God releases Satan ? Why God allow Evil to exist?

[ProtractedSilence]

I am going to omit Bible passages for now as this would be too long to read; but if there are specific questions about my post I will support with references.

God created Satan as an angel with free will, similarly with how people were created with free will. Evil entered the world because we used our free will to reject God's leadership. But because God loved us he still wanted to relate to us and provide a means for us to get back to Him. This method was through the death and resurrection of Jesus as payment for our transgressions against God. Because God loves us so much, but Satan is so opposed to God and his goodness, Satan has made it a point to devote his life to stealing away people from knowing God.

I reject the idea that there is only good, and so does the Bible. If everything is good, then murder is good, death is good, rape is good, etc. etc. This includes when these things happen to you. If everything is good then all actions by people are acceptable. I don't think this idea fits well with the way the world works, how we feel about things, or our inherent ideas about good and bad.

Now if God was really good, you might ask, why would he let evil exist? The answer is that for evil to not exist, God would have had to take away our free will. We wouldn't be left with the option to choose any longer. This is the effective death of morals, because morals are based on choosing from options a right way of acting, but if we had no choice but to love and accept God, it wouldn't really be love.

Now why would God not vanquish his enemy Satan immediately after he rebelled? God might do this because greater good could come out of letting him exist for a while than for snuffing him out immediately. God has chosen to use the fallen nature of the world, and Satan's work their to bring the best circumstances into each persons life so that they might choose to accept His love.

This is why God permitted Satan to torment Job (a righteous man) by murdering his family, slaves, livestock, taking away his friends and giving him boils on his skin. Through this experience Job realized that his righteous actions didn't mean that he deserved a reward - we are all flawed compared to God's standard and deserve death. He was then thankful to be alive, and to have the relationship with God that he did. God blessed him with a ne bigger family, riches, livestock, etc. after Job realized how good God really was.


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On religion

God isn't about religion (ceremonies, rituals, etc.) but He is about relationships with people. He wants to know each one of us in a deep personal way, instead of by formula or ritual, etc. Imagine that every time you saw a coworker or classmate throughout the day you said "Gee Bob, nice to see you again, its beautiful outside, talk to you later." You might see Bob 5 times a day and you would recite this to him each time. This is no basis for relating to someone.

People desire to relate to God through religious observances because it is easier to exclude God from our lives, except for doing a little dance or sitting in a pew every day or week or twice a year, etc. People doing these things feel good, while the don't really include or care about God at all.

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On Truth

The Bible claims to be the revealed word of God. Because its coming from God, it is the truth...there is no need for it evolve because it is already coming from the perfect creator God of the universe.

It is true that it was recorded by humans, but the Bible says that God's spirit (part of Himself) was living inside them and telling them what to write. I wouldn't take this as singular proof however. The Jews had a practice when copying the words of the prophets (Torah, OT, whatever you would like to call it) where they would copy the whole book down and then count from both the front and the back of the text for the middle letter. If this was off by even one character, they would burn the whole manuscript and start over, so that there was no chance of a mistake. This accuracy was also confirmed with the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Before discovery, the oldest OT manuscripts were from 980 A.D. These came from a different source and from 250 B.C. Once they were translated it was found that the two copies were 95% identical, and that the other 5% was in variation in spelling and some obvious slips of the pen.

The manuscripts from the NT come from within 30 years of the events they describe, close enough that if they were wrong, the real individuals who lived during the events could say, "hey, that's not right." Additionally, the modern Bible contains only books confirmed to be written by people who had seen Christ resurrected, the Apostles, those who were commissioned by Jesus to remember what they had seen and tesitfy about it with the power of the Holy Spirit.

There is a change in the covenant God has with people between the Jews and after Christ's death, but this was predicted throughout the prophecy of the OT. Religion wasn't evolving, it was following a plan to provide redemption to people's sin.

 

[olde drunk]

please put the bible aside. think for youself. IF, logically, you were god, what would you gain by having a human race??

after many years of pondering this question, IMHO, that gestalt needed experience. therefore, s/he/it enpowered us with freewill. so, within freewill we can do anything. doing anything isn't good or bad; it just is (s/he/it gains, expands regardless of what we do).

if you get stuck with what others have said or written you will be at the mercy of those ideas. when you seek and develop your own philosophy you will be truly free. even wrong thoughts, ideas and action expand s/he/it. you will glory in the grace of your just being. only problem is, are you willing to accept the responsibility of thinking for yourself?

once you choose this road, you are totally responsible for enjoying the consequences of ALL that you think, say and do. not everyone is willing to venture into such deep waters. only confidence in self will provide the courage.

peace,

 

[olde drunk]

oh yeah, my god inspires what i write. your god inspires what you write. do you write what you believe or what you were told is safe to believe.

you will pass on the word of god when you have explored your inner thoughts and ideas, AND then report your findings.

as i said, even if they(your words) might be a mistake, you and god will gain wisdom and/or experience which leads to an expanded universe.

peace,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

if I am thinking for myself, can't I choose not only to come with my own arguments but also to choose arguments that have already been made? If everything I write or say is limited because it has to be original and different from everything ever said or written before I don't really have the ability to choose or think freely do I?

I don't claim that God is writing through me. It is possible, but I don't know that. I think if you take an honest look at yourself you will see that God is not writing through you either. Are your words really what the creator of the universe would say? Are you so confident in your understanding of God that you have everything figured out about life...and this is why you are saying that your writing is inspired? I think it is far more likely that you have made some stuff up that makes you feel good, but when you honestly look at yourself you see that you are really ignoring the things about life that bother you, especially death...and so you write out these words hoping that when you write them you will see some explanation from them that is comforting for you.

I have already tried accepting the full consequences of what I think, say, and do. And you know what, it sucks! If the things that happen to me are truly all the result of my actions, thoughts, words...then I am hopelessly screwed, because even when I seem to be doing things "right" bad circumstances come to and mess me up. Why did these things happen?

God says that he is going to judge everyone in the world during the end times. There are three responses people are going to give Him when he asks, "Why should you get to go to heaven?"

1) "I don't deserve to go, but Jesus has paid for my sins and covered them from your sight." Jesus is going to testify for us on our behalf then and we will go to heaven.

2) "I don't derve to go to heaven, I was wicked."

3) "Well, I was a good person. I tried to help people and didn't murder anyone, etc etc." To which God will retort, "But were you perfect? If you are not perfect, and did not accept the path I had laid out to pay for sins, then you cannot enter into my presence."

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

let me rephrase that question a bit ... "what's in heaven that I should go to?"

 

[olde drunk]

if I am thinking for myself, can't I choose not only to come with my own arguments but also to choose arguments that have already been made? If everything I write or say is limited because it has to be original and different from everything ever said or written before I don't really have the ability to choose or think freely do I?

olde drunk- needless to say, i have read and studied many sources. when i make a statement it is mine. i am the authority. it may be a distillate of bible, mitchner, castenada, cayce et al, but it is my current belief. i do not need to quote anyone because if i am shown a better view, i will change my belief. i can't change what jesus or god said, so i am limited in what i can learn.

I don't claim that God is writing through me. It is possible, but I don't know that. I think if you take an honest look at yourself you will see that God is not writing through you either. Are your words really what the creator of the universe would say? Are you so confident in your understanding of God that you have everything figured out about life...and this is why you are saying that your writing is inspired? I think it is far more likely that you have made some stuff up that makes you feel good, but when you honestly look at yourself you see that you are really ignoring the things about life that bother you, especially death...and so you write out these words hoping that when you write them you will see some explanation from them that is comforting for you.


olde drunk - if god, whatever, wasn't within me i'd be dead. so when i interact with anyone i want to hear what they and their inner god have to say. i love being wrong. it helps me grow. my god encourages me to make mistakes. the biggest gains in my life were the result of my misunderstanding and impetuous acts.


I have already tried accepting the full consequences of what I think, say, and do. And you know what, it sucks! If the things that happen to me are truly all the result of my actions, thoughts, words...then I am hopelessly screwed, because even when I seem to be doing things "right" bad circumstances come to and mess me up. Why did these things happen?


olde drunk - i bet part of what you did was follow someone, something else's ideas of what you should've done. now, accept the fact that you screwed you(because you did) regardless of the dynamics. as i said above, your unconscious self wanted the "bad things" to happen so that you would be motivated to move on to bigger and better things.


God says that he is going to judge everyone in the world during the end times. There are three responses people are going to give Him when he asks, "Why should you get to go to heaven?"

1) "I don't deserve to go, but Jesus has paid for my sins and covered them from your sight." Jesus is going to testify for us on our behalf then and we will go to heaven.

2) "I don't derve to go to heaven, I was wicked."

3) "Well, I was a good person. I tried to help people and didn't murder anyone, etc etc." To which God will retort, "But were you perfect? If you are not perfect, and did not accept the path I had laid out to pay for sins, then you cannot enter into my presence."

Screw god, jesus and the white horses they rode in on! THERE AIN'T NO HEAVEN!

careful now, think. picture 'heaven' take a nice long time to envision all the food, women, etc you can eat. wait, think--------

now, how long before you get bored?

we do not need to be saved. there is no payment for sins or karma. we make a mistake and we trigger a negative life thread that motivates us to seek a solution. in the seeking - we grow and expand! the unknown of the universe is what drives our desires. what is beyond this world? 69 virgins? gimme a break. we don't really know and that's the wonder of it, exploring the unknown reaches of ourselves and the universe.

be back tonight, got to go get son from college for the holiday.

peace,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

First, If you would like me to read your comments, could you please use a non-italicized serif font?

The Bible's picture of heaven (Revelation 20, etc.) is that God is going to remake the world and make a New Jerusalem. Those who have a relationship with God before their death will live there in the presence of God. There is going to be work to do, and people to run the city, etc. The difference is going to be 1) God will be there in direct contact with us. 2) The world won't be filled with result of the fall of man; i.e. pain, hunger, anger, malice, etc. Everyone is going to relating to each other on a deep level the way married people are intended to interact here. It's going to be an exciting life of living with God, building relationships, doing satisfying work, and being genuinely useful.

olde drunk - You are no authority. You are not even an authority on why you work the way you do. You cannot say why you were created ,or how, or why you do the things you do. There is only one authority that knows those answers, God.

God and us are seperate, there is no need for you to be physically dead because you are separate from God. But you are currently and will continue to be spiritually dead without him.

I agree with you about being wrong. I don't love it, the feeling sucks, but it does help you grow a lot more than being right oftentimes. Hoever, the one thing I don't want to be wrong about is in my relationship with God. Because the stakes are too high for being wrong. I only believe what I do because I think it is the truth, and if I found evidence to say something else I would stop being a Christian. I would want to know what is the answer, as well as escape the suffering that Christians experience (if indeed Christianity were false). I would want to reorient my values to seek after as much money, fame, and power as possible because that's what American culture says is the answer right? Not just to go along with the crowd, but those things are "fun" aren't they.

But I think these things are not fulfilling in the end. I don;t think they lead anywhere. I see famous, rich, powerful movie stars that are miserable in marriages, addicted to drugs, in and out of prison, and hopelessly confused about life. I see people putting themselves through pain and torture of broken relationship after relationship in search of sexual satisfaction. The Bible says in Psalm 14:12 "There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death." I think this worldy wisdom is exactly what it is talking about.

I never followed someone for those 20 years. I grew up never having gone to church of any kind. I felt like there was something missing. I searched for it in books of many religions. I did not find it. Later God worked situations in my life to show me that He was there, did love me, had saved me from death, and wanted to relate to me. It was my own choice, based on evidence and experience.

Thanks for talking civilly with me olde drunk. I hope that you have a good weekend with your family.

 

[olde drunk]

sorry about the fonts. doing a quickie here so it maybe compact. OK. I know where you're at. i remember that feeling of grace when you find god. it is special. i won't rain on your parade.
may i suggest that when this too, starts to feel like god let you down 'the why me' type thing, that you renew your exploration or search. god is within all of us, which is why i am my authority and i do not need to be saved.
this is the new jerusalem, i am working with god.to make a better world. after this life i will move on to our next goal. all negatives in my life, I CHOOSE. they were not foisted on me by any god or higher power.

i am not the devil. there is no devil. those ideas are metaphors; most bible stories are.

peace,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

The stories in the Bible don't claim to be metaphors, but they do claim to be truth. For example, the Gospels say they are testimony to what "they have seen and heard"

usually when I feel like "God let me down," it is because I have become completely self absorbed in my thoughts, and forgotten what he has already done for me.

I'm glad that you are working for a better world, so am I. I just disagree that you choose the neagtives. You can decided to respond poorly to negatives, but people don't choose their parents dying, cripling diseases, hunger, relationship turmoil, etc.

I know you aren't the devil. But I do know he exists, and I have seen him try to screw things up actively in my life and in others. If there is personal messaging or something on this website (I'm new), or just email I will give you a good example, its just a little too personal to throw out on the internet.

nice chatting

 

[olde drunk]

logically, why would any god "INFLICT" misery on any soul?

sins of our parents?

sins of mankind? why? i didn't do anything!

BUT if i choose to be born under miserable cricumstances--- now it makes sense. I WANT to learn a new lesson from a miserable beginning.

listening to those who have witnessed anything is hearsay. actually it should be called heresey. they pass on their message as the word of god.

i found it easier to accept broader concepts when i saw 'god' as an energy source and no an idealized 'father' figure.

being all loving and just s/he/it would not impose suffering on an innocent soul.

that would be grossly unfair.

peace,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

olde drunk, I don't think you thought about the implications of the alternative you present.

Look at the situation this way:

God creates man with free will. Man chooses to use his free will to reject God and what God says is good, both in the absolute sense and what is good for people coming from their designer. We chose the misery, but God had to accept that as a possibility if he wanted to create beings that were truly free to love. If we can only do good things, then we don’t have a choice anymore, and we are forced into action.

So the Bible says that Adam and Eve chose to reject God’s leadership, and because of their choice, evil entered the world. Because of their choice, all of their descendents had this characteristic of wanting to decide right and wrong for themselves instead of taking God’s word for it. It is the natural state of people to want to do this. Every person starts out in life alienated from God like this, and that is what each of us have minimally done against God. But more than that, each of us does act in evil ways. Even if we do not kill, commit adultery, or steal; we do hate, lust, and are selfish. The second category is just as bad as the first, because in your mind you have already objectified other people, or murder the person with your heart. And because of these bad things inside of us, we are alienated from a perfect God that cannot associate with us or else he becomes imperfect.

Now what punishment do we deserve? Well, since God is the creator of all things, he is the righteous judge of all things. His scale is not “do your good things outweigh the bad?”, but it is instead, “are you perfect?” Everyone must answer in honesty, “No.” So what is the punishment for not being perfect, because of our choices to reject God? It is spiritual (and the less important physical) death (separation from God), he warned Adam and Eve that it would be so. This may seem harsh, but we have committed the greatest crime possible, we have rebelled against our loving creator without reason. An analogy might be if you’re a parent, and you do a good job raising your kids. You love them, and discipline them only for their own good. You do not spoil them, and they are well-adjusted socially. You make sacrifices for them from yourself. One day they come to you and say, “I hate you, I want nothing to do with you, leave us alone.” for no reason. You would be upset wouldn’t you? Is that what you deserve as a parent? Is there any reason to explain it? There would be separation between you until they decide to stop hating. This is how we have treated God.

So my answer then is, there are NO innocent souls. We have all rebelled against God, both in thought and action. For God to be just he must judge our goodness, otherwise he must let everyone into a relationship despite what they have done. Hitler and Mother Theresa both get a “Good Job!” and a gold star from God.

This seems like a terrible predicament with no escape, but God wanted a relationship with us badly enough that he provided a way for the debt we owe to be paid. He sent His son down here to live as a person and make payment for us. Because He was human, He could pay for humanities sin. Because he was God, He as a single person could pay for all of the sins past, present and future of the entire human race. Now the escape from our debt is simple, because Jesus has already paid for the sins. Each individual can make the personal choice to ask God to have Jesus’ death to pay for their sins. Just asking this restores a direct relationship with God once again, and he blesses each person in many ways, including putting a piece of Himself, the Holy Spirit, inside of you to live in you and help you communicate with God.

 

[olde drunk]

we are as perfect as we can be, in each moment of our lives. we are doing exactly what we are supposed to be doing. not because we were told to do this or that, but because we choose to.

all souls are innocent and good. how could god punish you for what adam and eve did? that is unjust. my children were born out of love and they did rebel, one almost destroyed our home. i still love her as much as when at 4-5 she would run upstairs yelling 'I hate you'. a loving parent knows it isn't true. a loving parent allows for mistakes.

a loving parent would not punish a child for an alleged 'sin' committed by their long ago grandparents (adam and eve).

a loving god with infinite wisdom and justice can not be a contradiction. what if the government decided to punish your children because you cheated on yur taxes?? or because you committed crimes of treason?

we are all good and worthy. no one is greater or lesser. christ was an enlightened teacher. IMHO, his words were for that era. it is time to embrace all teachings and not deify christ. i never committed a sin needing salvation.

peace,

 

[Lorentz]

Now what punishment do we deserve? Well, since God is the creator of all things, he is the righteous judge of all things. His scale is not “do your good things outweigh the bad?”, but it is instead, “are you perfect?” Everyone must answer in honesty, “No.” So what is the punishment for not being perfect,

So what you're saying is that we aren't perfect and we have to get punished for that?

Didn't God make us unperfect in the first place?

 

[Lorentz]

The stories in the Bible don't claim to be metaphors, but they do claim to be truth. For example, the Gospels say they are testimony to what "they have seen and heard"

Saying that to me would mean I will take you less seriously. Because there's no way you could convince me those stories truly happened. If they were true then we wouldn't have the discussion about a God, because it would be clear to us then. Having said that I can see why you believe... if you believe the stories to be true, why wouldn't you believe in that same God?

Did you question the stories? What did you come up with?

 

[ProtractedSilence]

Olde drunk,

I really disagree with your comment that we are each as perfect as we can be. If we are all perfect then how do you explain Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, or just the neighborhood murderer? I think that some of these type of actions are influenced by environment, but people still make choices to act. That means they are responsible for their actions because they chose to do them. If one of my friends talks badly about me to someone else I have at least two choices: 1) start talking bad about them, 2) Ask them why they did it and tell them that it hurt. Both are not “perfect choices”, one seeks to hurt while the other to heal.

It is a valid concern to wonder about people who never heard about Jesus. Here is an excerpt from a webpage that describes some of the issues involved:

1. Will God condemn all those who have never heard the Gospel?
While the Bible insists that all people are saved only through Jesus Christ, it does not say that people can only be saved if they hear about Jesus Christ.
(C.S. Lewis) " . . . God has not told us what his arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no person can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him." (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (New York: Touchstone, 1996), p. 65.)
• The Bible clearly teaches that God is just. Psalm 89:14 says, "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; love and faithfulness go before you."
In Genesis 18:25, Abraham rightly asserts "Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the Earth do right?"
There are many implications of justice, but one of them is that one is held responsible only for information which he has received—not for information which he has not received. Paul upholds this principle with regard to sin in Romans 4:15 when he says, " . . . where there is no law there is no transgression."
• The Bible also teaches that God gives a significant amount of revelation about himself to the person "without the Bible. " Paul declares in Romans 1:18-20 that God has "made it evident" to such people not only that he exists, but also that he has certain attributes: namely, tremendous power and creative intelligence. These attributes have been revealed "through what has been made"—through the order of the external universe.
Paul says in Romans 2:14,15 that people without access to special revelation ("the Gentiles who do not have the Law") also know that God is a morally righteous Being. They know this because of the moral conscience, which he has instilled in each person. These passages make two important points.
First: The amount of light is considerable. God reveals to the unevangelized that he is powerful, personal (because he is intelligent and righteous). Man's conscience also convicts him that he has violated God's righteous character (Romans 2:15). Responding to this light properly would mean humbly coming before God asking for mercy. Thus, though the means of man's forgiveness is not revealed through general revelation, the need for it is revealed.
Second: The point of Paul's argument in Romans 1 and 2 is that these people have been given enough light to be justly condemned. But it would seem to follow (because of God's justice) that this would also be enough light to be saved-if people respond to it properly.
Another biblical fact is relevant to this question. Old Testament believers were saved by their faith before the Jesus came. Hebrews 11 lists many Old Testament figures who fit this description. Old Testament Jews had access to special revelation, but they had no clear understanding of God's plan of salvation, because the fact that the Messiah must die for our forgiveness was not clearly revealed (Luke 24:44-47; 1 Peter 1:10-12). Furthermore, some of the Old Testament people who were saved (like Melchizedek and Job) had little or no access to the special revelation to Abraham.
Another possibility is that God will judge based on his knowledge of how people would have responded had they heard the message.
Conclusion: If the "person without the Bible" responds properly, (as defined above) to the light God has given him, he would be saved by grace through faith by asking God for mercy. He will be saved only through the death of Christ, because "no man comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6). In this way, the unevangelized person today is much like the Jew before the time of Christ: he is justified before God by responding in faith to the light, which he has. (For an extensive discussion see Donald Richardson. Eternity in Their Hearts.)
Two important qualifications need to be mentioned at this point.
Qualification #1: Does this mean any unevangelized person who is a devout follower of his religion will be saved?
By no means. Most world religions are animistic, polytheistic, or pantheistic. But Romans 1 teaches that the truly open person will recognize that there is one God who is intelligent and personal, and that worshipping other god(s) is therefore an act of willful rebellion. Again, virtually all world religions teach a "works" approach to the deity—that the acceptance of the deity is attained by human effort through good works and/or ritual observance. But Romans 2:14,15 teaches that humans instinctively know that they are morally guilty before God and therefore have no claim on God's acceptance based on their own effort (works or ritual). Therefore, those who respond to God's general revelation by casting themselves on his mercy will be at odds with crucial elements in their native religious setting. Missionaries have reported many such people who responded quickly to their message of the one true God and his way of salvation.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

Part II:

Qualification #2: If people can be saved apart from hearing the gospel, is evangelism and missions necessary?
• This question, if answered "no", would render Christ's commission to "make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19) pointless. The answer is "yes" because there is evidently a general correspondence between the amount of light given and the number of people who repent and are saved.
• Jesus teaches this principle in Matthew 11:20-24. He says that Tyre, Sidon and Sodom would have repented if they had received the light that Capernaum, Chorazin and Bethsaida had received.
• This principle is also readily observed in history. While probably some Africans responded properly to the light of general revelation and were thus saved, clearly they were a small minority in unevangelized Africa judging by the paganism which pervaded Africa in the mid 1800's. It is no coincidence that today, after 150 years of missionary activity, almost 50% of Black Africans are evangelical Christians. Therefore, the number of people who get saved through general revelation is probably very small, and this fact preserves the strategic importance of Jesus' mission mandate.
Note: Furthermore, people who get saved by responding to general revelation have fewer spiritual resources available to them than individuals who hear and respond to the gospel. They would be like the "disciples" that Paul met in Acts 19:1-6. These men were evidently saved, but did not receive the Holy Spirit until Paul explained the gospel to them. The gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as well as the other New Covenant ministries of the Holy Spirit, may be given only to those who have heard and responded to the message of salvation through Jesus Christ.
2. Is there justice in God's judgment?
We think, "It just doesn't seem fair for God to judge people and sentence them to hell." I don't like the idea, and neither does God (Eze. 18:23,32)—but consider these points:
• Can we trust our ability to judge what is fair for ourselves?
People tend to think that what they do is not very bad and does not deserve much punishment. Most prisoners believe that they are sentenced too severely. Because of our imperfect criminal justice system, some of them probably are—but it is highly unlikely that most of them are. Children demonstrate that this is an inborn attitude. This is why we don't let children or criminals choose their own punishments; they tend to go too soft on themselves. But God's judgment is perfect. He knows all the factors, every mitigating circumstance—and on that day he will demonstrate that he has been absolutely fair in his judgment.
• Furthermore, the alternative to this—universalism—is definitely not fair.
Is it fair for people to never be called to account for their actions? Is it fair that wicked people and not the righteous God have the last word on evil (STALIN: safe to the end, clenched fist at the end)? Is it fair for repentant people to spend eternity with an unrepentant STALIN? Is it fair for God to allow this world to go on for so long if he will send everyone to heaven? If people can't make a decision about where to spend eternity during this life, what is the point? If there is no ultimate accountability for our lives, then what is the difference between heaven and hell?
• Finally, this objection assumes that we have a proper moral standard by which to evaluate whether God's judgment is fair or unfair.
Most Americans believe that if there is a hell, only really bad people will go there. But there is a fatal flaw in this belief. How bad is bad enough? If Mother Theresa is good enough to go to heaven, and if Stalin is bad enough to go to hell, should we draw the line exactly halfway between them? What if you were one sin on Stalin's side of that line (that bad thought you had about your mother when you were ten years old)? Is this fair? No matter where you draw the line in this scenario, you always have the same dilemma. The Bible rejects this answer for one simple reason: it draws the line at God's moral perfection (Jas. 2:10; Matt. 5:48; Rom. 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.). It makes perfect sense, and God is certainly within his rights to draw it here. However, it is really bad news because it means all of us—Stalin, Mother Theresa, you, me—are under God's judgment. But the good news is that God has offered to take the rap for all of us. He says he has come in the Person of Jesus to bear God's judgment for us on the cross (2 Cor. 5:21). Now the way is open for all of us to escape God's judgment—if we put our trust in his payment. That's news you won't find anywhere but in Christianity.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

Also, we are not punished because of ancestors mistake, we are punished because we personal choose to act without God. THis is a result of our character being changed because of the actions of others, but it is an inherent charactersitic of people to turn away from God.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

Lorentz,

Sorry to take a long time to respond. My computer won’t let me see these forums from home for some reason. To answer your questions:

1) God made us perfect, but he wanted to make creatures that had free will. Part of giving a being free will is to accept the possibility that they may choose against their creator.
2) I guess I would ask what stories you specifically don’t believe? Do you believe any of it is true (the Bible)? It will affect where I start explaining. I believe in fully examining any text, including the Bible. This includes looking at the context for a verse, passage, or book, looking at the culture of the time, seeing who the text was written to, and who it was written by. And also how the culture of the day viewed the text.

Applying these things to the Bible it can be seen that the works are self-consistent and it claims to be the description of true events – and God’s words. The people of the day thought it was true, and archaelogical evidence has supported most everything that archaelogists have studied about Biblical places.

You would be surprised, some people believe the stories and still don’t believe in God. I don’t think that makes much sense either though.

I was an athiest for the first 20 years of my life. I was downright hostile towards them. I questioned the validity of the stories a lot. A number of things happened to get me to investigate what the Bible says (if you like I will go more into detail here), but after a while, I wanted to believe in the God of the Bible. But I thought it was just emotions saying that, and that the facts didn’t back it up. So I asked my friend for a copy of “A Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. This guy is a Harvard Law graduate who went out to prove how fake Jesus was. In the process of interviewing people and examining the evidence, he became a Christian. The book is a description of the interviews and the evidence he found for the questions he had. I got half way through this book and decided that the facts really were there for the stories about Jesus.

Some of the things that were impactful to me, about the validity of the stories:

1) There are more than 1000 complete manuscripts of the new testament that we have written between 120-300 A.D. (which is within 30 years of some of the events they describe, so that people still alive could correct them). There are 5000 full manuscripts plus fragments from the same period. They are all virtually identical, and that is what is used as the basis for the modern translation of the Bible (NASB, NIV, NRSV) – straight from Greek to English. In contrast, the oldest copy in existence of The Illiad is 2000 years after when it was written, and there are just two copies of that age. In fact, of all historical documents, it is the most verifiable and accurate because of the number of independent copies that exist and check with one another, and the closeness of the documents to when the events happened.
2) The disciples all believed what they had written and believed about Jesus to be true, because they were willing to die for it when just telling the Roman officials, “I didn’t see Christ resurrected" would have gotten them freedom (normally, confessions to the Romans only ensured a quick death).
3) 100 years ago archaeologists were certain that the Biblical account of geography (of towns and such) was completely fabricated. An example is in the accuracy of Luke, which originally considered to be completely false. The renowned Sir William Ramsey (England) was at the top of his field (in the world) and set out to prove just how false Luke was by examining the sites he records in that Gospel. After years of study in the Middle East, Ramsey’s position on Luke had changed. He eventually classified “the beloved physician” (Col. 4:14) as one of “the very greatest of historians” who ever lived (Luke the Physician, p. 222). He found that in making reference to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands he (Luke) made no mistakes!"

There are more, but these are just a few of the things I found when I began to really research the authenticity of these stories.

 

[olde drunk]

Also, we are not punished because of ancestors mistake, we are punished because we personal choose to act without God. THis is a result of our character being changed because of the actions of others, but it is an inherent charactersitic of people to turn away from God.

how in god's name did i act without god? i was born innocent but i am punished for the acts of others?

nah, you were born innocent and accepted the propaganda that you must accept god's will when something went wrong. you had to deserve it, he is most just.

honest injun, i went through 12 years of catholic education (including altarboy) and understand the process. it has taken over 40 years to undo their ideas. unfortunately, there were 35 years of booze, 2 marriages and a lot of thinking to understand that i did it all to myself. i include the choice of when, where and how i was born. to accept a concept you must apply it to all logical events.

once i accepted full responsiblity for my reality/experience, i understood so much more. my god, (whoever, whatever s/he/it is), is there to help, not judge. we can do no wrong.

peace & love,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

I will ask you again (don't remember if it was in this thread or others); If we can do no wrong, how do you explain the Holocaust, Cambodia, Russia under Stalin, mass murderes like Ted Bundy, and just average theivery and crime?

Do you think that these people acting rightly?

 

[olde drunk]

I will ask you again (don't remember if it was in this thread or others); If we can do no wrong, how do you explain the Holocaust, Cambodia, Russia under Stalin, mass murderes like Ted Bundy, and just average theivery and crime?

Do you think that these people acting rightly?

i am not sure you're going to like this, so hang on!

there are no victims. now, slow down! i did not say they asked to be harmed or injured. this is complicated so try to feel the value of this concept because it goes against most of what we believe happens day to day.

1. we, each of us, create or co-create our reality. (we won't go into how. QM?)

2. there is no right or wrong, simply 'experience' to expand our own and god's consciousness.

3. our 'present' is the focus of past and future proablity threads. we are living a probabilty thread based on our individual desired goal.

4. let's deal with hitler - probably the biggest of the baddest--

5. he came to power thru the spiritual need of, or lack of leadership. while we are all creating our individual reality, we also add our energy to the mass reality of our neighborhood, community, state, country, world.

6. it is important to realize that through the mass reality we are helping our fellow man accomplish his goals and vice-versa.

7. back to adolph, he was well intentioned and did a lot of good for germany, before he got carried away.

8. within the group dynamics we have a race that believes that it is better to 'turn the other cheek', we have another group that believes that they are the master race. (lol, chosen people meets chosen race). I AM NOT MAKING LITE OF THIS HISTORY.

9. the two groups AGREED to play out the holocaust for the growth of civilization. they did not ask to be victim and purpetrator, circumstances of their individual goals put them in line to agree to these roles for the progress of mankind.

10. hopefully we will always remeber the holocaust and be able to avert another.

11. it is important to understand that what we see as victims, did not ask to be harmed or injured. they agreeded to the experience for their individual reason, some for the betterment of mankind, some to satisfy a desire to experience an unusual death.

i am not saying that this is EXACTLY how it happens, i am not that in tune with the universe. but, after years and years of thought, this concept fills all the holes i find/found in traditional thinking.

relax, tell the universe where you want to go and the universe will take you there.

peace and love,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

Well, I disagree. But thank you for clearly explaining what you mean, it helps a lot.

If I create my own reality, why do I need other people at all?
Why don't things always go how I desire?

And if the two parts of society in Germany agreed for the good of society to live out the Holocaust, why would we need to avert another? Society has grown because of it right?

I don't think that people agreed to die an unusual death. You would have to show me proof for me to buy that.

Let's try another situation: I go to sleep one night after a party and while I am sleeping, someone comes by and sets my house on fire and me and four others die asleep in the flames. Now did I get the choice to participate in this? This happened (of course not with me) at my college last spring.

Or another: A girl I graduated high school with had an older brother going to school at a police academy. She asked to see his issue pistol. She unloaded the round out of the chamber and then unloaded the clip out of the gun, and then told her brother that the gun was unloaded. She then asked him to show her the fast draw. He drew and pulled the trigger, and the round in the chamber (proper unloading sequence is clip and then chamber) shot her directly in the chest at close range. She died. Did she choose to die? Did her brother choose to kill? I think they both had unexpected things happen to them.

 

[einsteinian77]

what if there was no good or bad? that the world just 'is'.

did we construct a devil as a better means of understanding a god?

what if god is the universe? would we need a devil?

so, if we change our understanding of god will we remove the basis for having a devil?

personally, i think it is time for us to grow up and go beyond the myths of the ancients. all the old texts are guides for living. they can not be faultless. after all they were transcribed and translated by humans.

it is time to redefine our spiritual foundation without a 'god and/or devil'.

ah hell, there would be an economic slow down as all churches were removed from the money flow BUT we would bounce back.

An authentic sign of the end of the world.

 

[Rader]

666

i am not sure you're going to like this, so hang on!

there are no victims. now, slow down! i did not say they asked to be harmed or injured. this is complicated so try to feel the value of this concept because it goes against most of what we believe happens day to day.

1. we, each of us, create or co-create our reality. (we won't go into how. QM?)

2. there is no right or wrong, simply 'experience' to expand our own and god's consciousness.

3. our 'present' is the focus of past and future proablity threads. we are living a probabilty thread based on our individual desired goal.

4. let's deal with hitler - probably the biggest of the baddest--

5. he came to power thru the spiritual need of, or lack of leadership. while we are all creating our individual reality, we also add our energy to the mass reality of our neighborhood, community, state, country, world.

6. it is important to realize that through the mass reality we are helping our fellow man accomplish his goals and vice-versa.

7. back to adolph, he was well intentioned and did a lot of good for germany, before he got carried away.

8. within the group dynamics we have a race that believes that it is better to 'turn the other cheek', we have another group that believes that they are the master race. (lol, chosen people meets chosen race). I AM NOT MAKING LITE OF THIS HISTORY.

9. the two groups AGREED to play out the holocaust for the growth of civilization. they did not ask to be victim and purpetrator, circumstances of their individual goals put them in line to agree to these roles for the progress of mankind.

10. hopefully we will always remeber the holocaust and be able to avert another.

11. it is important to understand that what we see as victims, did not ask to be harmed or injured. they agreeded to the experience for their individual reason, some for the betterment of mankind, some to satisfy a desire to experience an unusual death.

i am not saying that this is EXACTLY how it happens, i am not that in tune with the universe. but, after years and years of thought, this concept fills all the holes i find/found in traditional thinking.

relax, tell the universe where you want to go and the universe will take you there.

peace and love,

666 Now I know why you do not like Latin.

 

[olde drunk]

666 Now I know why you do not like Latin.

THERE AIN'T NO DEVIL, EITHER!

see, i didn't waste dem 3 years of latin.

love & peace,

 

[olde drunk]

Well, I disagree. But thank you for clearly explaining what you mean, it helps a lot.

If I create my own reality, why do I need other people at all?
Why don't things always go how I desire?

And if the two parts of society in Germany agreed for the good of society to live out the Holocaust, why would we need to avert another? Society has grown because of it right?

I don't think that people agreed to die an unusual death. You would have to show me proof for me to buy that.

Let's try another situation: I go to sleep one night after a party and while I am sleeping, someone comes by and sets my house on fire and me and four others die asleep in the flames. Now did I get the choice to participate in this? This happened (of course not with me) at my college last spring.

Or another: A girl I graduated high school with had an older brother going to school at a police academy. She asked to see his issue pistol. She unloaded the round out of the chamber and then unloaded the clip out of the gun, and then told her brother that the gun was unloaded. She then asked him to show her the fast draw. He drew and pulled the trigger, and the round in the chamber (proper unloading sequence is clip and then chamber) shot her directly in the chest at close range. She died. Did she choose to die? Did her brother choose to kill? I think they both had unexpected things happen to them.

i have no problem with your disagreement. please give me your reason these things happen.

to be at the mercy of a god seems very, very unjust for a supreme being. why should i suffer because s/he/it was PMSing on a given day.

why do race drivers die in firey crashes? yeah, they enjoyed going fast and cheating death. they also choose their way of dying. or mountain climbers, or solidiers, does god insist that they take unusual risks??

i'm willing to change this outline, if i am given an intelligent, logical reason. so far, reviewing my life and my events, this makes the most sense. again, adding reincarnation to the mix, helps us see how we grow and expand our awareness(consciousness) through our physical existence.

love & peace,

 

[theamazingTWOeyedman]

Satan is a force, not a person in the sense you would think, destroying Satan would destroy our free will. God wants us to choose to love him, not to be forced to. If there was no good/evil, we'd have no choice but to be good right? Destroying evil would also destroy good, because on a white sheet of paper you cannot see a white dot, it just blends in.

 

[loseyourname]

If God is all-good, then he cannot choose evil. Does this mean God has no free will? If that is the case, why would he feel it is important for us to have it?

 

[honestrosewater]

God wants us to choose to love him, not to be forced to.

And God is willing to put us through hell to get what He wants?
Think about your post "What is 'good'?"

How would you define good? Even some of the good things you do impact others in a bad way. How about this... If you do something "good" to someone just for personal gain, is it still a good deed? Is good perhaps just something that if you were in the recievers shoes would appriciate?

How would you define good?

Happy thoughts
Rachel

 

[olde drunk]

We are in the process of becomming. Within the process all experience brings us closer to our goal. So, all experience is worthwhile; neither good nor bad.

Experience just IS.

loveNpeace
olde drunk