure enough next to the student on the cubicle there is a crowd. Once they start to pull him down the stairs the cameraman moves in behind the crowd and follows them and the crowd down.

 

[Gokul43201]

Go to 3.08 minutes into the video, you'll see what I mean. Just watch from that point. NO TAZING.

1. There is a tazing at 3:13, when you hear three screams from the student, identical to the three screams emitted after each of the first two tazings. Again, listen to the screams (00:30 to 00:33, 1:45 to 1:48 and 3:13 to 3:16) and tell me that the third time was just the guy yelling.

2. Even if the above were just a remarkable coincidence or that the guy was just incredibly skilled, there's still the matter of the second tazing (at 1:45), where it appears that the guy is already handcuffed. You claim he isn't. Can you tell me at what instants in this video you can see the guy's free hands?

3. You said the film shows him kicking as he's being taken down the stairs. I don't see that.

4. Your insistence that there were no more than two tazings essentially contradicts the admission of the police that there were multiple tazings.

Edit: 5. Furthermore, if there wasn't a tazing at 3:14, as you insist, then the kicking of the guy would be in contradiction to the police briefing that claimed he was limp.

 

[Evo]

@Evo

Thats because the guy is filming it from behind one of those cubicles. it's to the side of the crowd of people. Look at 1:56 there is a crowd, then from there is moves to the side to get a better view. You can only see 2 cops and a student leaning on the cubicle but sure enough next to the student on the cubicle there is a crowd. Once they start to pull him down the stairs the cameraman moves in behind the crowd and follows them and the crowd down.

No, when you look at the footage starting at 3:08, you see a bunch of people milling about a room and one person at the top of the stairs surrounded by 2 police officers. They grab his arms and he bucks up.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

I see 2 coppers at 3:08 grabbing his arms with 1 person leaning on the cubicle thing. Then he bucks and they start to take him down the stairs after the bucking.

Off to the left there is a crowd, just outside of the video though.

 

[moose]

186 posts into the thread and this heated battle is still on topic without being moved to another forum. Amazing. Good job everyone ! I like the investigatory style of some of the arguments being presented.

I haven't seen the video yet. If the facts: he resisted/didn't comply, are true then I think this is being blown out of proportion.

 

[Evo]

1. There is a tazing at 3:13, when you hear three screams from the student, identical to the three screams emitted after each of the first two tazings. Again, listen to the screams (00:30 to 00:33, 1:45 to 1:48 and 3:13 to 3:16) and tell me that the third time was just the guy yelling.

Honestly, I can't tell what he's going on about.

2. Even if the above were just a remarkable coincidence or that the guy was just incredibly skilled, there's still the matter of the second tazing (at 1:45), where it appears that the guy is already handcuffed. You claim he isn't. Can you tell me at what instants in this video you can see the guy's free hands?

Since I've never commented on this, you're making this up.

3. You said the film shows him kicking as he's being taken down the stairs. I don't see that.

Look again.

4. Your insistence that there were no more than two tazings essentially contradicts the admission of the police that there were multiple tazings.

I have never said how many times the guy might have been shocked. Please quote the post numbers where I said so.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7575/grabbinglm3.png

Here is a pic I took. I highlighted red to show that the policemen are clearly grabbing the boy already.

After that he does his little jump and then the coppers start to take him down as the -crowd- (off screen to the right) falls in behind them.

 

[Evo]

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7575/grabbinglm3.png

Here is a pic I took. I highlighted red to show that the policemen are clearly grabbing the boy already.

After that he does his little jump and then the coppers start to take him down as the -crowd- (off screen to the right) falls in behind them.

I see two red circles.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

I see two red circles.

The other circle is the other cop, with his arm around the other arm. (like in that lil diagram I did in MSpaint a bit back).

 

[Evo]

What I want to know is how much money this freeking idiot is costing all of us. He NEEDED his student ID. He's a MORON.

What the hell was he thinking? Or was he intentionally trying to cause trouble?

He has no defense. He is wrong., End of argument. If the campus police want harsher methods to deal with students as a result of this, blame this idiot.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1508/positionir7.png

Okay, that's the position the guy is in. The grey are where the policeman's arms go. The policeman on the left slides his right arm in, and the one of the right slides his left arm in. This completely immobilizes his arms. He cannot pull his arms apart because of the cuffs and he cannot bring them closer because of the policeman's arms. This is why his arms stay perfectly still when he kicks. Since I suck at drawing I couldn't draw in the policemen properly but this is my old diagram which shows the view of someone's back in that position with the yellow representing each of the policeman's arms.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/245/cuffedholdtb1.png

Edit: Also note that both policemen have a hand free in this situation.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

What I want to know is how much money this freeking idiot is costing all of us. He NEEDED his student ID. He's a MORON.

What the hell was he thinking? Or was he intentionally trying to cause trouble?

He has no defense. He is wrong., End of argument. If the campus police want harsher methods to deal with students as a result of this, blame this idiot.

He is stupid for forgetting his ID. Maybe he is a moron, maybe he is wrong about the abuse of power. But that isn't the point. As I said before being a moron doesn't suddenly enable the police to use harsher methods.

 

[Evo]

He is stupid for forgetting his ID. Maybe he is a moron, maybe he is wrong about the abuse of power. But that isn't the point. As I said before being a moron doesn't suddenly enable the police to use harsher methods.

They are there to uphold restrictions, restrictions everyone has agreed to, like providing a valid ID.

 

[Gokul43201]

Honestly, I can't tell what he's going on about.

What? Did you not understand the point I was making?

Since I've never commented on this, you're making this up.

No, I'm not. You've said many times^* that he wasn't zapped after being cuffed. Since he is clearly being zapped at 1:48, your claim implies that he wasn't cuffed at this point of time.

^*

I saw him handcuffed at the end, show me where he was zapped after being handcuffed. I watched the video.

NO TASER. Not once after he was handcuffed.

In reponse to "(He was) getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed", you said:

The video clearly shows that is not true.

Look again.

This is ridiculous but I just did...for probably the 27th time. There's nothing showing the guy kicking as he is being taken down the stairs. There only footage showing the guy is at the top of the stairs.

I have never said how many times the guy might have been shocked. Please quote the post numbers where I said so.

You've clearly said that he wasn't shocked after being cuffed (see quoted posts above). There are only two zappings before the 3:08 incident where you agree he is in cuffs. Therefore, by your own words, there are no more than two zappings in all.

This is getting quite ridiculous at this point. It seems to be impossible to have a logical discussion, and I've had about enough accusations for one night. I'm done with this thread.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the boy should be let off. That he wasn't doing anything wrong, and didn't deserve to be enforced.

The question isn't on whether punishing him was wrong, rather whether the method employed was wrong. He definitely broke the rules. He definitely had to be removed. And tasering him first off was fine, but the multiple tasings were perhaps a bit of bad judgement on the policemen's part.

 

[Evo]

There's nothing showing the guy kicking as he is being taken down the stairs. There only footage showing the guy is at the top of the stairs.

That's not true, you see him bordered on each side by people, then they grab his arms and he kicks back, his legs going up.

You've clearly said that he wasn't shocked after being cuffed (see quoted posts above). There are only two zappings before the 3:08 incident where you agree he is in cuffs. Therefore, by your own words, there are no more than two zappings in all.

I've never counted them, but if there were only two that can be counted, then I guess there are only two.

This is getting quite ridiculous at this point. It seems to be impossible to have a logical discussion, and I've had about enough accusations for one night. I'm done with this thread.

You're the one that seems to have a problem, not me. I can see the video, I can count the instances. I don't hate the people in charge, I look at all the details. In this instance, the kid was at fault. I don't know what the established protocol is, do you? Maybe they were within the guidelines, maybe they weren't. Are you an authority on this?

 

[Evo]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the boy should be let off. That he wasn't doing anything wrong, and didn't deserve to be enforced.

The question isn't on whether punishing him was wrong, rather whether the method employed was wrong. He definitely broke the rules. He definitely had to be removed. And tasering him first off was fine, but the multiple tasings were perhaps a bit of bad judgement on the policemen's part.

I think everyone questions the multiple tasings, even though they were extremely mild.

But, we don't know the reasons behind it. We don't know what options there were. We can't make uneducated guesses. Can we?

 

[Knavish]

Witness

http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showpost.php?p=374081&postcount=3

I find it credible.

 

[Evo]

yep, not surprising.

"Okay kids, I'm here!

Yes, I was indeed at Powell Library at approximately 11:30 on Tuesday night, and yes I did see the entire event as it went down.

Let me start off by saying that the guy DEFINITELY was asking to get his ass kicked. He was being extremely rude with the campus patrol guys (who are college students...this was before the real UCPD got called in). He was not complying with their requests to leave the premises, and he was definitely itching for a fight. I actually know the guy and a few of his friends, and I can tell you that he's the kind of guy that loves to make trouble.

Just as a little backstory, one of the quotes the guy has on his facebook (which he now has taken down) was "I like to find the most difficult solutions to the simplest of problems".

He definitely taunted the UCPD into behaving the way they did with him.

Edit: Many people have questioned the fact that the cops tazed him and asked him to get up, and tazed him again even though he shouldn't have the capability to get up. This was not the case here to my knowledge, because the cops were using their "drive-stun" method which administers less of a jolt than normal. I believe this because anyone who can ramble on about this being the patriot act and yell at the top of his lungs should have the capability of getting up."

http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showpost.php?p=374081&postcount=3

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Informative but not particularly credible. And nothing that hasn't been already said/suggested in this thread.

 

[0rthodontist]

Taunting should never change the procedures taken by the police. Unless the taunts are along the lines of "I have a weapon," police officers should disregard them, no matter how insulting, except possibly afterwards to book them for verbal assault. Taunts that do not indicate a physical threat just should not be relevant to the physical actions taken by police. Police officers should always keep a cool head.

 

[beckjorddotcom]

His being muslim is irrelevant.

This is a fake issue.

I notice in many such over use of force situations, that the subject
has cursed the cops and resisted. I once watched a white hippie hobo
get hancuffed and footcuffed and thrown in teh back seat of a cop car
all while cursing and swearing and using the f-word over and over, whcih made them want to give him more knocks.

Some people do not know when to shut up.

Jon-Erik Beckjord, Berkeley

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Who said he is a Muslim?

 

[0rthodontist]

I notice in many such over use of force situations, that the subject
has cursed the cops and resisted. I once watched a white hippie hobo
get hancuffed and footcuffed and thrown in teh back seat of a cop car
all while cursing and swearing and using the f-word over and over, whcih made them want to give him more knocks.

Do you believe that if they had given him more "knocks" in response to his verbal abuse, they would have been justified?

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

Do you believe that if they had given him more "knocks" in response to his verbal abuse, they would have been justified?

Exactly. They got the job done in X zaps. They could have done it in X+1 but X seems to be suffice. The question is there a way that X-1 could be suffice?

 

[0rthodontist]

Exactly. They got the job done in X zaps. They could have done it in X+1 but X seems to be suffice. The question is there a way that X-1 could be suffice?

No, that's not quite my point. I am talking about the situation which Beckjord introduced, with the hippie in the police car. I am saying that verbal abuse should not influence the use of force by police officers.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

No, that's not quite my point. I am talking about the situation which Beckjord introduced, with the hippie in the police car. I am saying that verbal abuse should not influence the use of force by police officers.

It might not quite be your point but it's very easy to pull that message from what you said.

Is it justified for the cops to do it in X+1 zaps? No, because it was shown to be suffice in X zaps. That raises the question, would it have been suffice to do it in X-1 zaps? Because if so, then X zaps were not justified. The extra zaps were pointless.Edit: Of course, you have to take into account the omniscience of hindsight. And add leeway for that.

 

[Gza]

LOL. Try the UCPD at UC Santa Barbara. I'd wish for tazings after some of the things they've done to me (then again i'd usually be less than cooperative, and extremely drunk, but that's besides the point, or not.) Case in point, this guy in the video obviously was acting like an idiot to illicit that sort of response from them. Please stop defending him, with "muslim" this and "racism" that. When you act like an idiot and compromise the safety of others, you're going to get tasered, or have some other device used on you to submit you. I also thought it was funny that he started referring to the patriot act, as if it had something to do with him getting tazered.

 

[0rthodontist]

"Muslim" this or "racism" that have played only a small role in this discussion--you're attacking a strawman. The point that seems blindingly obvious to me is that verbal abuse heaped on a police officer should never influence their decisions about the use of force. I'm hearing some arguments which seem to contradict this, things that sound suspiciously like "he was a jerk, he deserved it." He sure was a jerk, but that alone (verbal abuse) should never influence how much force is used in anyone's arrest.