What is the proper grammar for my example sentence?

[timmeister37]

Why is that a question?

Because my understanding of this is incomplete

 

[timmeister37]

Why is that a question?

I am just a guy with only a high school education in English grammar.

Edit: As far a FORMAL education in English grammar goes, i have only a high school education in English grammar.

I self-educated myself on proper pronoun case usage ten years ago, but i have forgotten a lot of that knowledge.

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Perhaps you are substantially higher in IQ than I am. Perhaps you can make connections so effortlessly while i cannot make the connections effortlessly, so that things that are intuitively obvious to you and just go without saying to you have to be explicitly spelled out to me.

 

[sysprog]

Because my understanding of this is incomplete

ok, a simple example -- she and I (we) went to the store -- the cashier gave her and me (us), our change after the purchase $\cdots$

 

[Mark44]

Yes and also, "Whom was the reception honoring?" is correct for that reason as opposed to "Who was the reception honoring?" The distinction might be too subtle to people who have not formally studied grammar and syntax in primary education.

Indeed. Back when I was in the 7th and 8th grades, the English classes were actually devoted to English grammar. We spent a lot of time diagramming sentences, which helped us understand the various parts of a sentence. In high school I took two years of Russian, and its complexity of cases for nouns, pronouns, and adjectives really reinforced my understanding of how pronouns worked in English.
As I understand things, Middle English still retained the various inflections in nouns and pronouns, but much of that fell by the wayside with the transition to English since then. Our modern pronouns are pretty much the only vestiges of inflections that remain, and as such, a large fraction of English speakers, including a good many English teachers at the K-12 level, don't really have a solid grip on them.

 

[kuruman]

I should also point out that the issue is further obfuscated by incessant misuse of the two pronouns. How many times have we heard (and will continue to hear) utterenaces such as "me and my friends went to a party" or "between you and I"?

 

[sysprog]

Indeed. Back when I was in the 7th and 8th grades, the English classes were actually devoted to English grammar. We spent a lot of time diagramming sentences, which helped us understand the various parts of a sentence. In high school I took two years of Russian, and its complexity of cases for nouns, pronouns, and adjectives really reinforced my understanding of how pronouns worked in English.
As I understand things, Middle English still retained the various inflections in nouns and pronouns, but much of that fell by the wayside with the transition to English since then. Our modern pronouns are pretty much the only vestiges of inflections that remain, and as such, a large fraction of English speakers, including a good many English teachers at the K-12 level, don't really have a solid grip on them.

<styleboy>Hey Sir it's firm grasp of them; not solid grip on them</styleboy> $\cdots$

 

[timmeister37]

ok, a simple example -- she and I (we) went to the store -- the cashier gave her and me (us), our change after the purchase $\cdots$

I know the difference between a direct object and an indirect object. I don't see exactly how this is relevant.

 

[sysprog]

I know the difference between a direct object and an indirect object. I don't see exactly how this is relevant.

In an earlier post you asked whether "The assignment was given to her and I" was correct and I replied that no it wasn't -- when she and I are the objects, we're correctly referred to as her and me . . .

 

[timmeister37]

In an earlier post you asked whether "The assignment was given to her and I" was correct and I replied that no it wasn't -- when she and I are the objects, we're correctly referred to as her and me . . .

In the sentence, "The assignment was given to her and me", is "her and me" the indirect object?

_________________

I don't really see the point of your mentioning indirect objects and direct objects in post #28. Both predicate pronouns that are indirect objects and predicate pronouns that are direct objects are supposed to be in the objective case.

 

[sysprog]

In the sentence, "The assignment was given to her and me", is "her and me" the indirect object?

You and she (referentially called her and me) are passive voice direct objects, because you're doing the recipiency of the assigning; however, as assignees, you're also arguably indirect objects, because you're not only direct recipients of the action; you're also recipients of results of the action -- typically indirect objects are things acted upon by direct objects.

 

[kuruman]

In the sentence, "The assignment was given to her and me", is "her and me" the indirect object?

Yes. This can be seen better in the active voice, "The teacher gave her and me the assignment". The teacher gave what? The assignment = direct object. The teacher gave the assignment to whom? Her and me = indirect objects.

 

[sysprog]

Yes. This can be seen better in the active voice, "The teacher gave her and me the assignment". The teacher gave what? The assignment = direct object. The teacher gave the assignment to whom? Her and me = indirect objects.

@kuruman brings insight and clarity . . .

 

[phinds]

In the sentence "He was walking down the street", i thought that "was" is a linking verb. So you disagree with my assertion that "was" is a linking verb in the sentence "He was walking down the street" ?

I don't think your concept of a "linking" verb is a good one. The following sentences are all grammatically identical except for case/tense. The "was", "is", etc belong intimitely with the walking and should not be looked at as something separate.

He walks down the street.
He is walking down the street.
He was walking down the street.
He walked down the street.
He will be walking down the street.
He would be walking down the street.

All those constructs are the same, extended with "with her" on the end.

He walks down the street with her.

 

[timmeister37]

You and she (referentially called her and me) are passive voice direct objects, because you're doing the recipiency of the assigning; however, as assignees, you're also arguably indirect objects, because you're not only direct recipients of the action; you're also recipients of results of the action -- typically indirect objects are things acted upon by direct objects.

How does determining whether a pronoun is an indirect object or a direct object help you determine whether the pronoun should be in the objective case or the subjective case? I thought both pronouns that are direct objects and pronouns that are indirect objects are both objective case.

 

[timmeister37]

I don't think your concept of a "linking" verb is a good one. The following sentences are all grammatically identical except for case/tense. The "was", "is", etc belong intimitely with the walking and should not be looked at as something separate.

He walks down the street.
He is walking down the street.
He was walking down the street.
He walked down the street.
He will be walking down the street.
He would be walking down the street.

All those constructs are the same, extended with "with her" on the end.

He walks down the street with her.

Phinds, your totally correct. I used a false definition of a linking verb when i created this thread.

I think that i confused a helping verb with a linking verb when i first created this thread.

 

[timmeister37]

You and she (referentially called her and me) are passive voice direct objects, because you're doing the recipiency of the assigning; however, as assignees, you're also arguably indirect objects, because you're not only direct recipients of the action; you're also recipients of results of the action -- typically indirect objects are things acted upon by direct objects.

I am totally confused.

 

[timmeister37]

Yes. This can be seen better in the active voice, "The teacher gave her and me the assignment". The teacher gave what? The assignment = direct object. The teacher gave the assignment to whom? Her and me = indirect objects.

How does determining whether a pronoun is a direct object or an indirect object help one figure out whether the pronoun should be in the objective case or the subjective case? I think both pronouns that are direct objects and pronouns that are indirect objects are both supposed to be in the objective case.

 

[timmeister37]

In the sentence "He was walking down the street", the word "was" is a helping verb, not a linking verb.

Mark44 used the term auxillary verb.
Helping verb= auxillary verb

A linking verb is NOT the same as a helping verb.

 

[timmeister37]

I don't think your concept of a "linking" verb is a good one. The following sentences are all grammatically identical except for case/tense. The "was", "is", etc belong intimitely with the walking and should not be looked at as something separate.

He walks down the street.
He is walking down the street.
He was walking down the street.
He walked down the street.
He will be walking down the street.
He would be walking down the street.

All those constructs are the same, extended with "with her" on the end.

He walks down the street with her.

Phinds, what do you think about the rule i wrote for determining proper pronoun case in post #27?

P.S. is the dog in your avatar photograph your dog?

 

[sysprog]

How does determining whether a pronoun is an indirect object or a direct object help you determine whether the pronoun should be in the objective case or the subjective case? I thought both pronouns that are direct objects and pronouns that are indirect objects are both objective case.

I'm not the one who brought in the direct-indirect object idea -- I just wanted the subject-object distinction -- I think that some people are sometimes overly conscientious against using 'me' in the subjective (incorrectly, as in me and her are going to the store) so that they are apt to over-correctively and consequently incorrectly (as in 'she's going to the store with her and I') use 'I' instead of 'me' when they are referring to themselves in the objective.

 

[timmeister37]

I'm not the one who brought in the direct-indirect object idea

Yes you did. The first mentioning of direct objects and indirect objects on this thread was made by you on post #28.

I just wanted the subject-object distinction -- I think that some people are sometimes overly conscientious against using 'me' in the subjective (incorrectly, as in me and her are going to the store) so that they are apt to over-correctively and consequently incorrectly (as in 'she's going to the store with her and I') use 'I' instead of 'me' when they are referring to themselves in the objective.

 

[sysprog]

I am just a guy with only a high school education in English grammar.

Edit: As far a FORMAL education in English grammar goes, i have only a high school education in English grammar.

I self-educated myself on proper pronoun case usage ten years ago, but i have forgotten a lot of that knowledge.

‐-----------

Perhaps you are substantially higher in IQ than I am. Perhaps you can make connections so effortlessly while i cannot make the connections effortlessly, so that things that are intuitively obvious to you and just go without saying to you have to be explicitly spelled out to me.

Apparently you sometimes feel like I do when I'm playing coffeehouse chess with someone who just sees things that I don't -- it's ok, we'll probably see it later . . .

 

[sysprog]

Yes you did. The first mentioning of direct objects and indirect objects on this thread was made by you on post #28.

ok, that's true, I brought the wikipedia ref that used those terms -- I was trying to emphasize the subject-object distinction . . .

 

[timmeister37]

Apparently you sometimes feel like I do when I'm playing coffeehouse chess with someone who just sees things that I don't -- it's ok, we'll probably see it later . . .

Sysprog, do you agree with the rule i wrote in post #27?

 

[Mark44]

<styleboy>Hey Sir it's firm grasp of them; not solid grip on them</styleboy> ⋯⋯\cdots

One can have a firm grasp or a firm grip on something. Maybe "firm" is the better choice than "solid," but I think you "gripped" my meaning.

 

[Mark44]

Sysprog, do you agree with the rule i wrote in post #27?

Can you restate that rule? We're now at post #61, so this was 34 posts back.

 

[sysprog]

Can you restate that rule? We're now at post #61, so this was 34 posts back.

The right rule is to distinguish correctly between subject and object when deciding whether to say 'she' or 'her', or 'I' or 'me' (not that you didn't already know that, Sir).

 

[Mark44]

How does determining whether a pronoun is a direct object or an indirect object help one figure out whether the pronoun should be in the objective case or the subjective case?

I don't see how it's relevant at all. Here are two examples using her:
1. Fred gave her a bouquet. -- Direct object "bouquet," indirect object "her."
2. For the position of director, I nominate her. -- Direct object, "her."

What's important is to distinguish between whether the pronoun is a subject or an object (either direct object or indirect). It's the difference between "Who is calling?" and "To whom did you wish to speak?"
In the first, "who" is the subject; in the second "you" is the subject and "whom" is the indirect object.

 

[Mark44]

The right rule is to distinguish correctly between subject and object when deciding whether to say 'she' or 'her', or 'I' or 'me'.

I was asking @timmeister37 to state his rule -- I didn't want to have to trawl back through a bunch of posts.

 

[sysprog]

The transitivity of 'gave' renders problematic the determination of which object is direct and which indirect, but it's not problematic for determination of subject vis-a-vis object . . .

 

[timmeister37]

Can you restate that rule? We're now at post #61, so this was 34 posts back.

The posts are all numbered. It is a long rule. It is on the second page.

Mark44, you already agreed with the rule upthread. I am curious as to sysprog's opinion.

 

[timmeister37]

I was asking @timmeister37 to state his rule -- I didn't want to have to trawl back through a bunch of posts.

I changed my mind.
I will restate it, Mark44. It will take several minutes though

 

[kuruman]

At this point of the discussion I feel I should caution against confusing the object with a predicate nominative.
From the Daily Grammar, "A predicate nominative or predicate noun completes a linking verb and renames the subject. It is a complement or completer because it completes the verb (predicate)."
Example: (Pointing at a person in a photo) "In this photo my mother is she, do you remember her?" "She" for predicate nominative, "her" for direct object.

 

[timmeister37]

The following is my rule in post #27:

As i recall, the rule for which pronoun case to use has to do with the verb form in the sentence. As i recall, if the sentence uses a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the subjective case (she). If the sentence does not use a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the objective case (her). The only linking verb that matters for this rule is the linking verb that separates the subject from the predicate in the sentence, not any other linking verb in this sentence.

 

[sysprog]

The following is my rule in post #27:

As i recall, the rule for which pronoun case to use has to do with the verb form in the sentence. As i recall, if the sentence uses a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the subjective case (she). If the sentence does not use a linking verb to link the predicate pronoun back to the subject of the sentence, then the predicate pronoun should be the objective case (her). The only linking verb that matters for this rule is the linking verb that separates the subject from the predicate in the sentence, not any other linking verb in this sentence.

I would like to see sentential examples.