Wisconsin labor protests it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days

[Gokul43201]

Meh so how long will they be willing to protest for?

My guess: they could keep going through till the end of next week. Why? The weather. Wisconsin is seeing a stretch of ridiculously warm temps. You can bet we wouldn't have seen 20K strong protests (not to mention celebrity protesters like JJ) if we'd been having typical 10 degree days instead of this recent spell of nearly Egypt-like temperatures.

 

[russ_watters]

You would not believe, but not all teachers partied though communications degree , many have science degrees (physics, mathematics, etc). FrancisZ has degree in physics.

That's true, but is it really the norm? Not that I know a huge number of teachers, but of the half dozen or so I know, few have science degrees - though one is a math teacher, with a math degree. Most have liberal arts degrees and will readily admit to having partied their way through them.

Regarding your data, I guess it includes schools with unions, i.e public schools. My quote in previous post was for catolic schools without unions. So if unions for public schools will be baned then I guess salaries for teachers will drop to the range of 20,000-30,000 without summer paid and without benefits as it is now in schools without unions.

That doesn't follow: supply and demand would intervene and the resulting salary would end up somewhere in between.

But I guess, it does not bother you, since it seems you think that engeneers superior to teachers.

They are and the pay is better because of it. Several of my teacher friends have also readily admitted they couldn't possibly do engineering.

 

[russ_watters]

Russ: You struggled through an engineering degree, instead of partying... Well, it's good to know that the world is binary.

I don't. We're all talking in generalities here.

I'd add... $258 million USD over 10 years... and? How does the existence of beaureapathologies in government (shocker) in any way support the argument to dissolve unions and double pension contributions?

I don't follow - isn't it obvious? Does the existence of such things not bother you because it is unsurprising?

As for job security... it would seem that comes as a result of... collective bargaining.

That would be true if only teachers who had unions had tenure. Do they?

That is unless what you're seeing now counts as job security, in which case I envy your sense of fun and a lack of care for the future.

I don't follow - are you claiming that teachers don't have near absolute job security?

 

[russ_watters]

The pension is paid from money the employee contributed to the pension fund, money the employer paid in and any interest the money earned while in the fund. So this is money already owed. It will be paid to the employee whether he retires now or ten years from now. So the taxpayer is not out any extra money.

C'mon, Janus, that's ridiculous. If the pension pays out more money because the teachers retire early, more money has to be paid-in to cover it - and the vast majority of the original contributions you listed comes from the employer (taxes). There'd be much less of an issue if 2/3 of the contributions came from the employee, such as in a 401k.

You have to acknowledge the reality here: The teachers would not be doing it if it meant getting less money.

The monthly pension generally is figured from how much money the employee has in his fund and how long he is expected to live. The earlier he retires, the smaller his monthly pension. It is gauged so that the money should last out the rest of his natural life. The only way it costs the taxpayer more than the money already in his fund is if he lives longer than average life expectancy.

In the example already given, the pension was a flat 80% regardless of when the person retires. So earlier retirement means more money paid out.

Again, At least in the case in my state's public pension, this doesn't cost the taxpayer anything more than he would have paid otherwise.

Then why on Earth would any teacher ever take advantage of it? Where's the benefit?

No, since they paid in more, their pension account would be larger, and since by their calculated life expectancy, they would live fewer years after retiring, Their monthly pension would increase accordingly.
In fact, since the employer would have to contribute to the pension fund while the employee continued to work without retiring, it would cost the taxpayer more for him to work till 65 and then retire than for him to retire at 55, and work post retirement at the same salary, assuming he lives out his expected lifespan.

Again, if that's true, why would any teacher ever take advantage of this?

It would be reasonable if there was a pro and a con for the teacher and all pro for the taxpayers, but I don't see anything to suggest that is the case: it looks like all pro for the teachers and all con for the taxpayers.

 

[russ_watters]

I AGREE that once a person officially retires from a public service position, that they should NOT be allowed to return to work in that position, and collect a second check from the same source. That's flagrantly abusing the system (and is unethical), even if it is legal there.

However, if a person wishes to retire from public education, and then takes a position from the private sector (maybe say, teaching in Catholic school for $25K); I don't believe that is corrupt. That seems like a good financial plan, actually; even if it is a crummy twilight--to work and save until you aren't physically able anymore.

Agreed and it's actually not necessarily so crummy: it is often a lifestyle choice that enables a person to work fewer hours while getting paid and still doing something they love, which increases their standard of living. A retired music teacher I know works part time at a music store and part time as a college professor. People do this sort of thing all the time because a lot of people get bored when they retire, so they turn their previous job/passion into a hobby that still pays them.

Some people are lazy. It really doesn't matter what industry we're talking about.

Yes it does if they work in an industry that grants them tenure after 5 years! There is a huge difference in job security afforded to teachers vs other industries.

Part of the logic (at least in my head) for getting paid overtime in a white-collar job is to compensate for the lower job security. I work in construction engineering and we're at the whim of the economy in a way that teachers aren't. My company laid-off 15% of its employees and cut the engineers' hours to 36 and admin staff to 32 for a little over a year. And from what I understand, we did much, much better than average. Now I'm working a lot of overtime and am going to make 20-30% more than during the year of the downturn. But I happily accepted the pay cut in return for a much lower chance of getting laid-off. Teachers should not be immune to such economic realities (any union, for that matter: the stuff others get away with is sickening).

I have honestly worked long hours...

And I respect that, I just don't perceive it to be the norm.

The sane thing to do is to stretch it out though, so you can survive (in case you can't find a job). But usually, if you do find work over the summer though, it'll be at Home Depot or something outside of teaching, that doesn't pay but minimum wage; or at least close to it.

Yes, a pair that I know have worked for years at a golf course in the summer at the snack bar and bar. It pays reasonably well if you're a female with nice legs, but it's not a "real" job - of course, a second job usually isn't.

It's hard to say that, I would think, unless you've actually done it yourself.

I will freely acknowledge I can only speak about people I know and the people I know are for the most part in the richest county in Pennsylvania. Yes, I understand that the "deal" varies considerably from place to place.

And even when you are not worrying about life and death, you're worried about getting so frustrated at the common indifference, the unfairness, and the cruelty you experience so regularly, that you'll break down and yell at some kid (or worse) and get fired.

I consider it a form of social work though; and that is honestly why I've always done it.

Well those are the reasons I would never do it and in my perception why it is more often women who do it: women are more interested in social work.

Actually, it's a pretty thankless job, most of the time. And I've kept doing it, only because I've had this delusion that somehow I was actually helping people climb out of their own socio-economic tradition.

I've heard plenty of stories that agree that it can be a punishing job self esteem-wise. Another good reason I'd never do it...though the same can be said about sales.

With the way things are going with Union busting of late (in New York and New Jersey in particular), I really don't feel optimistic about the future. I really DON'T BELIEVE there will be either a pension, or social security for me, by the time I am 65.

You may be right. At least for me, most of my retirement savings I personally own (401k, IRA), so my goal is to have enough so that if SS fails I'll still be able to live. So for that I can sympathize: the state controls your pension, right? So you're at the mercy of a government for all of your retirement.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Madison police spokesman Joel DeSpain expressed confidence that the demonstrations would come off peacefully. He said police are planning for crowds of 30,000 to 50,000.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116517683.html

 

[Gokul43201]

Clever message from a teacher:

 

[Gokul43201]

Something else that hasn't been brought up is that the police, fireman and lawmaker's are exempt from this bill.

Well... sure... the first is an industry, the second are generally considered heros, and third are making the bill.

There's an additional potential distinction. The police and firefighters' unions (specifically in Milwaukee) were the (only two) unions that supported Walker's campaign.

Walker's (somewhat legitimate, IMO) argument is that the police and fire departments provide an emergency service, so it would be dangerous to have them go on strike. Not sure how well that applies to lawmakers though.

 

[WhoWee]

Then he should approach it reasonably- renegotiate the contract. Hamstringing the collective bargaining rights is ridiculous.

Apparently, it typically requires more than 12 months to complete this type of negotiation - time has run out - shouldn't that have happened two years ago? I heard a fellow talking on TV this AM about an "emergency assistance" plan being considered in Washington - another $Trillion bailout? LOL The problem is the average wages are $50 - 55,000 and the benefits (unseen) are an additional $25,000 - for 9 months of work. Is that realistic and sustainable - more importantly - is education producing positive results under this protected system? I say fire some underperforming teachers and hire someone who will do a better job - like FrancisZ.

 

[AlephZero]

C'mon, Janus, that's ridiculous. If the pension pays out more money because the teachers retire early, more money has to be paid-in to cover it.

And the scale of the difference is so big that I guess nobody wants to talk about it.

Laurence Kotlikoff, a US-based economist, reckons that the US has promised to pay out over $200,000 billion more in the long run than it seems inclined to collect in taxes - this is roughly 15 times bigger than both the official US national debt and the US economy. ... if Kotlkoff's estimate looks huge, if should: to close it would require halving spending on everything else in the US government budget from this point forward, or doubling every tax.

Source: Financial Times weekend magazine section, Feb 19/20 2011.

This is not just a US problem. The UK public sector pension liabilities amount to about £750 to £1000 billion of unofficial government debt, and the state pension liability (a universal benefit) is well over £1000 billion.

I don't have any numbers to compare Wisconsin with the US national average position, but it would be remarkable if it was 15 times better than average.

 

[Janus]

Apparently, they've known for almost a year that pensions needed to be addressed. I don't think the 5.5% the Governor wants them to contribute is unreasonable - as you said - it's their money.

It depends on the back history. For example, in my state, back in the early 80's, state employees paid 6% into their pension. Then one year, the state decided that it would cost them less to offer to pay for the employees 6% contribution than it would give to them cost of living adjustments over the length of the contract. They presented this idea during contract negotiations, and the state employees accepted.

At the same time many, but not all school districts did the same thing, even though they were under the same pension system. In other words, some districts went for COLAs , and some went for the 6% pickup.

Fast forward a little more than a decade. Some people start to claim that it isn't fair that state employees do not contribute to their own pensions and get an initiative on the ballot that required all members of the public pension system to pay the 6% out of their pocket.

During the campaign, the facts of how this 6% pick-up came into being was brought to light, and the voters rejected it, deeming it not right to take something away from public employees that the employees had already given up COLAs for.

So, without knowing how the present pension system in Wisconsin evolved, I can't say whether it is fair or not to ask the employees to pay 5.5% towards it.

 

[nismaratwork]

I don't. We're all talking in generalities here. I don't follow - isn't it obvious? Does the existence of such things not bother you because it is unsurprising? That would be true if only teachers who had unions had tenure. Do they? I don't follow - are you claiming that teachers don't have near absolute job security?

In general it's probably helpful to steer a discussion of concrete matters that are ongoing away from generalties. I would tend to hope that we'd all want to raise the tone of the discussion, not simply match or lower it. I'd add, my response was of course meant to highlight that very issue. So, given that generalty is out there, what do you really think about teachers?

As to the, "existence of such things" bothering me... no. The pathologies here have a minimal impact compared to those in saaaay... MMS (Minerals Management Service), DoD, Medicare/aid, etc. This strikes me as a very minimal thing to adress in service of a very particular ideology.

I don't know, do they have tenure? I'm not clear on how this works... you make sweeping generalizations bound to insult any teacher here (and no, I'm not a teacher), but I should go mining for information? If you want to toss hypotheticals about job security back and forth, a time when teachers are being confronted with "layoffs", or what's happening in WI is probably a poor time to use that tactic.

Nothing you've said indicates less than a biased view, and a desire to manage how others percieve an ideological move to bust unions. You'll note I haven't disagreed or weighed in regarding the pension issue... or maybe not.

 

[nismaratwork]

There's an additional potential distinction. The police and firefighters' unions (specifically in Milwaukee) were the (only two) unions that supported Walker's campaign.

Walker's (somewhat legitimate, IMO) argument is that the police and fire departments provide an emergency service, so it would be dangerous to have them go on strike. Not sure how well that applies to lawmakers though.

Now that... I didn't know, but as you say it makes no sense to apply to lawmakers. Even then, Christie slashed the police in CAMDEN, so I think that the concern over lawlessness in WI may be more of boogeyman.

The bottom line is that, and I think we'd both agree here, we're skimming the surface of an issue where there are no "good guys", and a lot of complexity. To me, IMO, it appears that this is a political move that any party would make given the chance, although the target would be different.

I'd love to see a comparison between the much derided "community activism", at the level of improving schooling, compared to shoving police into an area to deal with the fallout from a useless education and weak job prospects.

 

[Janus]

C'mon, Janus, that's ridiculous. If the pension pays out more money because the teachers retire early, more money has to be paid-in to cover it - and the vast majority of the original contributions you listed comes from the employer (taxes). There'd be much less of an issue if 2/3 of the contributions came from the employee, such as in a 401k.

You have to acknowledge the reality here: The teachers would not be doing it if it meant getting less money.

Again, under my state's pension plan, The teacher is just deciding to take his pension in smaller amounts over a longer time, rather than wait to get larger payments over a shorter time. As to why teacher's would do this rather than wait to get the larger payments, there are a lot of reason, even if, in the long run, they get less money. Some might just decide that it better to have extra money now, rather than later. Others just might need that money now. Not every teacher does it either.

In the example already given, the pension was a flat 80% regardless of when the person retires. So earlier retirement means more money paid out.

I am going to assume that this 80% is a cap, and not that you get 80% no matter how long you've work. In other words, I doubt that a employee who worked for only 10 yrs before reaching retirement age would get the same 80% as someone who worked for 30 yrs.

In this case, there is no reason for the teacher not to retire when he is eligible for that 80%, at 30 yrs, since waiting to retire add any value to his pension. So, in this case, your main objection seems to be the fact that a teacher who stated working at age 25, could retire at age 55 at 80% of their wages, rather than be made to wait until, say, 65 before getting a pension. So it is less a matter of his working after retiring as it is that he can retire at an early enough age to do so.

Then why on Earth would any teacher ever take advantage of it? Where's the benefit? Again, if that's true, why would any teacher ever take advantage of this?

As I said above, For a teacher in my state its a matter of when they want or need their money. For many it comes down to a cost/benefit analysis: Do I retire now, collect a smaller pension, and continue to work, during which time I make more money, but meaning that I get less money after I do quit working, or do I wait a few more years to retire so I'll have more money after I quit working?
And I'm not saying that there isn't any advantage for the teacher. He is getting a paycheck and pension while he continues to work. But the state is not out any more money than if he simply decided to retire, as to replace him with someone of equal value, they still would have to give that paycheck to someone else. If the district decides not to refill the position, I don't seeing them rehiring the retiree. Remember, this is a two way street. The district wouldn't do it if there was not some advantage for them. (Usually is in the form of not paying pension contributions and a fringe package)

It would be reasonable if there was a pro and a con for the teacher and all pro for the taxpayers, but I don't see anything to suggest that is the case: it looks like all pro for the teachers and all con for the taxpayers.

Obviously it varies from state to state, but I covered the pros and cons for the teacher in my state.

As to the pro for the taxpayer, it is retaining an experienced teacher at less cost, keeping in mind that the pension is paid out whether the teacher is hired back or not.

 

[vici10]

That's true, but is it really the norm? Not that I know a huge number of teachers, but of the half dozen or so I know, few have science degrees - though one is a math teacher, with a math degree. Most have liberal arts degrees and will readily admit to having partied their way through them.

It is better to look into statistics and see. According to national center for education statistics http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_070.asp
only 2% teachers have less than bachelor degree, 44.5% have bachelor degrees, 46% have master degrees and 1.5% have professional or Ph.D.
10.3% have degree in Mathematics, 12.7% have degrees in Natural sciences and 19.6% have degrees in Social Sciences. 0.9% of those teachers in Mathematics and 3% in Natural Sciences have Ph.D's.

So more than half have higher than bachelor degrees and 23% studied hard sciences.

Compare it to statistics for those who work in Science and Engineering Occupations as defined by Bureau of Labor Statistics.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf04333/

More than four million individuals with at least a high school education were employed in science and engineering (S&E) occupations in the United States as of April 2003. Within this group, a substantial proportion, 22 percent, reported either a high school diploma (5 percent) or an associate's degree (17 percent) as their highest level of educational attainment (table 1). Among the remaining proportion, 48 percent held a bachelor's degree, about 22 percent held a master's degree, 7 percent held a doctorate, and about 2 percent held a professional degree...

Significant numbers of individuals employed in computer and math science occupations and engineering occupations have high school diplomas or associate's degrees but no higher college degrees (table 2). Approximately 40 percent of all individuals employed in computer and math science occupations and 20 percent of all individuals employed in engineering occupations have no higher than an associate's degree.

In light of this statistics, I do not see teachers as unskilled and lazy in comparison to engineers.

That doesn't follow: supply and demand would intervene and the resulting salary would end up somewhere in between.

This is an article of faith on your part. I cannot argue with faith. The fact is that non-union workers especially in catholic schools make $20,000-30,000

They are and the pay is better because of it. Several of my teacher friends have also readily admitted they couldn't possibly do engineering.

And you admitted you cannot do teaching. I suppose it is comforting to think about yourself as superior and hence deserving better treatment. Although regarding engineers and teachers your feelings are not based on facts (see statistics above).
Besides, I do not believe that teachers provide less socially important work than engeneers.

 

[cobalt124]

I'm intrigued about the role of unions in the U.S., I think my confusion comes from there being different situations in different states.

Personally I don't have a problem with the benefit/wage cuts

Neither would I, as long as they were fair, and seen to be fair, and negotiated in an open and transparent manner.

But Freedom of Association works both ways: employees are free to associate with employers and each other or not as they see fit, and so are employers.

As long as it is fair on both sides. I suspect their are examples of unfairness on both sides in the U.S.

In this case, like many others, union leaders are using the phrase "collective bargaining" to refer to current union benefits above and beyond what the words "collective bargaining" actually mean, such as a restriction on the ability of the state to hire replacements, etc.

There is no right to job security? The state could rehire for any reason they desired?

Wiki says "Collective agreements usually set out wage scales, working hours, training, health and safety, overtime, grievance mechanisms and rights to participate in workplace or company affairs."

That sounds like a reasonable definition. Any issue that has a direct affect on the employee.

Yes, exactly. Far more than the phrase "collective bargaining" generically means. And failure of an employer to agree to employee demands does not constitute violating their right to collectively negotiate for them. Neither would a refusal of an employer to negotiate at all. I have the right to negotiate for a lower price at a car lot, and refuse to buy (as leverage), but that right imposes no obligation on the car lot whatsoever.

I don't see how the right to car ownership is as important as the right to work, its an inadequate comparison IMO. I'm assuming here that every state enshines the right to work either as state law, or by union representation. I may be wrong.

I still can't understand why any Government workers need protection from their employer?

I don't understand why they wouldn't, unless there is something in state law that protects them. You can argue whether the protestors here are justified in their claims, but as a separate issue, are they protected?

In our state, some government officials, both R & D, have 'retired' then continue in office. That way, they can collect a pension as well as salary, well before they reach retirement age. We have double dippers, triple dippers, and more.

I am currently going through the process of reapplying for my job (local government U.K.), so people who are under threat of losing their job can either take early retirement (pension) or voluntary redundancy (lump sum payoff). The employer can accept or refuse either solely based on it's own requirements. So if the emmployer requires people to go, they should stump up, and then whether or not the employee gets another job/consultancy is a non-issue. If the U.S. situation has made this some sort of "right" for the employee, then that is clearly wrong, and the "x-dipping" needs to be stopped. And drawing a pension while working should be stopped.

One our Congressman is a retired colonel from the military. He made a point to suspend his military retirement because he's drawing a salary from Congress. That is appropriate and commendable. Apparently he's an exception. Many others, state and federal, collect one or more pensions before retirement age, while drawing a salary from a different government job.

Which is the example that should be taken, I suppose some would argue that a colonel and congressman would be in more of a position to do that, and I also suppose some are in that position and "dipping their hands in the till"

Under the new bill pension contribution would increase from .2% to 5.8%. That is still a sweet deal!

And it may be necessary. Times are hard.

pensions that are set up so that it makes the most sense to retire and immediately got back to work should be reworked

Agreed. That is not what pensions are for.

I am in the union- I can opt out and save $10...I don't really understand how I benefit from the AAUP...and I don't have confidence that the administration can determine what is best for me... the AAUP (and our local union reps) often takes a very adversarial posture when a more thoughtful discussion is needed...To be sure, employee unions can be very important...I've worked years without union protection and would have a hard time claiming the working environment was substantively worse than now.

Taking the points in order:
$10 per year!. My union membership is £20 per MONTH. And 50% of the workforce consider that worth paying because the employer takes every opportunity it can to screw its employees.
Many union benefits are invisible as their very presence prevents a lot of what employers would like to do, so effects are not seen, and unions taken for granted.
I wouldn't trust my employer as far as I could throw it to be responsible on employee rights.
My union and the employer have been conciliatory and reasonable in the past few years negotiations. However they are now polarising due to the current circumstances.
There will be examples of working environments that are far worse for not having union representation.

unscrupulous people can write laws that benefit them personally

Allowing this to happen contributes to the problem, whichever country.

If Americans think that their children should be educated by people who paid this amount of money then yes, go ahead and forbid them to unionize.

Yes I'm old. It used to be that teaching was a respected profession. What we sow we reap.

an attempt to destroy the powerbase of the opposition in the name of saving money.

Confrontation is not the best path. Neither is making the opposition an enemy. They should negotiate.

If Democrats put a provision to disallow corporations from participating in the political process, even indirectly, under the rubric of 'saving money'... I can't imagine a better outcome.

And, if I understand correctly what you are saying, there would be less need for union representation for employees.

The state entered into an collective bargaining agreement, and rather than honor the terms of the contract, it wants to ban the union from collective bargaining and ignore the contract.

An unprincipled approach that gives justification to union representation.

Shouldn't retired people - retire?

Yes. Anything else in an abuse of a retirement scheme. Don't you have the notion of "voluntary/compulsory redundancy" payments in the U.S.?

As for job security... it would seem that comes as a result of... collective bargaining.

That is my understanding too. I dread to think what working conditions would be like otherwise.

There you have it- teaching is a low prestige occupation, that isn't particularly well compensated. And its hard- hard enough that the attrition rate is insane. Something like 50% quit within 5 years. Most don't seem to want the job, but somehow feel that the average teacher is a greedy lack-wit suckling at the government's teat.

It would seem this is how the teaching profession is treated. To what extent does this profession affect a countrys future prosperity? I think they deserve fair treatment.

The fact is, the unions were granted contracts from the state. Its possible the state cannot honor its end due to the recession- so the answer is to renegotiate.

And they should be honest and renegotiate.

I have heard some say they are trying to make Wisconsin a Right-to-Work state with this, but then folks are saying they are trying to end the ability of the union to do collective bargaiing...? Wouldn't the two be different? Because unions can exist in Right-to-Work states, its just an employee is not mandated to have to join the union (I think).

I would hope that each state would at least have one of them.

I AGREE that once a person officially retires from a public service position, that they should NOT be allowed to return to work in that position, and collect a second check from the same source. That's flagrantly abusing the system (and is unethical), even if it is legal there.

It shouldn't be legal to do so.

However, if a person wishes to retire from public education, and then takes a position from the private sector (maybe say, teaching in Catholic school for $25K); I don't believe that is corrupt.

Because there is no effect on taxpayers money? It seems the same to me, it still seems unethical.

Realistically: industry and big business probably got the governor elected; and so he's going to have to "make good" on whatever financial promises he made to them

I could understand the need for union representation to stand against this.

I have honestly worked long hours regularly though (and almost always weekends); usually (while at work) between 10-12 hours a day during the work week (4-5 additional at home on Saturday or Sunday). And I have--exactly once in my career, as a teacher--gotten paid through the summer time.

I'm assuming they are unpaid extra hours. That wouldn't surprise me.

That doesn't follow: supply and demand would intervene and the resulting salary would end up somewhere in between.

If supply and demand were left to decide it, yes. I think political/corporate interference would obstruct it. Even if they didn't I don't think supply and demand should be left alone to influence the quality of education of a countrys future generations.

are you claiming that teachers don't have near absolute job security?

That is my understanding from reading this thread.

 

[ParticleGrl]

I heard a fellow talking on TV this AM about an "emergency assistance" plan being considered in Washington - another $Trillion bailout? LOL

Do you have a reference?

The problem is the average wages are $50 - 55,000 and the benefits (unseen) are an additional $25,000 - for 9 months of work.

Where are your numbers for average wages of teachers in Wisconsin? I can't seem to find reliable numbers, I get an average in the range of 47-53 depending on what source I look at. How many years experience does the average teacher in Wisconsin have?

Also, how are you valuing the benefits?

Finally, given your numbers, can you mount an argument that experienced educators shouldn't make $70,000+. Consider this paper- http://papers.nber.org/papers/w16606 which suggests that the a good kindergarden teacher with a class of 20 creates marginal gains in excess of $400,000.

As I said above, I think a lot of the anti-union sentiment comes from people who fervently believe that most teachers are lazy halfwits, and no data will convince them otherwise. Every field has its incompetents, but the majority of teachers I've met are dedicated, hard working people, who could be easily making more money doing other things.

 

[nismaratwork]

@Cobalt123: We'd seem to largely agree on this issue, so... very good and detailed post.

 

[FrancisZ]

Agreed and it's actually not necessarily so crummy: it is often a lifestyle choice that enables a person to work fewer hours while getting paid and still doing something they love, which increases their standard of living. A retired music teacher I know works part time at a music store and part time as a college professor. People do this sort of thing all the time because a lot of people get bored when they retire, so they turn their previous job/passion into a hobby that still pays them.

But then there are also those that have no choice but to work into old age. In NYC, if what Bloomberg is proposing, reaches fruition, then they'll force teachers, police, firefighters, and sanitation workers to retire at 55; and then proceed to wait until 65 (if they live that long) to begin to collect their pensions. Your spouse can never collect it, even as is. And in the ten year gap in between, workers shall then have to seek work in the private sector.

But there aren't any private sector garbage men in NYC; so they'd have to move. And if they don't have an income, that could also be tricky.

Yes it does if they work in an industry that grants them tenure after 5 years! There is a huge difference in job security afforded to teachers vs other industries.

The reason that teachers are offered tenure, is for an incentive to actually stay (job security--albeit in the $30k-70k range for most of their career, in inner cities). That is to say: you can risk it, and hope for better salary in the private sector working for a publisher of textbooks maybe; but you can also settle for a mid-middle class lifestyle for 20 years or so.

But the truth is that: many would not want to stay in an environment that risks there life every day. The same goes for cops. The difference being that the police have authority to arrest people (and have weapons of their own--which they get in trouble for using, if they are NYPD).

Ultimately, teacher pension programs and benefits are not all created equal. If you work in the suburbs where property taxes are higher, then you might be making a generous salary of 80k or higher.

I'm all for standardization myself. Personally, if I were in a position of authority: I would not allow the disparity in school budgets to continue.

The way things are: if you live in Camden, NJ where property taxes are lower; as a result, your local schools have a much weaker resource budget than if (say for example) you lived in Old Bridge, NJ (which is a suburb). In effect, that means that NOT all schools are created equal, either. And being that we, as a society, are dependent upon our schools to form an equally upright, and informed citizenry; then we are plainly failing in that endeavor as well.

So at least within the confines of the State (and personally, I'm more of a Federalist where education is concerned), then I think they ought to create a mass pool of all property taxes, which could then be distributed to all of the schools, proportionately to student enrollment number per school.

Frankly, I'm tired of this damn confederacy. There's no such thing as "American" education; the States have too many rights (and the policies of which are frequently incongruent). We can't compete with other nations abroad, because we have 50 nations of our own here to contend with.

I say: we need an actual Federal Standard of Education--based at least partly upon whatever they're doing right in South Korea, or elsewhere.

Respect to Massachusetts for their Math scores.

Part of the logic (at least in my head) for getting paid overtime in a white-collar job is to compensate for the lower job security.

Tell me about it--my father has worked in project management for the City of New York (in one form or another) for almost 40 years. And I expect that he shall have to work until the day he drops dead also. No job security; it's totally dependent upon the economy. Which is also why I have had to support my mother frequently myself (they're separated); and that I can barely afford to live.

He can make as much as $120k a year with over time doing site safety through private firms. You wouldn't know it though, the way he pisses money away. He has no pension coming to him, and he parties all of the time. In this past year alone, he went to Moscow, Costa Rica, and the Poconos (all for vacation). I went to Lake George, NY last summer for the first time since 1995.

I don't think my father is lazy though; so much as he is irresponsible (where family is concerned; but that's another story). In his work, he was always straight as an arrow, in fact; which is also why he'd find himself unemployed a lot, while we were growing up. The construction industry in New York City is notoriously crooked. Projects ALWAYS go over budget in NY. If materials aren't getting stolen by local thugs, then they're getting stolen by the mafia, and/or unscrupulous project managers.

And frequently salaries get padded through the duration of the project also (from the top, down).

It's a joke--they'll put something in wrong ON PURPOSE! Or they say: whut'r'ya'gunna'do--I got half your freaggin building up already? You really want me to walk off the project? I'll call the freaggin union!" Many of which are also mafia.

Bad seeds are far and wide.

I work in construction engineering and we're at the whim of the economy in a way that teachers aren't. My company laid-off 15% of its employees and cut the engineers' hours to 36 and admin staff to 32 for a little over a year. And from what I understand, we did much, much better than average. Now I'm working a lot of overtime and am going to make 20-30% more than during the year of the downturn. But I happily accepted the pay cut in return for a much lower chance of getting laid-off.

I would too--I would take a pay cut probably (within reason) to keep my job. But it's more difficult to say that, after you've already started contributing to a pension. You agreed to something a long time ago that potentially is going to be reneged upon.

There's one for contract lawyers.

Still, frankly, you guys ought to be unionized. I mean a reputable union. I'm saying that as a son whose father was out of work in project management every 4 to 5 years on average, growing up. It's very hard on the family.


I won't justify crime. But the reason something like the mafia--or any sort of scary union really--exists, is because the working poor are smart enough at least to know that they'll never have a far chance on there own. The system is rigged against you.

For capitalism to reach an apex--in its purist form--there can only be two classes.

Teachers should not be immune to such economic realities (any union, for that matter: the stuff others get away with is sickening).

The problem is, if you start firing teachers every time the economy takes a dive (and in Catholic schools, that is EXACTLY what they do), then ultimately you are going to adversely effect the outcome of your kid's education.

The total number of students isn't ever going to diminish in compulsory education. So what ends up happening, is that a school will then attempt to stuff 40 kids into one classroom. That means that the teachers who remain have to spread themselves over 10-20 more people. That's 10-20 more people who don't want to know jack about the Protestant Reformation.

Analogous to this: is Camden firing half of it's police force. Did crime suddenly plummet somehow in Camden, for the mayor to think that was a sensible idea? No--and the governor of NJ didn't take a pay cut for anyone either. As a matter of fact, he's said himself, that the executive branch is overdue for a pay raise.

Politicians are "public workers" whether they consider themselves, or not. Let them lead by example; and put their own money where their mouths are.

And I respect that, I just don't perceive it to be the norm.

When a union controls you to the point that you are literally forbidden from staying after school to help a struggling student with math: that is an abomination--because it defeats the very purpose of being a teacher. And if that sort of thing is going on anywhere, then I wholeheartedly agree that their union needs a reboot.

But I've had a lot of odd jobs since high school; and really I've seen laziness in just about every field I've interacted with (at least according to my own standards).

Yes, a pair that I know have worked for years at a golf course in the summer at the snack bar and bar. It pays reasonably well if you're a female with nice legs, but it's not a "real" job - of course, a second job usually isn't.

I'll have to remember to shave my legs. See if I can pull a Bugs Bunny on them.

I will freely acknowledge I can only speak about people I know and the people I know are for the most part in the richest county in Pennsylvania. Yes, I understand that the "deal" varies considerably from place to place. Well those are the reasons I would never do it and in my perception why it is more often women who do it: women are more interested in social work.

I read you. But I've also considered it a religious benefit to my life.

I've heard plenty of stories that agree that it can be a punishing job self esteem-wise. Another good reason I'd never do it...though the same can be said about sales. You may be right. At least for me, most of my retirement savings I personally own (401k, IRA), so my goal is to have enough so that if SS fails I'll still be able to live. So for that I can sympathize: the state controls your pension, right? So you're at the mercy of a government for all of your retirement.

I've been working already in education for 8 years, and I don't really have a pension per se. I have a 401(k) that's worth about 8 grand so far.


Public education pensions are controlled by District though; and ultimately the State.

 

[FrancisZ]

I'm intrigued about the role of unions in the U.S., I think my confusion comes from there being different situations in different states.

That is correct: there are a great many factors at play.

It shouldn't be legal to do so.

Agreed.

Because there is no effect on taxpayers money? It seems the same to me, it still seems unethical.

Precisely. Catholic schools generally do not receive funding from state or local governments, in the USA.

No one could begrudge you though, getting a job after retirement—you’ll probably have to anyway, because you’re pension is only a percentage of your last years salary (which in New York at least, is usual a pittance). Frankly, the pension sucks.

I could understand the need for union representation to stand against this.

It's why the majority of people join a union: they don't trust in the government.

I'm assuming they are unpaid extra hours. That wouldn't surprise me.

You never get “overtime”—it’s just a salary position.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Taking the points in order:
$10 per year!. My union membership is £20 per MONTH.

It is what it is- like I said, I could opt out if I so choose, but there's no clear benefit to doing so. Personally, I have no need for the union.

 

[mugaliens]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41664858/ns/us_news-life" ...

1. More citizens of Wisconsin than not elected their new governor and many Republican congressman to office, based on their platform promises for fiscal reform.

2. When fiscal reform begins, it's mostly those who did not elect them to office who are staging a revolt.

I'm sorry, but I have no symptathy for unionized folks who are making 30% to 100% more than non-unionized folks while their actions are resulting in the closures of entire schools. I fully support a Reagan/ATC measure which says, "Either be at your jobs on Monday morning, or your fired. Whatever time you've taken off thus far, or will take in the future will be counted to your leave/sick time. If you've taken off more than you were allowed, or in any other way do not do your job to the required level of performance, you will be subject to the consequences already on the books."

We still have WAY too many unemployed people here in the U.S.A. to put up with this sort of junk. I worked a job for more than 20 years where, if I'd have even conspired to pull this stuff, I wouldn't have just been without a job -- I'd have wound up in prison!

I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.

 

[Gokul43201]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41664858/ns/us_news-life" ...

1. More citizens of Wisconsin than not elected their new governor and many Republican congressman to office, based on their platform promises for fiscal reform.

2. When fiscal reform begins, it's mostly those who did not elect them to office who are staging a revolt.

Can I say "duh?" This situation is the norm. Any Governor or President is typically elected by a majority. Obama was elected by a majority, mostly Democrats, and it was primarily Republicans who protested his actions. Why do you find this strange or interesting?

I'm sorry, but I have no symptathy for unionized folks who are making 30% to 100% more than non-unionized folks while their actions are resulting in the closures of entire schools. I fully support a Reagan/ATC measure which says, "Either be at your jobs on Monday morning, or your fired.

Where was this rage when the Tea Party protests across the country involved missing work on Thursday April 15, or Friday Nov 5, or during the week-long rally in March in DC?

Whatever time you've taken off thus far, or will take in the future will be counted to your leave/sick time.

Do you have any reason to believe that is not what's happening?

If you've taken off more than you were allowed, or in any other way do not do your job to the required level of performance, you will be subject to the consequences already on the books."

That sounds fair to me.

We still have WAY too many unemployed people here in the U.S.A. to put up with this sort of junk. I worked a job for more than 20 years where, if I'd have even conspired to pull this stuff, I wouldn't have just been without a job -- I'd have wound up in prison!

Some of us are glad we do not live in an authoritarian state.

 

[Evo]

I like teachers and they do something I would not do (work with children). And this is not about teachers, but about union workers in industry.

I have worked in a company that was crippled by a union and worked first as an occupational employee that saw the anti-company mind set.

I refused to join the union. I was constantly harrassed by union workers. I was pulled aside by union stewards and threatened. I was told that I was working too hard. I was told that the union had worked hard for years to convince the company that people could not do that much work and that I was undoing all of their hard work.

The union workers were scum, they called for grievance meetings constantly. They did as little work as was allowable. They figured the company would go on no matter how little they did. There were two sides to the office, the non-union people that worked and the worthless union people that didn't.

I remember in Texas being at dinner with a labor lawyer for one of the largest newspapers. He pointed out that non-union workers were higher paid because they got merit raises, union workers could only get raises based on their contract. Non union members had better benefits because the company valued them higher for being better workers.

When I became management, it was incredible, no more union limitations. I could make my own hours, get merit raises, bonuses, take time off as I saw fit. I found out what I had suspected all along, the union employees had "negotiated" time frames to do jobs. For example they claimed they needed 72 hours to review a work order. They would wait until the 71st hour then reject the job asking some ridiculous question that was already answered. You'd respond "look at line 52", then 71 hours later they'd respond "oh yeah". By this time the company that wanted the job is fuming and you lose them to a company that is non-union. Can't blame them. And these deadbeat union workers wonder why they are being asked to take cuts?

It is my personal experience that current day unions exist to protect the worthless.

 

[Al68]

But Freedom of Association works both ways: employees are free to associate with employers and each other or not as they see fit, and so are employers.

As long as it is fair on both sides.

Freedom of Association means I have the right to associate, or not, with whoever I want with no regard whatsoever to anyone's idea of fairness. If a right is limited to what others think is fair, it's not a right.

There is no right to job security?

Of course not, not naturally. Such an entitlement could be the result of a specific agreement or contract, but it obviously doesn't and logically can't exist a priori.

Yes, exactly. Far more than the phrase "collective bargaining" generically means. And failure of an employer to agree to employee demands does not constitute violating their right to collectively negotiate for them. Neither would a refusal of an employer to negotiate at all. I have the right to negotiate for a lower price at a car lot, and refuse to buy (as leverage), but that right imposes no obligation on the car lot whatsoever.

I don't see how the right to car ownership is as important as the right to work, its an inadequate comparison IMO.

I wasn't making such a comparison. I made no mention of any right to either, I was referring to a right to negotiate one's own agreements, which applies to cars and jobs. Of course jobs are generally more important than cars, but the right of an individual to negotiate terms applies equally to both.

 

[cobalt124]

I have worked in a company that was crippled by a union and worked first as an occupational employee that saw the anti-company mind set.

I refused to join the union. I was constantly harrassed by union workers. I was pulled aside by union stewards and threatened. I was told that I was working too hard. I was told that the union had worked hard for years to convince the company that people could not do that much work and that I was undoing all of their hard work.

The union workers were scum, they called for grievance meetings constantly. They did as little work as was allowable. They figured the company would go on no matter how little they did. There were two sides to the office, the non-union people that worked and the worthless union people that didn't.

I remember in Texas being at dinner with a labor lawyer for one of the largest newspapers. He pointed out that non-union workers were higher paid because they got merit raises, union workers could only get raises based on their contract. Non union members had better benefits because the company valued them higher for being better workers.

When I became management, it was incredible, no more union limitations. I could make my own hours, get merit raises, bonuses, take time off as I saw fit. I found out what I had suspected all along, the union employees had "negotiated" time frames to do jobs. For example they claimed they needed 72 hours to review a work order. They would wait until the 71st hour then reject the job asking some ridiculous question that was already answered. You'd respond "look at line 52", then 71 hours later they'd respond "oh yeah". By this time the company that wanted the job is fuming and you lose them to a company that is non-union. Can't blame them. And these deadbeat union workers wonder why they are being asked to take cuts?

It is my personal experience that current day unions exist to protect the worthless.

That is certainly unions at their worst. From my own perpective, any workplace situation that makes a job in management look good is a true nightmare. On reading your post, the first thing I thought was "this is like a throwback to union relations in the U.K. in the 1950's". Then my second thought was of the following film from that time, which, having never experienced the situation you describe, I always saw as an extreme caricature, and very funny. Having watched a bit just now, and read your post, it seems frighteningly accurate and I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

 

[Gokul43201]

This protest really sucks. So far, casualties of the protest have been the Madison Winter-Fest (mostly canceled) and the Polar Plunge (lukewarm turnout). Ugh!

 

[nismaratwork]

Well, it appears that some firefighters have joined the protests, and doctors have set up shop to write 'notes' to excuse teachers. I don't think the AMA is going to look kindly on that, but it's still quite the statement.

 

[dlgoff]

I like teachers and they do something I would not do (work with children). And this is not about teachers, but about union workers in industry.

I have worked in a company that was crippled by a union and worked first as an occupational employee that saw the anti-company mind set.

I refused to join the union. I was constantly harrassed by union workers. I was pulled aside by union stewards and threatened. I was told that I was working too hard. I was told that the union had worked hard for years to convince the company that people could not do that much work and that I was undoing all of their hard work.

The union workers were scum, they called for grievance meetings constantly. They did as little work as was allowable. They figured the company would go on no matter how little they did. There were two sides to the office, the non-union people that worked and the worthless union people that didn't.

I'm totally with you here Evo. Unions are one thing but I've yet to see hard working union workers. BTW I'm retired and have "seen it all" and have never been a union member.

 

[nismaratwork]

How can you have "seen it all", if your entire experience didn't include being a member of a union? I've never been part of a union, so I wouldn't include that in my experience. You would seem to have actually disqualified yourself from an accurate view.

 

[dlgoff]

How can you have "seen it all", if your entire experience didn't include being a member of a union? I've never been part of a union, so I wouldn't include that in my experience. You would seem to have actually disqualified yourself from an accurate view.

I've had many friends who were union members, so I think I know what I'm talking about. Besides, while working for the State of Kansas, a Union was taking credit for raises when they weren't even recognized as such. Don't lecture me on unions. How old are you?

There was a time for unions, but not now.

 

[nismaratwork]

I've had many friends who were union members, so I think I know what I'm talking about. Besides, while working for the State of Kansas, a Union was taking credit for raises when they weren't even recognized as such. Don't lecture me on unions. How old are you?

There was a time for unions, but not now.

Whoa... I'm not lecturing you, I'm challenging your credentials; there's a difference. If you want to make such a broad set of statements claiming experience, it behooves you to share that experience... otherwise you're just making an appeal to your own authority.

It's nothing personal, but if you can find where I've lectured you, I'll be happy to apologize. Would it make you feel better if you called me "sonny"?

 

[dlgoff]

Well lecture might have been a little strong.

Examples? I live withing a couple of mile of the Union Pacific rail line (two line shipping coal to the east). I see these workers all the time working on the line. Six men with shovels. Five using them to lean on while only one works. Do you need more examples?

Do you think we need these:

"[URL of Unions and Associations
with Exclusive Recognition
in the Federal Service
January 2004 [/URL]

 

[turbo]

Hey, Nismar. I was the very first person in the history of Scott Paper company to transition from a salaried non-unionized position (process chemist) to an hourly unionized position (machine-tender on the world's most advanced high-speed coated paper machine). The resistance from HR was incredible, but I wanted that experience and the money (I doubled my take-home). One of my best friends' father was president of the union, and he threw the support of that union behind me so that HR eventually relented, though not without throwing lots of barriers in my way.

I became my shift's shop steward, and became the paper machine crew's representative on the contract negotiation team. During negotiations, I grew to be very good friends with the mill's new production manager, and we spent many, many weekends together afterward running white-water rivers in canoes and kayaks. The nasty truth about demonizing unions and their members is that aside from during contract negotiations when they want to make "greedy" union workers look bad in the press, large companies are quite happy about having collective-bargaining contracts. Their wages, benefits, pensions, work rules, etc, are all laid out for years in advance, giving them stability and a sense of certainty throughout the duration of the contract. I have been on both sides of that divide.

BTW, the work rules in our contract were not too permissive. Miss more than one day in a month without medical (or other) documentation? Verbal warning and a notation in your records. Miss another day in the next 90 days? Written warning and 3 days off without pay. Strike 3 and you're out. I mean fired with no chance of reinstatement. Our contract also stipulated that any shift could be held over for a double with no warning. Go into work a 12-hour shift, and get held over for a 24 because of a massive mechanical failure? Suck it up.

My brother-in-law used to rail against unions constantly, and say "nobody is worth that kind of money" regarding wages at the paper mill. I offered to recommend him for a job there, and his response was "no way I'd put up with that crap!" He knew that I often missed family outings, birthdays for the kids, etc, because of the shift-work, and that my wife had to cancel on our engagements for me when I was held over for double shifts. He was jealous of the good wages, but was unwilling to make the commitment necessary to earn them.

 

[nismaratwork]

Well lecture might have been a little strong.

Examples? I live withing a couple of mile of the Union Pacific rail line (two line shipping coal to the east). I see these workers all the time working on the line. Six men with shovels. Five using them to lean on while only one works. Do you need more examples?

Do you think we need these:

"[URL of Unions and Associations
with Exclusive Recognition
in the Federal Service
January 2004 [/URL]

I'm familiar with that, and to share my own experience, the only union folks I knew were postal workers. I've never been so afraid of a group in my LIFE... one of the guys smoked CRACK in the rafters in front of supervisors! I didn't work there, just visiting once with a friend, and it was absurd. I'm also intimately familiar over a couple generations with sanitation and food service unions, both of which seem to be criminal bastions.

So... no, I'm not challenging your content... I'm basically asking for more. I don't consider my own anecdotal experiences, however powerful, to be justification for me to damn unions, or praise them. I would also have to guess that unions are very much a product of just what is being unionized. I know I can't generalize from postal workers to police officers, but I also know of some pretty wretched cops. I know more good ones however, and they're not fleecing the system.

So, I'm very doubtlful of declaritive statements based on personal experience by nature, even if I agree with them... especially if I agree with them actually, becuase I WANT to believe.

So yes I find your personal experience interesting, but to bulk it up I need... bulk!

For what you've listed, I'll read through it, and respond once I have an actual answer, because right now I don't. I hope that you understand, this isn't about some particular doubt about you, it's just what I consider to be good process.