How were megaliths moved?

  • Thread starter aquitaine
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In summary, there is evidence that megaliths were moved using runners, lots of people, and some means of persuasion. The coefficient of friction for wet wood-wood was only 0.2, allowing each person to drag 250kg. With fish used as grease, it was possible for 20 people to drag a viking long ship across country. However, there is still some speculation and theories about how these massive stones were moved, with some suggesting the use of wooden log rollers or canoe ladders. There is also speculation that some stones were poured as we do today with concrete. In the case of viking ships, there is evidence of using fish as lubrication for transportation. As for the Baalbeck monument,
  • #1
aquitaine
30
9
In particular the Temple of Jupiter in Baalbeck, here is a pic of one of the largest stones:


http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/n/y/2/BaalbekQuarryMegalith.jpg [Broken]



How did they move it? I ask this because someone else brought this up as "proof" that in ancient times we have "hi tech" (ie, UFO nonsense), unfortunately I don't know enough about this to debunk that crackpottery (and I myself am curious what actual techniques were used to move something like this). Anyone want to have a go at debunking this (and letting us know how it was actually done)?
 
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  • #2
It's hard to fathom. In northern climes, it would be possible to move large monoliths on flattened paths that were iced over.
 
  • #3
Yeah, but this one was in Lebanon.
 
  • #4
Runners, lots of people, some means of persuasion.

Coefficient of friction for wet wood-wood is only 0.2 so each person can drag 250kg, 100 people = 25Tons.
With fish to grease the runners 20 people can drag a viking long ship across country easily (well not easily but it's possible)
 
  • #5
How were megaliths moved? Obelix.
 
  • #6
mgb_phys said:
Runners, lots of people, some means of persuasion.

Coefficient of friction for wet wood-wood is only 0.2 so each person can drag 250kg, 100 people = 25Tons.
With fish to grease the runners 20 people can drag a viking long ship across country easily (well not easily but it's possible)

Hm, never thought of that. Thanks.
 
  • #7
Is there any evidence that this is how it was done, or is this all just speculation? [fish as grease would make for a short trip, I would think].

That largest stone is estimated to weight about 1000 tons.
http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_5b1.htm

In some cases, such as with some pyramids, there has been speculation that the stones were poured as we do today with concrete.
 
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  • #8
No one knows for sure. Several theories have been proposed. The scholar Jo Anne Van Tilburg suggested that the moai in Easter Island were moved using the so-calles canoe ladders, used in the Pacifiv islands to move heavy wooden logs.
The ladders consist of a pair of parallel wooden rails, joined by fixed wooden cross pieces, over which the log is dragged.
Jo Anne tested her theory enlisting modern Easter Islanders to build such a ladder, mounting a statue prone on a wooden sled, attaching ropes to the sled and hauling it over the ladder.
She found that 50 to 70 people, working five hours per day and dragging the sled five yards at each pull, could transport a 12-ton statue nine miles in a week.
Extrapolating, we can think of hundreds of people hauling heavier monoliths.
As was mentioned by mgb_phys, lubrication could ease the task.
 
  • #9
Ivan Seeking said:
Is there any evidence that this is how it was done, or is this all just speculation? [fish as grease would make for a short trip, I would think].
In the case of viking ships there is evidence, the stinking rotten fish guts left an impression on the poets of the sagas!
For ancient stone monuments there is less evidence. Wet wooden runners on either a wooden roadway or wet clay is pretty good, and you wouldn't have to be a genius to discover that. Wooden log rollers are surprisingly bad - you need very stiff material for rollers to work.

In some cases, such as with some pyramids, there has been speculation that the stones were poured as we do today with concrete.
I think that was dismissed as crack-pottery. It was based on 'air bubbles' in the limestone which are erosion features common in natural rock.
In the case of carved monoliths and stylea (not sure of the plural!) there are lots of partially finished ones in quarries all over Egypt. They had the hieroglyphs carved on them while still attached to the rock and at ground level but then broke while being cut from the quarry.
 
  • #10
mgb_phys said:
In the case of viking ships there is evidence, the stinking rotten fish guts left an impression on the poets of the sagas!

Are you telling me that there is a Viking Ode to Stinking Fish? :biggrin:
 
  • #11
Ivan Seeking said:
Are you telling me that there is a Viking Ode to Stinking Fish? :biggrin:
I think it's more of a whinge.
 
  • #12
mgb_phys said:
I think it's more of a whinge.

From wince it came.
 
  • #13
I think if you have slavery for horsepower and some intuitive physics for efficiency, you can move just about anything anywhere.
 
  • #14
Nor should we discount the powers of Merlin. He made stones from Cornwall fly through the air and assemble into a famous henge.
 
  • #15
arildno said:
Nor should we discount the powers of Merlin. He made stones from Cornwall fly through the air and assemble into a famous henge.

We're going to need a source for that. :tongue:
 
  • #16
the stone in the picture is called the pregnant woman because.. well i think you can figure it out. This is the largest stone amongst the baalbek monument and i believe it is some miles away from the actually monument locating it at the quarry of baalbek. It is believed that this stone was just over the limit of what men could move back then that's why it still remains in the quarry not fully hewn.
 
  • #17
For those of you who watch Stargate, it reminds me a little of the Asgard. So advanced that they've lost the ability to think 'primitive'. People back then have obviously moved the blocks, there's no doubt about that and yet we can't explain how they did it. Can it not be done today?
 
  • #18
Denton said:
For those of you who watch Stargate, it reminds me a little of the Asgard. So advanced that they've lost the ability to think 'primitive'. People back then have obviously moved the blocks, there's no doubt about that and yet we can't explain how they did it. Can it not be done today?

Since nobody was there, we can only speculate as how it was done. And yes, we can do it now with technology available to those people. See my previous post for an example.
 
  • #19
This guy moves large stones by himself, maybe they did what he did but at a larger scale?

 
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  • #20
I keep trying to figure out how it could be done. I keep thinking it would be easiest by cutting the stone into the shape of a cylinder and use levers to roll it. If you had grooves in the form of a square every couple feet, that you could fasten levers to so that you have a bunch of levers at once. Then you could have some elephants pulling on the levers, and reposition the levers every 1/4 turn or so. It seams though that if they did roll the stones using levers, there would be some evidence of it.
 
  • #21
RunSwimSurf said:
This guy moves large stones by himself, maybe they did what he did but at a larger scale?



ha! brilliant! Wallyhenge! :biggrin:
 
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  • #22
  • #23
The stone in the picture weighed 1200 tons. Currently it is much less, as large peices have been quaried off of it.

If you levered it around on a pivot it would break. Even with only 2 men per ton that's 2400 slaves your going to need, add up the weight of all the rope and your getting into some pretty complex problems.

Many of the myths around the moving of large megaliths involve "music" or "maya" or some kind of energy. What if the stone was vibrating somehow? If the vibrations were intense and in the verticle, the megalith would have greatly reduced friction. Just like a vibrating cell phone on your nightstand.

Not sure where the energy would come from though?
 
  • #24
MrHayman said:
Many of the myths around the moving of large megaliths involve "music" or "maya" or some kind of energy. What if the stone was vibrating somehow? If the vibrations were intense and in the verticle, the megalith would have greatly reduced friction. Just like a vibrating cell phone on your nightstand.

I expect that if the vibrations were strong enough to reduce friction noticeably, they would be strong enough to shear the rock apart. Physics gurus?
 
  • #25
Are there not numerous cases of abadoned fractured megaliths along the known routes of transport and in the quarries for these stones? I would hazard that the quality and type of stone used would play a significant role if this technique was applied.
 
  • #26
MrHayman said:
Many of the myths around the moving of large megaliths involve "music" or "maya" or some kind of energy.
Never heard of it. Can you post links to some of these ancient myths from a valid historical source?
 
  • #27
MrHayman said:
Are there not numerous cases of abadoned fractured megaliths along the known routes of transport and in the quarries for these stones? I would hazard that the quality and type of stone used would play a significant role if this technique was applied.

I think this is the most important thing to keep in mind. Some of the stones WERE too big to be moved (mainly due to structural integrity issues), and that's why they are still in the quarry.
 
  • #28
I really don't like the direction this is going.

I do know that there are ancient myths about moving stones with sound or music. For example, it is said that the walls of Jericho succumb to the sound of a trumpet and a war cry.

Since the notion of moving stones with sound could be formally evaluated, this is not a discussion that we want to have without a relevant, formal paper, to reference. Suffice it to say that at best, the intensity of the sound required would seem to be prohibitive.

It is not appropriate to introduce pseudoscientific concepts like "magical energy".
 
  • #29
Your asking me for valid historical sources of a myth?? Its just a myth. Specifically it was the native Easter Islander's who had this story about the "Maya"
Magical energy would only be magic, if you didn't really understand the source of the energy.

I do not really understand how a formal paper could ever get written about such a concept, when the subject will not even be discussed because no formal paper has yet been written about it.

Seems to explain to me why we still do not really know how they did it.
 
  • #30
MrHayman said:
Your asking me for valid historical sources of a myth?? Its just a myth.

We still need sources for context. Otherwise anyone could claim whatever they wanted.

Specifically it was the native Easter Islander's who had this story about the "Maya"
Magical energy would only be magic, if you didn't really understand the source of the energy.

We still need a source. Your point about interpretations of myths is valid.

I do not really understand how a formal paper could ever get written about such a concept, when the subject will not even be discussed because no formal paper has yet been written about it.

Well, certainly not in regards to the original claim, but perhaps there is existing work in other areas that could be applied here, if one wanted to get serious, which I think is a waste of time.

Seems to explain to me why we still do not really know how they did it.

If you can posit a reasonable hypothesis for how this might be done, we have the Independent research forum.
https://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=146
However, talk is cheap. This would require rigorous calculations, or proof of concept.
 
  • #31
MrHayman said:
Your asking me for valid historical sources of a myth?? Its just a myth. Specifically it was the native Easter Islander's who had this story about the "Maya"
Odd, nothing is actually known of how the Easter Islanders moved the stones. Please post that link for me. Thanks.
 
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  • #32
Ivan Seeking said:
However, talk is cheap. This would require rigorous calculations, or proof of concept.

I'd sooner expect to see a back-of-the-envelope calculation showing that it couldn't be done for sufficiently large monoliths, where "sufficiently large" is small to rule out most monoliths of interest.
 
  • #33
I just made a suggestion. Vibrating the stones would reduce friction, like a cellphone vibrating on a table. It just seems like a rather simple way to assist in moving large heavy objects. Is the suggestion of something, as of yet untested, that hard to swallow. It is a wonder how any new idea ever comes to light in such a system.

I bet Galileo heard, " Its a waste of time " more than once on his way to the top of the leaning tower.

I understand how there is much cracked pottery around, but I feel like I am up against someone acting as judge, jury and executioner. That isn't the kind of scientist I am.
I agree that talk is cheap. However, just because I made the suggestion I should not be delegated the sole responsibility of proving the suggestion. Your the physicists, you do the math.
 
  • #34
MrHayman said:
Vibrating the stones would reduce friction
Not really in this case. Vibrating the surface reduces static friction, it prevents the surface forming bonds, but that's more applicable in very smooth surfaces of the same material in close contact.
Your cell phone doesn't move because of the reduced friction - it's just the energy of the vibration motor.

Sorry about the reaction but 'vibrations' used in a non-technical way normally signals that words like 'crystals' and 'energies' are following - especially when things like moving stones are concerned.

Generally moving the stones isn't really much of a mystery, a lot of the sizes/masses are over estimated/exaggerated in popular accounts. The difficulty also assumes modern levels of control and safety margins. People today are also so used to wheels that they don't have a feel for how easy it is to drag a heavy mass on a lubricated smooth surface.
The techniques for positioning the slabs in their final place in a structure were undoubtably clever but persuading a lot of people to drag a rock for a few weeks weren't
 
  • #35
My Napkin so far.

Grossly underestimated dimensions of monolith based on human figures in photos.
20m x 4m x 4m =
Found this online:
My 1967 edition of Baumeister and Marks "Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers" lists average density (Lb per cu ft) values ranging from 82 for Sandstone to 107 for Greenstone, Hornblend. Other values given are 95 for Limestone, Marble, Quartz and 96 for Basalt, Granite, Gneiss.
And this:
82 pound/cubic foot = 1.313 513 991 1 tonne/cubic meter = 420 metric tonnes or 462 tons
95 pound/cubic foot = 1.521 754 014 1 tonne/cubic meter = 487 metric tonnes or 536 tons

So a rough estimate of the minimum weight of the rock is 462 tons. Heavier than two locomotives.

in rock, sound can travel anywhere from 4800 to 9200 m/s, so a rough estimate gives
So in the horizontal the travel distance for a wave in the rock would be 4m, @ 4800m/s gives a fundamental 1200 Hz standing wave frequency up to 2300 Hz for 9200m/s

As to how much energy you could put in, where it would come from, wether it would decrease static and kinetic coeficient of friction and wether it would destroy the rock, I do not know how to estimate that.
 
<h2>1. How were megaliths moved?</h2><p>Megaliths were moved through various methods, such as rolling, dragging, and levering. In some cases, ramps were also used to transport the megaliths to their desired location.</p><h2>2. Were ancient civilizations able to move megaliths without modern technology?</h2><p>Yes, ancient civilizations were able to move megaliths without modern technology. They used simple machines and techniques, such as ropes, logs, and manpower, to transport these large stones.</p><h2>3. How were megaliths lifted and placed into position?</h2><p>Megaliths were lifted and placed into position using a combination of techniques. One method involved creating a platform underneath the megalith and then digging away the soil beneath it. Another method involved using ropes and pulleys to hoist the megalith into place.</p><h2>4. What tools were used to move megaliths?</h2><p>The tools used to move megaliths varied depending on the civilization and time period. Some common tools included wooden rollers, levers, pulleys, and ropes. In certain cases, animals such as oxen were also used to pull the megaliths.</p><h2>5. How long did it take to move a megalith?</h2><p>The time it took to move a megalith varied greatly depending on the size and weight of the stone, as well as the terrain and distance it needed to be transported. Some smaller megaliths may have taken only a few days to move, while larger ones could take weeks or even months.</p>

1. How were megaliths moved?

Megaliths were moved through various methods, such as rolling, dragging, and levering. In some cases, ramps were also used to transport the megaliths to their desired location.

2. Were ancient civilizations able to move megaliths without modern technology?

Yes, ancient civilizations were able to move megaliths without modern technology. They used simple machines and techniques, such as ropes, logs, and manpower, to transport these large stones.

3. How were megaliths lifted and placed into position?

Megaliths were lifted and placed into position using a combination of techniques. One method involved creating a platform underneath the megalith and then digging away the soil beneath it. Another method involved using ropes and pulleys to hoist the megalith into place.

4. What tools were used to move megaliths?

The tools used to move megaliths varied depending on the civilization and time period. Some common tools included wooden rollers, levers, pulleys, and ropes. In certain cases, animals such as oxen were also used to pull the megaliths.

5. How long did it take to move a megalith?

The time it took to move a megalith varied greatly depending on the size and weight of the stone, as well as the terrain and distance it needed to be transported. Some smaller megaliths may have taken only a few days to move, while larger ones could take weeks or even months.

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