Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 crash

[russ_watters]

I mean, people are still looking for Amilia Earheart.

 

[DaveC426913]

OK, really, I'm not trolling. I'm actually curious and a bit confused about the level of interest.

What's the point? Why do we need to find the wreckage? What useful information is likely to be gained?
Is this like Fermat's last Theorem, just a puzzle to be solved? Or maybe something to get page views on SM?

Aircraft are lost and never found frequently (albeit smaller than this one). People in Darfur, Somalia, Burma, Gaza, and Afghanistan need closure for their loved ones deaths. Why this one?

• 239 families would like closure,
• Airline would like to know what went wriong and how they can mitigate it,
• Airline would like to be able to tell 239 families that its not airline's fault and not to sue them,
• It's one of the highest counts of 'lost, presumed dead' mysteries in aviation history,
• Undersea expedition has agreed to do the search on a "No Find, No Fee" basis.
• etc.

 

[pinball1970]

• 239 families would like closure,
• Airline would like to know what went wriong and how they can mitigate it,
• Airline would like to be able to tell 239 families that its not airline's fault and not to sue them,
• It's one of the highest counts of 'lost, presumed dead' mysteries in aviation history,
• Undersea expedition has agreed to do the search on a "No Find, No Fee" basis.
• etc.

and its interesting. It seems a little cold and ghoulish but the bottom line is that is an interesting puzzle, like the Marie Celeste.

 

[DaveC426913]

and its interesting. It seems a little cold and ghoulish but the bottom line is that is an interesting puzzle, like the Marie Celeste.

Cold and ghoulish? The whole world is still concerned about the fate of these 239 people even after 15 years. That seems the opposite.

We can't bring them back, but we can get closure and do what we can to ensure it doesn't happen again.

 

[pinball1970]

Cold and ghoulish?

Because it's interesting, I was speaking for myself.

 

[DaveC426913]

Because it's interesting, I was speaking for myself.

That's not ghoulish.

 

[pinball1970]

The whole world is still concerned about the fate of these 239 people even after 15 years

No one is concerned about them Dave, they are long dead.

do what we can to ensure it doesn't happen again

If a pilot decides he is going to deliberately kill everyone on his plane how are you going to stop him? Once he has taken off?

 

[pinball1970]

That's not ghoulish.

It's cold though or could be interpreted as such.
Mind you, this is physics forums, there is a lot of aviation tech involved so that is what is interesting, to me.

 

[DaveC426913]

No one is concerned about them Dave, they are long dead.

I disagree.

If a pilot decides he is going to deliberately kill everyone on his plane how are you going to stop him?

Thats a big 'if'. We don't know that's what happened.

And yes, if we somehow could know that's hpw it went down, there are defintely steps that could be taken to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Once he has taken off?

What does that have to do with it? You think there's nothing that could be done about the mental health of their pilots before the day-of?

And again, this is entirely based on your idea that it was deliberate sabotage. That is not determined.

And finding the plane might shed some light on that.

It's cold though or could be interpreted as such.

I can't speak to your mind. If you are being cold and ghoulish in your assessement of this event then who am I to argue?

Mind you, this is physics forums, there is a lot of aviation tech involved so that is what is interesting, to me.

Still not cold and ghoulish. Your idea of ghoulish and mine differ widely.


The last time I ever accused anyone of being "ghoulish" was a former friend who laughed giddily (his words) at the plight of the occupants of the OceanGate submersible because - according to him - they were all oligarchs and thus deserved any hubris that befell them.

What was ghoulish about it is that he was professing his glee while their fates were as-yet unknown.

 

[pinball1970]

What does that have to do with it? You think there's nothing that could be done about the mental health of their pilots before the day-of?

If they hide it no. You recall German Wings 9525?

I disagree

Dave we are quibbling over definitions here. We mourn the dead we are not concerned about them.
Wreckage of the plane has been found and the event was 12 years ago, no one is expecting them to show up on an Island somewhere.

What was ghoulish about it is that he was professing his glee while their fates were as-yet unknown.

Yeah that is not nice and nothing like this. I am interested in the tech and the mystery, that's it.

 

[Astronuc]

What's the point? Why do we need to find the wreckage? What useful information is likely to be gained?

In an aircraft crash, national safety boards (e.g.,. NTSB in the US) what to know what happened and what can be learned from the crash in order to prevent future occurrences. As part of an accident/crash investigation, recovery of the Cockpit Voice Recorder (VCR) and Flight Data Recorder (FDR) is a priority. The VCR may provide evidence of what the crew were doing in the cockpit. Safety authorities are interested in Crew Resource Management and communication. The FDR will show flight data which helps in recreating the flight up to the crash.

Beyond recovering the VCR and FDR, there may be some value in recovering parts of the plane.

As for the crew's (or pilot's) actions, safety authorities would have to do a forensic analysis of the crew's activities before before the flight. Is there any indication of some psychological issue that would have cause one of the crew to take control of the aircraft and divert from the flight plan. There are fitness-for-duty expectations; folks with responsibility for controlling/monitoring systems like aircraft or nuclear power plants are required to be fit-for-duty, and not under the influence of any substance that would impair judgement or performance. Usually, there is a background check to ensure a person is 'stable', or otherwise 'not a risk'.

As a result of the MH 370 crash and the German Wings intentional crash, airlines are left with trying to ensure that crew members are of sound mind, and as a safety measure, no one is left alone in the cockpit. Otherwise, flight computers would have to be in constant communication with airline operations on a secure channel, which would add risk of a cyberattack. On the other hand, an aircraft would require an autonomous control system (AI-based), which could take control of the aircraft and recover an aircraft to it's flight plan.

Recently, Garmin Autoland Safely Lands King Air After Pilot Incapacitation
https://avweb.com/aviation-news/garmin-autoland-safely-lands-king-air/

The crew of the Boeing 777-200ER, registered as 9M-MRO, last communicated with air traffic control (ATC) around 38 minutes after takeoff when the flight was over the South China Sea. The aircraft was lost from ATC's secondary surveillance radar screens minutes later but was tracked by the Malaysian military's primary radar system for another hour, deviating westward from its planned flight path, crossing the Malay Peninsula and Andaman Sea. It left radar range 200 nautical miles (370 km; 230 mi) northwest of Penang Island in northwestern Peninsular Malaysia.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370

Improvements could be made to aircraft surveillance. There would seem to be a need for an independent system that cannot be deliberately disabled by the crew.

It looks like various parties missed an opportunity to intercept the aircraft. There were gaps in the monitoring of the flight, especially once the aircraft stopped communicating with various ATC parties.

The search for the missing aircraft became the most expensive search in the history of aviation. It focused initially on the South China Sea and Andaman Sea, before a novel analysis of the aircraft's automated communications with an Inmarsat satellite indicated that the plane had travelled far southward over the southern Indian Ocean. The lack of official information in the days immediately after the disappearance prompted fierce criticism from the Chinese public, . . . .

National safety authorities have an interest in what happened and how to prevent it. Families of the victims still want answers.

If nothing else, we will receive more detailed mapping of the Indian Ocean.


Another issue with fly-by-wire or autonomous systems is the potential for upset events due to solar/cosmic radiation, some of which may cause single-event upsets (SEU), or 'bit-flips' in which a bit in a control system is flipped resulting if corrupted data or instruction. As transistors get smaller and more dense in microcircuits, radiation interaction becomes more problematic.

 

[DaveC426913]

If they hide it no. You recall German Wings 9525?

One example where it failed does not invalidate the principle.

We are not in the habit of saying "Well, theres no way we can keep tabs on anyone's mental health, so why would we even bother trying?"

Of course we bother! That it doesn't always work does not mean we stop trying.

Dave we are quibbling over definitions here. We mourn the dead we are not concerned about them.

You can't speak to what other people are concerned about.

There are uncountable aircraft mysteries happening all the time. The vast majority of them aren't part of a lively discussion on a physics forum after 14 years. This one is.

Wreckage of the plane has been found and the event was 12 years ago, no one is expecting them to show up on an Island somewhere.

Nor does anyone think they will! What does that have to do with anything?

No one is into this because we think they're coming back. We're in this because it is a tragedy and a mystery. And, while we can't change the past, or bring anybody back, it would be kind of awesome if we were able to say we helped prevent the next one.

I am interested in the tech and the mystery, that's it.

Aren't we all.

But this one has endured for 12 years. Partly because of the loss of life.


And even if you personally are only interested in it from a technical point of view that's still not ghoulish. Your motives are aligned with the interests of others, even if your particular motives differ.

Examples of ghoulishness:
- using the tragedy for you own gain,
- finding and selling off pieces of the craft for profit on the black market,
- making comics or memes about the tragedy for personal profit,
- hoping that more planes crash so that you can grow your business of taking advantage of tragedies.

The common elements there are taking advantage of a tragedy for personal gain and running counter to the motives of others who want closure. That's what ghoulish means.

That you don't actively mourn for the dead you have never met is not ghoulish. It just isn't.

 

[berkeman]

And, while we can't change the past, or bring anybody back, it would be kind of awesome if we were able to say we helped prevent the next one.

I think this is the bottom line, and I think we can all agree on that.

 

[Astronuc]

Nearly 78 years after her loss during the 25 October 1944 Battle off Samar, the wreck of the USS Samuel B. Roberts (DE-413) was located in the Philippine Sea and identified in June. She lies at a depth of 22,621 feet—making her the deepest shipwreck ever found, surpassing the record previously held by the wreck of the USS Johnston (DD-557), which lies at 21,180 feet.

Both ships were sunk in the same battle, and both were found by teams led by explorer Victor Vescovo, a retired U.S. Navy officer. (See “Crew Completes World’s Deepest Wreck Dive,” August 2021, p. 3.)

https://www.usni.org/magazines/nava...sammy-b-legendary-destroyer-escort-discovered

People look for sunken ships in the deep ocean, at challenging depths, so why not aircraft. At least they had an idea of where to look. In the case of MH 370, it's relatively light compared to a destroyer, the aircraft probably broke into pieces, and ocean currents could have transported it 100s or 1000s of km from the point of impact.

 

[Pythagorean]

No one is concerned about them Dave, they are long dead.

People are human and will still want closure

 

[pinball1970]

People are human and will still want closure

Right, agree. I just do not think anyone is concerned as in concerned for their safety.