God releases Satan ? Why God allow Evil to exist?

[Mumeishi]

There *is* supposed to be a separation between us and God. Why else would the phrase 'closer to God' have any meaning?

Humanity does not have the power to release or create a being of supernatural evil like that. Anyway, God still permits him to exist.

Hey I just thought of something! According to many Christians, God tolerates man's inhumanity to man without intervention, because he does not want to interfere with our freewill right? Well, why then does he allow Satan to intervene by 'tempting humans to the dark side'? That would interfere with our freewill too - and since Satan is really an agent of Yahweh ('God') or at least created and tolerated by him, then in fact Yahweh *is* intervening indirectly to thwart our good intentions, to actively create evil in the world.

Does that make sense for an omni-benevolent god? No. Why not?
(Hint: it's all superstitious clap-trap)

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by FZ+
The trouble I have with this is the justification of the world "therefore". The observation that generally a state of things exist where one concept is complemented by another does not avoid the question of why this neccessity first arose, except as the explicit will of God.

By deduction then, it seems more logical for God not to be singularly good, but to be also a combination of opposites, and thus to have created an universe to fit his character.

Although we see in stereo, our vision is singular -- except that with stereo we also see "in depth" -- much in the way the "two faces" of reality are perceived as one. And yet once we've fallen from grace, we seek to justify ourselves (via folly and error) by pitting the one extreme against the other, and use this to "crucify" that which is neutral and "bears witness" to our intemperance ...

This therein is where the evil lies ...

 

[FZ+]

In english?

 

[Mumeishi]

[suppressed snigger]

 

[Iacchus32]

*delete*

 

[Iacchus32]

First you have extremism, which exists to the far left and the far right, and you have that which is neutral and balanced that exists between the two extremes, which is temperate and mild. This is where our "singularity exists," and it's called the temperate zone.

And yet, when we're forced to choose sides, and strife (evil) enters the picture (through intemperance), we begin to play the two ends against the middle, and it's this middle ground which suffers the most (and in effect is crucified), because it hasn't fully evolved -- or, "overcompensated" -- to deal with the extremism of either side.

Haven't you ever heard of, "Playing the two ends against the middle?"

Well, I'm sure somebody can understand what I'm saying here? ...

 

[Mumeishi]

What is to the left and right?

Good and evil?
Liberalism and conservativism?
The two hemispheres of the brain?
Or something else?

 

[Iacchus32]

So, do we experience singularity by the understanding of dualism? Or, do we come into dualism by our inability to comprehend singularity? Hmm ...

In the beginning man was both male and female or, at least perceived as such, living in "spiritual harmony." This was their state before the fall, when their spirits were still capable of merging.

 

[FZ+]

Well, I'm sure somebody can understand what I'm saying here? ...

Yes, but I don't seen any relevance.

I am saying that your sense of how good and evil work comes from our world today, and so by looking at that, and our attitude, we would only see what was made. The experience that good is need for evil etc does not turn into a neccessity - this is just what turned out in this case, and what theism require as by the explicit will of god. The question reaches further than what you are addressing - the question is why we experience it this way, and the only obvious conclusion it that we cannot have begun from the extreme. Starting from the point of the world we see, there seems no way to reason out a god that is not neutral.

If you are making a point, I really can't tell what it is.

 

[mikelus]

if there was no evil in the world would there be god?

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by FZ+
If you are making a point, I really can't tell what it is.

All I'm saying is that evil comes into existence out of a state of our being misaligned with what is singular or "neutral." And, that by going to extremes -- perhaps because we're not ready to face up to our own inadequacies -- we bring on all the suffering and strife that exists in the world.

 

[Loren Booda]

God gives us the knowledge to choose freely between Godliness and ignorance.

A world without evil would be Heaven. There are some people on Earth who ignore evil but think they are in Heaven, and many others here who battle evil daily but still keep faith in Eternity.

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by mikelus
if there was no evil in the world would there be god?

Why not? When God created a perfect world (heaven) with no evil it, God existed right?

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
All I'm saying is that evil comes into existence out of a state of our being misaligned with what is singular or "neutral." And, that by going to extremes -- perhaps because we're not ready to face up to our own inadequacies -- we bring on all the suffering and strife that exists in the world.

Because we are not neural, evil comes into being? Because we choose good or evil instead of neutrality? Even if we choose neutrality ourselves it doesn't stop others from choosing evil (other who may seek to overwhelm us) - it just means that because we are neutral we tolerate 'evil'.
Anyway neutrality is not goodness.

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
God gives us the knowledge to choose freely between Godliness and ignorance.

So goes the story. How do you know?

Originally posted by Loren Booda
A world without evil would be Heaven. There are some people on Earth who ignore evil but think they are in Heaven, and many others here who battle evil daily but still keep faith in Eternity.

I don't think this answers any questions about why God tolerates evil and Satan does it? A good and powerful God would create heaven and leave it at that. What goodness has been done by creating evil? It has (supposedly) turned people away from God, caused great suffering and damned many billions. Nice one!

He created a corrupt world and a flawed and corruptable race to live in it, then obscured his own existence from the majority of the population, then punishes them for 'straying off the path'. What is 'good' or even 'sane' about that?

Imagine someone bred intelligent primates with a flawed, violent and unpredictable character and then left them to kill each other and to top things off, he watched their behavior and took the ones that broke the rules and tortured them to death. Would we consider these actions to be 'omnibenevolent' ? No (although some of the primates who were lucky enough to believe in him might sycophantically regard him as such). Would he be morally accountable for the behavior and neglect of the animals? Yes. Would he be accountable for having them tortured to death? Most certainly. Rather than 'omnibenevolent', we would probably regard him as an evil and sadistic power freak and have him put in prison for his crimes.

 

[Loren Booda]

Mumeishi,

What you describe is incomplete, half of a duality. If I detest poverty enough, e. g., I will be driven to eradicate it. There are at least as many examples of good as there are of evil.

Is it possible that all of us at some time doubt God and consider Satan? Might Satan represent denying our Godliness to our neighbors?

Even restricted to physics, our world can seem an infinitesimal portion of the cosmos. Most of us here endure a fraction of our lives in suffering in an uncertain universe to eventually define for ourselves and benefit others.

I agree that many consider their punishment unjust (take away my money, my American citizenship, my medicines, etc.), but the good majority of the people come back to seeking God and rejecting "Satan."

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
What you describe is incomplete, half of a duality. If I detest poverty enough, e. g., I will be driven to eradicate it. There are at least as many examples of good as there are of evil.

OK, but that's not the point. My point was that Earth is an evil and corrupt place of suffering relative to what heaven is claimed to be like - and of course relative to how God could have made earth. God is responsible (in theory) for all the evil and suffering in the universe as well as the good. The question is - why did God create a situation in which evil, suffering and damnation would flourish?

Originally posted by Loren Booda
Is it possible that all of us at some time doubt God and consider Satan? Might Satan represent denying our Godliness to our neighbors?.

Not many would reject the moral path of God, while believing he exists - to do so would be to knowingly damn oneself. However there are many who doubt God because they (rightly IMO) regard the justification for belief to be insufficient.

Originally posted by Loren Booda
Even restricted to physics, our world can seem an infinitesimal portion of the cosmos. Most of us here endure a fraction of our lives in suffering in an uncertain universe to eventually define for ourselves and benefit others.

I never questioned whether it was 'worth it' for those destined for heaven (if we assume that God and heaven are real). I questioned why God allows evil and suffering and blames and tortures his (relatively) ignorant and weak creations for it.

Originally posted by Loren Booda
I agree that many consider their punishment unjust (take away my money, my American citizenship, my medicines, etc.), but the good majority of the people come back to seeking God and rejecting "Satan."

...the rank and file are usually much more primitive than we imagine. Propaganda must therefore always be essentially simple and repetitious.

The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly...it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it people will eventually come to believe it.
-Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister

 

[Loren Booda]

My religion, Unitarian Universalism, believes that all souls go to heaven. How can I judge another's fate when I am uncertain for my own?

 

[redrogue]

Originally posted by Mumeishi
The question is - why did God create a situation in which evil, suffering and damnation would flourish?

Here's another way of looking at it. It's off the deep end, but here goes...

Suppose God created evil (in the form of Satan, let's say), the opposite of himself, to give us a choice. If there were only good in the world, we couldn't exercise our free will. For this to happen there would need to be an opposing force, so He created evil. But I believe mankind as a whole allows the suffering because we continue to make the *wrong* choice, resulting in negative consequences to our actions.

Free will, remember?

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
My religion, Unitarian Universalism, believes that all souls go to heaven. How can I judge another's fate when I am uncertain for my own?

Non-sequitur. You should be *certain* of your own. Don't know what judging another's fate means exactly. You'e not answered any questions. And I'm discussing more general Christian ideas - the idea that all souls go to heaven raises different questions.

 

[Mumeishi]

Originally posted by redrogue
Here's another way of looking at it. It's off the deep end, but here goes...

Suppose God created evil (in the form of Satan, let's say), the opposite of himself, to give us a choice. If there were only good in the world, we couldn't exercise our free will. For this to happen there would need to be an opposing force, so He created evil. But I believe mankind as a whole allows the suffering because we continue to make the *wrong* choice, resulting in negative consequences to our actions.

Free will, remember?

Why would he want to give us freewill? Particularly since he created our relatively bad, weak, ignorant nature. That's just irresponsible. The result is predictable - there is nothing free about it.

Also, its not a fair game since the rules are unclear - regions without Christianity are damned (how do people who were not exposed to Christianity have a 'choice?'), as are people who (rightly) don't have a belief in god because belief (and thus even faith) is unjustified - those people cannot force themselves to believe in something they simply don't and which they don't realize they ought to have faith in.

And the 'choice' of Christianity is just one among dozens of (presumably false) religious belief systems. He has made a good job of disguising Christianity as another superstitious cult worshipping nonexistent spirits. Why would he go and do a thing like that? Why do you have faith in this tribal Hebrew god Yahweh and not in Vishnu, Odin or Ra? Why do you reject them and 'turn away' from them?

I find it hard to believe that people find this credible. Do you *really* think this makes sense? Even if there was an all-powerful, benevolent superbeing who made the universe - is this *really* what he would do? - a being who knew how to create perfect creatures like angels and a perfect place like heaven - he would create imperfect creatures and surround them with temptations and various arbitrary obstacles in the way of blind faith and allow them to suffer and inflict great harm on one another, then vastly reward those who unquestioningly accepted the Christian belief system and tortured those whith inquiring minds who asked questions and asked to be shown along with those who were never exposed to Christianity.

Do you really believe that. It just looks like a self-propagating belief system to me.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
I agree that many consider their punishment unjust (take away my money, my American citizenship, my medicines, etc.), but the good majority of the people come back to seeking God and rejecting "Satan."

would that be a proof of existence of God? because the good majority of the people come back to seeking God then he must exist...

 

[mikelus]

when you look at a lot of the religions of the world, there are many who have a god that they believe in. Some with acual names who they believe had acually been god. Then there's been people who have lived here on Earth and have had god to pass through them. Theres differences between all religions in how we view our god. But god is the ultimate reason why we go to our place of worship. God to me equals that sense of union with ones self or spirit.

 

[Loren Booda]

Guybrush Threepwood

would that be a proof of existence of God? because the good majority of the people come back to seeking God then he must exist...

A proof - for the good majority of the people.

 

[Loren Booda]

mikelus

God to me equals that sense of union with ones self or spirit.

Unique and beautiful

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
A proof - for the good majority of the people.

A good majority of the people believed the Earth was flat.
Did that make the Earth flat?
The argument by multitude does not prove anything...[zz)]

 

[Mumeishi]

No, I think you're out-voted on that one.

 

[ThOrNe]

why are sooo many ppl opposed to satan? from what I've read it's because of him that human souls get to go to heaven in the first place. But then again i don't rly think either god or satan exist but if they do, I'm left sided all the way.

 

[selfAdjoint]

I don't know if historians agree with this, but I wonder if the long Persian influence on Judah after Darius let the Jews go back to Jerusalem and established it as a province of Persia, didn't infect Judaism with a taint of duality, leading to a Satan who was always
explained as not equal to God but who was always treated as if he were.

 

[Mumeishi]

I've read that there are no references in the early OT to Satan as an independent agency from God - he was originally an agent of God. This may help to explain why there are two contradictory accounts in one story (the story of Job I think - I'll have to check) where God commits some horrible act on mankind in one account, while it is Satan in another. The contradiction is resolved if you realize that Satan's actions are commanded by God.

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by mikelus
when you look at a lot of the religions of the world, there are many who have a god that they believe in. Some with acual names who they believe had acually been god. Then there's been people who have lived here on Earth and have had god to pass through them. Theres differences between all religions in how we view our god. But god is the ultimate reason why we go to our place of worship. God to me equals that sense of union with ones self or spirit.

In virtually all definitions of (a) god, usually the aspect of being conscious and self-aware are (at least implicitly) a part.

If what you mean by god doesn't fall into the above definition, then disregard the response that follows.

While post is accurate for many religions, all religions are not theistic. Both Buddhism and Taoism are non-theistic religions.

 

[seeker03]

one quick point: evil does not exist. There is only good, and lack of it. its like saying how do we know that the sun isn't cold and instead, pluto was hot? cold doesn't exist. its just a lack of heat, otherwise we could say it is 500 degrees cold, which is impossible because of absolue 0.
my reply to the main topic is: It might be because for humans, it takes someone as evil as satan to realize that we ourselves have a bit of him inside of us. once we see what the end of our dark path is, then we can repent and return to the light.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Originally posted by seeker03
once we see what the end of our dark path is, then we can repent and return to the light.

the dark path has no end Luke...

 

[olde drunk]

what if there was no good or bad? that the world just 'is'.

did we construct a devil as a better means of understanding a god?

what if god is the universe? would we need a devil?

so, if we change our understanding of god will we remove the basis for having a devil?

personally, i think it is time for us to grow up and go beyond the myths of the ancients. all the old texts are guides for living. they can not be faultless. after all they were transcribed and translated by humans.

it is time to redefine our spiritual foundation without a 'god and/or devil'.

ah hell, there would be an economic slow down as all churches were removed from the money flow BUT we would bounce back.

 

[Mumeishi]

I'll drunk to that.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Count me in...

 

[einsteinian77]

Then maybe the devil is just God's doubt

 

[iron~orchid]

The problem with the GOD theory, is that evolutionary religion makes no provision for change or revision; unlike science, it does not provide for its own progressive correction.

However, religion as it has evolved does command respect because its followers believe it is THE TRUTH. Religion has handicapped social development in many ways, but without religion there would have been no enduring morality or ethics, no worth-while civilization.

Religion enmothered much nonreligious culture:

Sculpture originated in idol making, architecture in temple building, poetry in incantations, music in worship chants, drama in the acting for spirit guidance, and dancing in the seasonal worship festivals.

Religion and this belief in God has, however, hampered industrial activities and economic development; it has been wasteful of labor and has squandered capital; it has not always been helpful to the family; it has not adequately fostered peace and good will; it has sometimes neglected education and retarded science; it has unduly impoverished life for the pretended enrichment of death.

Evolutionary religion has been man's most expensive but incomparably effective institution without justification -- the justification being that there is, in fact, this GOD it is built around.

 

[Alpha 2-6]

Why is there evil?
This is the qurstion that has plauged the clergy ever since religion has been around, everyone has a theory, yet according to the Bible, the true word of God, this is the situation

God cannot destroy Satan, because God loves Satan. Let me explain.

Because Satan at once plead allegiance to God, when he was a living human, God gave him the promise of everlasting love, the devil then became a child of God. Most parents would never stop loving their children no matter what. I am sure if you would have told Hitlers' parents of what their newborn child would become, they would still love him, even though they might try and lead him away from Nietchze.

Because of this love God cannot destroy Satan, yet people can. uring the 1000 years of Satan's imprisonment, population will soar. Everyone will be in the New Jerusalem, where there is no sickness, murder or other crime, and there will be no death. Religious scholars project that the population would reach 70 billion during that time, the amount of people who have ever lived on Earth currently. Once the millenium is overSatan will be realesed along with his minions, and then they will have to face the some 70 bil. strong army of God in the ultimate battle. Satan will not stand a chance because he cannot kill the angels of God. the angels will kill him and evil will be destroyed.

 

[olde drunk]

WE ALL HAVE RELIGION

folks, there is nothing wrong with religion. in fact, atheism is a religion. we all need to have a religion as an anchor for our beliefs.

the biggest handicap to progress is 'organized religion'. any organization that promotes its idea as being 'the truth', immediately limits its membership's ability to clearly view the world and thought.

all of the basic books (talmud, bible, koran, etc etc) have somthing to offer. it is the organization that perpetuates ignorance and limits the value of the prophets or wisemen.

most wisemen talk about what I, the individual, can do to attain 'X'. we do not have much mention of a devil, except in a metamophic sense. temptation to do something we believe is wrong, and yet enjoyable, 'is the work of the devil'. ah, once we dare to go beyond the lines, are we in league with the devil? more importantly, what if we make a discovery that is ground breaking (for us individualy or society) did we 'sin'??

so, there ain't no good and bad; right or wrong. we are, we do, experience and learn. some of the 'wrong' decisions may delay a goal BUT they aren't 'bad'. even mistakes are necessary to evolve.

let's play! let's enjoy and see what we can do to improve the world without a satan or even a tired definition of god.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

I am going to omit Bible passages for now as this would be too long to read; but if there are specific questions about my post I will support with references.

God created Satan as an angel with free will, similarly with how people were created with free will. Evil entered the world because we used our free will to reject God's leadership. But because God loved us he still wanted to relate to us and provide a means for us to get back to Him. This method was through the death and resurrection of Jesus as payment for our transgressions against God. Because God loves us so much, but Satan is so opposed to God and his goodness, Satan has made it a point to devote his life to stealing away people from knowing God.

I reject the idea that there is only good, and so does the Bible. If everything is good, then murder is good, death is good, rape is good, etc. etc. This includes when these things happen to you. If everything is good then all actions by people are acceptable. I don't think this idea fits well with the way the world works, how we feel about things, or our inherent ideas about good and bad.

Now if God was really good, you might ask, why would he let evil exist? The answer is that for evil to not exist, God would have had to take away our free will. We wouldn't be left with the option to choose any longer. This is the effective death of morals, because morals are based on choosing from options a right way of acting, but if we had no choice but to love and accept God, it wouldn't really be love.

Now why would God not vanquish his enemy Satan immediately after he rebelled? God might do this because greater good could come out of letting him exist for a while than for snuffing him out immediately. God has chosen to use the fallen nature of the world, and Satan's work their to bring the best circumstances into each persons life so that they might choose to accept His love.

This is why God permitted Satan to torment Job (a righteous man) by murdering his family, slaves, livestock, taking away his friends and giving him boils on his skin. Through this experience Job realized that his righteous actions didn't mean that he deserved a reward - we are all flawed compared to God's standard and deserve death. He was then thankful to be alive, and to have the relationship with God that he did. God blessed him with a ne bigger family, riches, livestock, etc. after Job realized how good God really was.


---------
On religion

God isn't about religion (ceremonies, rituals, etc.) but He is about relationships with people. He wants to know each one of us in a deep personal way, instead of by formula or ritual, etc. Imagine that every time you saw a coworker or classmate throughout the day you said "Gee Bob, nice to see you again, its beautiful outside, talk to you later." You might see Bob 5 times a day and you would recite this to him each time. This is no basis for relating to someone.

People desire to relate to God through religious observances because it is easier to exclude God from our lives, except for doing a little dance or sitting in a pew every day or week or twice a year, etc. People doing these things feel good, while the don't really include or care about God at all.

-------
On Truth

The Bible claims to be the revealed word of God. Because its coming from God, it is the truth...there is no need for it evolve because it is already coming from the perfect creator God of the universe.

It is true that it was recorded by humans, but the Bible says that God's spirit (part of Himself) was living inside them and telling them what to write. I wouldn't take this as singular proof however. The Jews had a practice when copying the words of the prophets (Torah, OT, whatever you would like to call it) where they would copy the whole book down and then count from both the front and the back of the text for the middle letter. If this was off by even one character, they would burn the whole manuscript and start over, so that there was no chance of a mistake. This accuracy was also confirmed with the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Before discovery, the oldest OT manuscripts were from 980 A.D. These came from a different source and from 250 B.C. Once they were translated it was found that the two copies were 95% identical, and that the other 5% was in variation in spelling and some obvious slips of the pen.

The manuscripts from the NT come from within 30 years of the events they describe, close enough that if they were wrong, the real individuals who lived during the events could say, "hey, that's not right." Additionally, the modern Bible contains only books confirmed to be written by people who had seen Christ resurrected, the Apostles, those who were commissioned by Jesus to remember what they had seen and tesitfy about it with the power of the Holy Spirit.

There is a change in the covenant God has with people between the Jews and after Christ's death, but this was predicted throughout the prophecy of the OT. Religion wasn't evolving, it was following a plan to provide redemption to people's sin.

 

[olde drunk]

please put the bible aside. think for youself. IF, logically, you were god, what would you gain by having a human race??

after many years of pondering this question, IMHO, that gestalt needed experience. therefore, s/he/it enpowered us with freewill. so, within freewill we can do anything. doing anything isn't good or bad; it just is (s/he/it gains, expands regardless of what we do).

if you get stuck with what others have said or written you will be at the mercy of those ideas. when you seek and develop your own philosophy you will be truly free. even wrong thoughts, ideas and action expand s/he/it. you will glory in the grace of your just being. only problem is, are you willing to accept the responsibility of thinking for yourself?

once you choose this road, you are totally responsible for enjoying the consequences of ALL that you think, say and do. not everyone is willing to venture into such deep waters. only confidence in self will provide the courage.

peace,

 

[olde drunk]

oh yeah, my god inspires what i write. your god inspires what you write. do you write what you believe or what you were told is safe to believe.

you will pass on the word of god when you have explored your inner thoughts and ideas, AND then report your findings.

as i said, even if they(your words) might be a mistake, you and god will gain wisdom and/or experience which leads to an expanded universe.

peace,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

if I am thinking for myself, can't I choose not only to come with my own arguments but also to choose arguments that have already been made? If everything I write or say is limited because it has to be original and different from everything ever said or written before I don't really have the ability to choose or think freely do I?

I don't claim that God is writing through me. It is possible, but I don't know that. I think if you take an honest look at yourself you will see that God is not writing through you either. Are your words really what the creator of the universe would say? Are you so confident in your understanding of God that you have everything figured out about life...and this is why you are saying that your writing is inspired? I think it is far more likely that you have made some stuff up that makes you feel good, but when you honestly look at yourself you see that you are really ignoring the things about life that bother you, especially death...and so you write out these words hoping that when you write them you will see some explanation from them that is comforting for you.

I have already tried accepting the full consequences of what I think, say, and do. And you know what, it sucks! If the things that happen to me are truly all the result of my actions, thoughts, words...then I am hopelessly screwed, because even when I seem to be doing things "right" bad circumstances come to and mess me up. Why did these things happen?

God says that he is going to judge everyone in the world during the end times. There are three responses people are going to give Him when he asks, "Why should you get to go to heaven?"

1) "I don't deserve to go, but Jesus has paid for my sins and covered them from your sight." Jesus is going to testify for us on our behalf then and we will go to heaven.

2) "I don't derve to go to heaven, I was wicked."

3) "Well, I was a good person. I tried to help people and didn't murder anyone, etc etc." To which God will retort, "But were you perfect? If you are not perfect, and did not accept the path I had laid out to pay for sins, then you cannot enter into my presence."

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

let me rephrase that question a bit ... "what's in heaven that I should go to?"

 

[olde drunk]

if I am thinking for myself, can't I choose not only to come with my own arguments but also to choose arguments that have already been made? If everything I write or say is limited because it has to be original and different from everything ever said or written before I don't really have the ability to choose or think freely do I?

olde drunk- needless to say, i have read and studied many sources. when i make a statement it is mine. i am the authority. it may be a distillate of bible, mitchner, castenada, cayce et al, but it is my current belief. i do not need to quote anyone because if i am shown a better view, i will change my belief. i can't change what jesus or god said, so i am limited in what i can learn.

I don't claim that God is writing through me. It is possible, but I don't know that. I think if you take an honest look at yourself you will see that God is not writing through you either. Are your words really what the creator of the universe would say? Are you so confident in your understanding of God that you have everything figured out about life...and this is why you are saying that your writing is inspired? I think it is far more likely that you have made some stuff up that makes you feel good, but when you honestly look at yourself you see that you are really ignoring the things about life that bother you, especially death...and so you write out these words hoping that when you write them you will see some explanation from them that is comforting for you.


olde drunk - if god, whatever, wasn't within me i'd be dead. so when i interact with anyone i want to hear what they and their inner god have to say. i love being wrong. it helps me grow. my god encourages me to make mistakes. the biggest gains in my life were the result of my misunderstanding and impetuous acts.


I have already tried accepting the full consequences of what I think, say, and do. And you know what, it sucks! If the things that happen to me are truly all the result of my actions, thoughts, words...then I am hopelessly screwed, because even when I seem to be doing things "right" bad circumstances come to and mess me up. Why did these things happen?


olde drunk - i bet part of what you did was follow someone, something else's ideas of what you should've done. now, accept the fact that you screwed you(because you did) regardless of the dynamics. as i said above, your unconscious self wanted the "bad things" to happen so that you would be motivated to move on to bigger and better things.


God says that he is going to judge everyone in the world during the end times. There are three responses people are going to give Him when he asks, "Why should you get to go to heaven?"

1) "I don't deserve to go, but Jesus has paid for my sins and covered them from your sight." Jesus is going to testify for us on our behalf then and we will go to heaven.

2) "I don't derve to go to heaven, I was wicked."

3) "Well, I was a good person. I tried to help people and didn't murder anyone, etc etc." To which God will retort, "But were you perfect? If you are not perfect, and did not accept the path I had laid out to pay for sins, then you cannot enter into my presence."

Screw god, jesus and the white horses they rode in on! THERE AIN'T NO HEAVEN!

careful now, think. picture 'heaven' take a nice long time to envision all the food, women, etc you can eat. wait, think--------

now, how long before you get bored?

we do not need to be saved. there is no payment for sins or karma. we make a mistake and we trigger a negative life thread that motivates us to seek a solution. in the seeking - we grow and expand! the unknown of the universe is what drives our desires. what is beyond this world? 69 virgins? gimme a break. we don't really know and that's the wonder of it, exploring the unknown reaches of ourselves and the universe.

be back tonight, got to go get son from college for the holiday.

peace,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

First, If you would like me to read your comments, could you please use a non-italicized serif font?

The Bible's picture of heaven (Revelation 20, etc.) is that God is going to remake the world and make a New Jerusalem. Those who have a relationship with God before their death will live there in the presence of God. There is going to be work to do, and people to run the city, etc. The difference is going to be 1) God will be there in direct contact with us. 2) The world won't be filled with result of the fall of man; i.e. pain, hunger, anger, malice, etc. Everyone is going to relating to each other on a deep level the way married people are intended to interact here. It's going to be an exciting life of living with God, building relationships, doing satisfying work, and being genuinely useful.

olde drunk - You are no authority. You are not even an authority on why you work the way you do. You cannot say why you were created ,or how, or why you do the things you do. There is only one authority that knows those answers, God.

God and us are seperate, there is no need for you to be physically dead because you are separate from God. But you are currently and will continue to be spiritually dead without him.

I agree with you about being wrong. I don't love it, the feeling sucks, but it does help you grow a lot more than being right oftentimes. Hoever, the one thing I don't want to be wrong about is in my relationship with God. Because the stakes are too high for being wrong. I only believe what I do because I think it is the truth, and if I found evidence to say something else I would stop being a Christian. I would want to know what is the answer, as well as escape the suffering that Christians experience (if indeed Christianity were false). I would want to reorient my values to seek after as much money, fame, and power as possible because that's what American culture says is the answer right? Not just to go along with the crowd, but those things are "fun" aren't they.

But I think these things are not fulfilling in the end. I don;t think they lead anywhere. I see famous, rich, powerful movie stars that are miserable in marriages, addicted to drugs, in and out of prison, and hopelessly confused about life. I see people putting themselves through pain and torture of broken relationship after relationship in search of sexual satisfaction. The Bible says in Psalm 14:12 "There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death." I think this worldy wisdom is exactly what it is talking about.

I never followed someone for those 20 years. I grew up never having gone to church of any kind. I felt like there was something missing. I searched for it in books of many religions. I did not find it. Later God worked situations in my life to show me that He was there, did love me, had saved me from death, and wanted to relate to me. It was my own choice, based on evidence and experience.

Thanks for talking civilly with me olde drunk. I hope that you have a good weekend with your family.

 

[olde drunk]

sorry about the fonts. doing a quickie here so it maybe compact. OK. I know where you're at. i remember that feeling of grace when you find god. it is special. i won't rain on your parade.
may i suggest that when this too, starts to feel like god let you down 'the why me' type thing, that you renew your exploration or search. god is within all of us, which is why i am my authority and i do not need to be saved.
this is the new jerusalem, i am working with god.to make a better world. after this life i will move on to our next goal. all negatives in my life, I CHOOSE. they were not foisted on me by any god or higher power.

i am not the devil. there is no devil. those ideas are metaphors; most bible stories are.

peace,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

The stories in the Bible don't claim to be metaphors, but they do claim to be truth. For example, the Gospels say they are testimony to what "they have seen and heard"

usually when I feel like "God let me down," it is because I have become completely self absorbed in my thoughts, and forgotten what he has already done for me.

I'm glad that you are working for a better world, so am I. I just disagree that you choose the neagtives. You can decided to respond poorly to negatives, but people don't choose their parents dying, cripling diseases, hunger, relationship turmoil, etc.

I know you aren't the devil. But I do know he exists, and I have seen him try to screw things up actively in my life and in others. If there is personal messaging or something on this website (I'm new), or just email I will give you a good example, its just a little too personal to throw out on the internet.

nice chatting

 

[olde drunk]

logically, why would any god "INFLICT" misery on any soul?

sins of our parents?

sins of mankind? why? i didn't do anything!

BUT if i choose to be born under miserable cricumstances--- now it makes sense. I WANT to learn a new lesson from a miserable beginning.

listening to those who have witnessed anything is hearsay. actually it should be called heresey. they pass on their message as the word of god.

i found it easier to accept broader concepts when i saw 'god' as an energy source and no an idealized 'father' figure.

being all loving and just s/he/it would not impose suffering on an innocent soul.

that would be grossly unfair.

peace,