How do you solve this integral using the classic mistake method?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around solving the integral \( I_n = \int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^n} \) for natural numbers \( n \) (excluding 0 and 1). Participants explore various methods, particularly focusing on proof by induction and integration by parts, while attempting to derive a recursive relationship for the integral.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a proposed formula for \( I_n \) and asks for proof.
  • Another suggests using proof by induction and integration by parts as a method for the proof.
  • Several participants express confusion about how to apply integration by parts, particularly in choosing \( u \) and \( dv \).
  • A participant rewrites the integral in TeX and emphasizes the need to manipulate the expression for \( I_{n-1} \) to achieve the desired form.
  • There is a suggestion to treat \( n \) as a variable that can be replaced with \( m \) to simplify the reasoning.
  • One participant asserts that the integral can be recursively solved by repeatedly applying the derived formula, indicating that the same structure appears for decreasing values of \( n \).
  • Another participant expresses frustration at perceived misunderstandings and emphasizes the importance of logical reasoning over blind adherence to instructions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to solve the integral, with some advocating for proof by induction while others express uncertainty about the integration by parts method. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the most effective technique to prove the proposed formula.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the challenge of integrating expressions with increasing powers in the denominator and the potential for confusion when applying integration techniques. There is also a focus on the recursive nature of the integral as \( n \) decreases.

Alexx1
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In = Integral(1/((1+x2)n)dx

For all n ∈ Natural numbers (exclusively 0), n≠1: In = 1/(2(n-1)) * x/((1+x2)n-1) + (2n-3)/(2(n-1))*In-1

Can someone prove this?
 
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Use proof by induction on n, using integration by parts for the induction step.
 
HallsofIvy said:
Use proof by induction on n, using integration by parts for the induction step.

I've tried it with that methode..
But what do you choose as u and dv?

I've tried it with: u=(1/((1+x2)n) ==> du= (-2nx)/((1+x2)n+1) and dv= 1 ==> v=x

==> x/(1+x2)n + 2n Integral(x^2/((1+x^2)^(n+1)))

How do you integrate: (x^2/((1+x^2)^(n+1)) ?
 
Let me rewrite your problem in TeX. Prove for all n \in \mathbb{N} and n \geq 2 that

<br /> \int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^n} \;=\; \frac{1}{2(n-1)}\cdot\frac{x}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}<br /> \;\;-\;\; \frac{2n-3}{2(n-1)}\int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}<br />

You've noticed that using integration by parts on In gives you an integral with a power of n+1 in the denominator, which you can't simplify. Instead, try expanding In-1 and working with that expression.
 
Tedjn said:
Let me rewrite your problem in TeX. Prove for all n \in \mathbb{N} and n \geq 2 that

<br /> \int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^n} \;=\; \frac{1}{2(n-1)}\cdot\frac{x}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}<br /> \;\;-\;\; \frac{2n-3}{2(n-1)}\int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}<br />

You've noticed that using integration by parts on In gives you an integral with a power of n+1 in the denominator, which you can't simplify. Instead, try expanding In-1 and working with that expression.

I don't know how to do that.. can you explain it to me?
 
What does integration by parts on In-1 give you? The idea is that you might be able to manipulate it in some way to achieve the desired form, because all the terms turn out to be of the right form.
 
Tedjn said:
What does integration by parts on In-1 give you? The idea is that you might be able to manipulate it in some way to achieve the desired form, because all the terms turn out to be of the right form.

I absolutely have no idea how to integrate it by parts on In-1..
 
Alexx1 said:
I absolutely have no idea how to integrate it by parts on In-1..

Think what the expression means! You have n-1 instead of n, so what? n is any number you want anyway. Call it m if that makes it easier.
 
Jame said:
Think what the expression means! You have n-1 instead of n, so what? n is any number you want anyway. Call it m if that makes it easier.

Is it like: xn-1 = xn*x-1 ?
 
  • #10
Alexx1 said:
Is it like: xn-1 = xn*x-1 ?
I know for sure that you are not as stupid as you're making yourself look right now, it's actually a classic mistake: to think the math is over your head and give up the logic and instead blindly follow what people tell you. Enough rant, sorry.

You have already been given the solution. Look
<br /> \int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^n} \;=\; \frac{1}{2(n-1)}\cdot\frac{x}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}<br /> \;\;-\;\; \frac{2n-3}{2(n-1)}\int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}<br />

Put a big and fat parenthesis around \int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}, or even write it separately. This is the exact same problem! Solve it again and you get an integral with n-2, again and you get n-3, and so on. Try setting n = 3 and do this two times to see the point.
 
  • #11
Jame said:
I know for sure that you are not as stupid as you're making yourself look right now, it's actually a classic mistake: to think the math is over your head and give up the logic and instead blindly follow what people tell you. Enough rant, sorry.

You have already been given the solution. Look
<br /> \int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^n} \;=\; \frac{1}{2(n-1)}\cdot\frac{x}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}<br /> \;\;-\;\; \frac{2n-3}{2(n-1)}\int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}<br />

Put a big and fat parenthesis around \int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}, or even write it separately. This is the exact same problem! Solve it again and you get an integral with n-2, again and you get n-3, and so on. Try setting n = 3 and do this two times to see the point.

I knew the answer in the beginning! The only thing I have to do is prove it!
Not proving it by filling in a random figure!
I have to solve integral In and the result must be <br /> \int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^n} \;=\; \frac{1}{2(n-1)}\cdot\frac{x}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}<br /> \;\;-\;\; \frac{2n-3}{2(n-1)}\int \frac{dx}{(1+x^2)^{n-1}}<br />
 

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