The First Scientist: Anaximander and his legacy

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Anaximander, a pre-Socratic philosopher from Miletus, is recognized as a pivotal figure in the history of science for proposing that natural phenomena can be explained by laws rather than myths. His theories included the concept of the Earth floating in space and the idea of the "apeiron," an unbounded source from which all things emerge. Anaximander's approach to causality emphasized symmetry and balance, laying groundwork for future scientific thought. The upcoming book "The First Scientist: Anaximander and His Legacy" by Carlo Rovelli aims to highlight Anaximander's contributions and their significance in shaping Western scientific tradition. This work seeks to restore Anaximander's rightful place in the narrative of scientific development.
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A new book in the history of science.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Delving into the first glimpses of physical law. The idea that nature and experience could be explained by (semi-quantitative) laws instead of by myths and gods.
What is the root of scientific explanation? How did the idea of it arise?

The history is developed by focusing on a person, a student of Thales, in the Ionian city of Miletus, and the events surrounding his life circa 610-546 BC.

Humanity took a significant step forward around that time, I think
The book is scheduled to go on sale in May 2011, so just a couple of months.
 
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That sounds intersting, thanks Marcus!
 
Evo, I know very little about Anaximander but I did hear something amusing.

Apparently he knew the Earth was spherical, so then the question everybody asks is "what holds it up?"

This is hearsay, I should check it, but anyway other people thought up explanations like it was held up by a Giant, or by Turtles, or floated on the surface of an infinite ocean.

But apparently Anaximander thought a little more deeply and said: Yes the round Earth is situated in the midst of empty space but it does not fall...because there is no preferred direction for it to fall in!

That is, he used a symmetry argument to show that there is no need for the Earth to be suspended from anything or supported on any base.

Much of contemporary physics is saying that things are the way they are because of symmetries of various sorts. So in that way the reasoning of the physicists is anaximandral.

He didn't have the idea of an (algebraic) equation---but much of physics as we know it involves balance, equilibrium, opposing forces, resolution achieved by the equals sign. He didn't have that, but instead the equation he used the idea of Justice. Different opposing principles resolved by Justice. Just like a Greek.

And so he made up Laws, instead of Turtles and Giants.

Cute old guy. One could get to like Anaximander, I guess.

I have started to wish that I could go to Miletus, that city on the coast of Turkey that was once a city of the Ionians. I imagine looking out from Miletus, onto the Aegean, and I imaging there are islands visible out to sea. I actually don't know whether there really are islands in sight from Miletus.
 
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marcus said:
That is, he used a symmetry argument to show that there is no need for the Earth to be suspended from anything or supported on any base.

Anaximander most likely proposed that the Earth was drum shaped, a squat cylinder, rather than a sphere. The other side being of course the Antipodes. And following the view of his time, the surface of the drum was perhaps a little concave so that the Mediterranean formed a puddle at its centre.

Yet it is true that Anaximander used the principle of indifference to explain why the Earth could just hang at the centre of its world. He also believed many others worlds would exist, generated from the unbounded apeiron.

But it would be a shame for Anaximander to be remembered for just a simple bit of cosmology and his real significance overlooked. He had a theory of causality as a complex process of development - of symmetry-breaking, indeed - that was far more important.

I wonder if Rovelli will have cottoned on to this? Probably not as it sounds as though he wants to assimilate Anaximander to the "modern scientific tradition" - the rival view of causality drawn up by the Greek atomists.
 
apeiron said:
Anaximander most likely proposed that the Earth was drum shaped, a squat cylinder, rather than a sphere. The other side being of course the Antipodes. And following the view of his time, the surface of the drum was perhaps a little concave so that the Mediterranean formed a puddle at its centre.

Yet it is true that Anaximander used the principle of indifference to explain why the Earth could just hang at the centre of its world. He also believed many others worlds would exist, generated from the unbounded apeiron.

But it would be a shame for Anaximander to be remembered for just a simple bit of cosmology and his real significance overlooked. He had a theory of causality as a complex process of development - of symmetry-breaking, indeed - that was far more important.

I wonder if Rovelli will have cottoned on to this? Probably not as it sounds as though he wants to assimilate Anaximander to the "modern scientific tradition" - the rival view of causality drawn up by the Greek atomists.

I'm not sure everything has been translated correctly? My understanding (from time spent in Greece) was that Anaximander described the Earth as cylindrical (as you've described) but an unbounded Apeiron as having sperical properties? All I could find was this (2 Articles):

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...US404US404&tbs=isch:1&ei=hhGSTY2FIYW_gQekzowa

I look forward to the book - good find marcus!
 
WhoWee said:
but an unbounded Apeiron as having sperical properties? All I could find was this (2 Articles):

What are "sperical properties"?

But surely you had no trouble googling apeiron (1.28 million hits)? What are you trying to say here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apeiron_(cosmology )
 
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apeiron said:
What are "sperical properties"?

But surely you had no trouble googling apeiron (1.28 million hits)? What are you trying to say here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apeiron_(cosmology )

I remember the Greeks speaking of "Apeiron" meaning all surrounding and round or all around(?) - again, I lost a lot in the translations (and over 20 years ago).

(that should have been spherical - not sperical)
 
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WhoWee said:
I remember the Greeks speaking of "Apeiron" meaning all surrounding and round or all around(?) - again, I lost a lot in the translations (and over 20 years ago).

(that should have been spherical - not sperical)

This is a little closer to the stories I recall from the Plaka: my bold

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Apeiron_(cosmology)

"The apeiron has generally been understood as a sort of primal chaos. It acts as the substratum supporting opposites such as hot and cold, wet and dry, and directed the movement of things, by which there grew up all of the host of shapes and differences which are found in the world.[21] Out of the vague and limitless body there sprang a central mass — this Earth of ours — cylindrical in shape. A sphere of fire surrounded the air around the Earth and had originally clung to it like the bark round a tree. When it broke, it created the sun, the moon and the stars.[22] The first animals were generated in the water.[23] When they came to Earth they were transmuted by the effect of the sun. The human being sprung from some other animal, which originally was similar to a fish.[24] The blazing orbs, which have drawn off from the cold Earth and water, are the temporary gods of the world clustering around the earth, which to the ancient thinker is the central figure."
 
WhoWee said:
This is a little closer to the stories I recall from the Plaka: my bold

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Apeiron_(cosmology)

Your link does not seem to work unfortunately.

I would say that it is wrong to focus too much on the quaint archaic cosmological thinking, the spheres of fire and fish hatching from mudballs, as it was Anaximander's underlying causal model that was deep and still relevant.

Anaximander told a story about development by dichotomisation. A symmetry breaking of states of potential.

So it was a really deep view of symmetry principles, not just a simple understanding about spherical symmetry for instance.

Of course, this was also pretty much the causal model of the Theogony. So Anaximander did not invent it outright. He just stripped away the gods and dealt in pure abstractions.
 
  • #10
marcus said:
I have started to wish that I could go to Miletus, that city on the coast of Turkey that was once a city of the Ionians. I imagine looking out from Miletus, onto the Aegean, and I imaging there are islands visible out to sea. I actually don't know whether there really are islands in sight from Miletus.

I don’t know what would be visible from Miletus, but this shows Turkey in the background from Posidonio beach, Samos Island, which I think might be near.


2h5mv5e.jpg



2ag4406.jpg



http://www.posidonio.samos-travel.com/

It looks inspirational, as does the book.
 
  • #11
marcus said:
...
I have started to wish that I could go to Miletus, that city on the coast of Turkey that was once a city of the Ionians. I imagine looking out from Miletus, onto the Aegean, and I imaging there are islands visible out to sea. I actually don't know whether there really are islands in sight from Miletus.

Hi fuzzyfelt, apeiron, whowee...
Nice pictures!

It turns out that because of silting (or some reason) the shoreline has changed and Miletus is now INLAND. It is no longer on the coast. Maybe I was the only one who didn't know that.

There still are some Ionian greek ruins there.

The book "The First Scientist" is scheduled to go on sale 25 May, a little over a week now!

Éditions Dunod published the French version in 2009. It won a French prize for non-fiction: the Prix du Livre Haute Maurienne de l’Astronomie.

Here is the publisher's page for the 2009 French edition:
http://www.dunod.com/sciences-techn...ciences-de-la-matiere-et-/anaximandre-de-mile

Here is the book's Amazon.fr page:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/2100529390/?tag=pfamazon01-20

The publisher of the English version (Westholme) doesn't seem to be giving much advanced publicity. Here are the Amazon listings for Usa, Canada, UK:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Some promotional material (provided by Westholme) reflects critical acclaim received by the 2009 French edition of the book:

==quote http://www.westholmepublishing.com/thefirstscientist.html ==

Carlo Rovelli, a leading theoretical physicist, uses the figure of Anaximander as the starting point for an examination of scientific thinking itself: its limits, its strengths, its benefits to humankind, and its controversial relationship with religion. Anaximander, the sixth-century BC Greek philosopher, is often called the first scientist because he was the first to suggest that order in the world was due to natural forces, not supernatural ones. He is the first person known to understand that the Earth floats in space; to believe that the sun, the moon, and the stars rotate around it—seven centuries before Ptolemy; to argue that all animals came from the sea and evolved; and to posit that universal laws control all change in the world. Anaximander taught Pythagoras, who would build on Anaximander’s scientific theories by applying mathematical laws to natural phenomena.

In the award-winning The First Scientist: Anaximander and His Legacy, translated here for the first time in English, Rovelli restores Anaximander to his place in the history of science by carefully reconstructing his theories from what is known to us and examining them in their historical and philosophical contexts. Rovelli demonstrates that Anaximander’s discoveries and theories were decisive influences, putting Western culture on its path toward a scientific revolution. Developing this connection, Rovelli redefines science as a continuous redrawing of our conceptual image of the world. He concludes that scientific thinking—the legacy of Anaximander—is only reliable when it constantly tests the limits of our current knowledge. Praise for the French edition (Éditions Dunod, 2009)...

==endquote==

The publisher also has a kind of sound-bite from Lee Smolin:

"At this point in time, when the prestige of science is at a low and even simple issues like climate change are mired in controversy, Carlo Rovelli gives us a necessary reflection on what science is, and where it comes from. Rovelli is a deeply original thinker, so it is not surprising that he has novel views on the important questions of the nature and origin of science.”—Lee Smolin, founding member and researcher at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics and author of The Trouble with Physics
 
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  • #12
I checked French Amazon today and Anaximander was doing OK. The book ranked 30,383 amongst all books sold. For a book by a non-celeb physicist about a 6th century Ionian...well maybe it deserves better but it's not so bad.

Does the book have a chance in the US market? The publisher Westholme is small and not mainstream. The French publisher was Dunod, which is more central to the industry, and the book won a prestige prize for science popularization. What will happen in Usa?

I decided to transcribe (maybe later translate) one of the French Amazon comments.
The title is "The logic of scientific discovery--made easy."

==quote==
5.0 étoiles sur 5
La logique de la découverte scientifique ... en plus facile
Par Jean-paul Lacharme (Marseille, France), 19 septembre 2009

L'intérêt de ce livre tient d'abord à la personnalité de son auteur: un chercheur en physique, (spécialiste de la gravitation quantique, l'une des matière les moins accessibles pour le citoyen lambda) possédant cependant une bonne connaissance en culture gréco-latine. La chose n'est pas si courante dans ce milieu. Le sujet, Anaximandre de Milet n'est pas très connu car il ne reste plus grand chose de ce qu'il a écrit. C'est toutefois un auteur important car pour la première fois dans l'histoire, un penseur essaye d'expliquer le fonctionnement du monde par des lois immanentes et non par l'intervention des dieux. Ici, Rovelli nous montre simplement comment la connaissance scientifique s'est déployée en occident et pourquoi elle n'a pas connu un même épanouissement dans d'autres grandes civilisations comme celle de la Chine. Ça ne vaut pas Karl Popper ou Max Weber, bien sûr, mais c'est plus accessible, et c'est le point de vue d'un scientifique de base. Un regret : les nombreuses références bibliographiques données en annexe sont souvent non-françaises, ce qui leur ôte beaucoup d'intérêt pour un lecteur strictement francophone.
==endquote==
 
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  • #13
The initial publication date was not met, as often happens, but I've learned that the book is definitely in the works and will soon be out.

My understanding is it will be about 200 pages (some of that TOC, biblio, index) and written for a wide audience. Short and sweet in other words, bringing the humanities viewpoint and scientist viewpoint together with interesting personalities, stories, historical detail, and quotes from ancient writings...

I think it will be the kind of thin book that can sometimes help change our outlook, because asking who was the first scientist can serve as a concrete way of asking "what, really, is science?" and of exploring how those habits of mind and community peculiar to it arise and are sometimes nourished, sometimes repressed.

Links:
US publisher Westholme's page for forthcoming English edition
http://www.westholmepublishing.com/thefirstscientist.html
Amazon pages
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20

French publisher's page for the 2009 edition
http://www.dunod.com/sciences-techn...ciences-de-la-matiere-et-/anaximandre-de-mile
Amazon.fr page
http://www.amazon.com/dp/2100529390/?tag=pfamazon01-20
 
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  • #14
The new publication date is August 11, 2011. I feel fairly sure that they will make this one.
We can tell a fair amount about the book from information already available here:
French publisher's page for the 2009 edition
http://www.dunod.com/sciences-techn...ciences-de-la-matiere-et-/anaximandre-de-mile
about the French edition. Here is the French TOC:

Sommaire Introduction.

1. Le VIe siècle.
Un panorama du monde.
Le savoir du VIe siècle : l’astronomie.
Les dieux.
Milet.

2. Les contributions d’Anaximandre.

3. Les phénomènes atmosphériques.
Le naturalisme cosmologique et biologique.

4. Flotte la Terre.

5. Entités invisibles et lois naturelles.
Y a-t-il dans la nature quelque chose que nous ne voyons pas?
L’idée de loi naturelle : Anaximandre, Pythagore et Platon.

6. Quand la révolte devient vertu.

7. Écriture, démocratie et mélange des cultures.
La Grèce archaïque
L’alphabet grec.
Science et démocratie.
Le mélange des cultures.

8. Qu’est-ce que la science?
Penser Anaximandre après Einstein et Heisenberg.
L’effondrement des illusions du XIXème siècle.
La science ne se réduit pas à des prédictions vérifiables.
Explorer les formes de pensée du monde.
L’évolution de l’image du monde.
Règles du jeu et commensurabilité.
Éloge de l’incertitude.

9. Entre relativisme culturel et pensée de l’absolu.

10. Peut-on comprendre le monde sans les dieux?
Le conflit.

13. La pensée pré-scientifique.
La nature de la pensée mystico-religieuse. Les différentes fonctions du divin.

14. Conclusion : l’héritage d’Anaximandre

Don't put too much weight on this. This is just the TOC of the French version which has been out since 2009. It would be natural for changes, revisions, additions to occur, that appear first in the English edition.
 
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  • #15
marcus said:
I think it will be the kind of thin book that can sometimes help change our outlook, because asking who was the first scientist can serve as a concrete way of asking "what, really, is science?" and of exploring how those habits of mind and community peculiar to it arise and are sometimes nourished, sometimes repressed.

Thanks for pasting the contents page.

I would say that unfortunately a proper understanding of Anaximander's philosophy would indeed be outlook-changing for most, but Rovelli's book looks like it is going to be about something else. He will be celebrating Anaximander for his intellectual method...but ignoring the metaphysical results. :frown:

Hopefully I will be proved wrong, but the pre-publicity suggests otherwise.
 
  • #16
Thank you for the updates Marcus!
 
  • #17
While we wait for Rovelli, this paper by Arran Gare is a useful backgrounder on how Anaximander was the original process philosopher (taking a unified systems view of nature) and then thinking went either towards a simpler substance ontology (standard issue atomism/reductionism) or Platonic dualism.

www.concrescence.org/index.php/ajpt/article/download/85/47
 
  • #18
Apeiron, Whowee, you are both most welcome!
Here is an online intro to Anaximander from Dirk Couprie a guy in the Netherlands who I think does history of science/philosophy and is something of an expert in this area
http://www.iep.utm.edu/anaximan/

apeiron said:
He will be celebrating Anaximander for his intellectual method...but ignoring the metaphysical results. :frown:
...
Apeiron I think you are right---likely more emphasis on innovation of method and the remarkable scientific insights arising therefrom.

But don't you think that raising interest in Ionian Sixth Century BCE will make it more likely that we will see more written about A. including his metaphysics? Also the scientific concepts are they not aspects of the metaphysics? Do they not play a role?
For example in Chapter 5, the French edition discusses the idea of a natural substance which we do not see. A substance X. Which we infer by reason to exist and use to explain phenomena that we do see. Somewhat like quarks, which we believe exist but cannot isolate.
It seems that Thales, the teacher of Anaximander, proposed that the world was made of Water, or that it arose from the principal of Water. Anaximander took the original step of criticising his teacher's doctrine (which was not the custom in those days) and reasoning that Water was unsatisfactory and a fundamental principal/substance. He instead proposed a Substance X. An unknown indefinite something.

I think the Ionian Sixth is an amazing period, like the Italian Renaissance. The more written about it the better, and the more I read about it the more remarkable I find it.

It seems to reveal the beginnings of both critical philosophy on the one hand
and naturalistic science on the other.

You evidently know considerably more about A's thought than I. I like it that he managed to figure out that the sun's heat drives the water cycle, i.e. where rain comes from, and proposed a natural cause for thunder. He argued that all land animals (including humans) developed from sea life, and that the earth floats in emptiness so that the stars can pass beneath it. It does not rest on turtles or elephants, in other words.
=================

Since he was born ca. 610 BCE, Anax could have met Sappho ( b. circa 620 BCE ) she was only a few years older. and the young Pythagoras (b. ca. 570 BCE) could well have come to Miletus to visit with him. These remarkable people lived on nearby islands---close to Anax in space and time.
 
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  • #19
marcus said:
For example in Chapter 5, the French edition discusses the idea of a natural substance which we do not see. A substance X. Which we infer by reason to exist and use to explain phenomena that we do see. Somewhat like quarks, which we believe exist but cannot isolate.

What would be great is if Rovelli twigs that Anaximander had the original background independent model of the universe. :smile:

The apeiron was not really a substance but a pre-substance state. Other philosophers talked about air, water, etc, but Anaximander was doing his best to get away from anything concrete or essential at all. So this "stuff" was not a substance but instead just an unbounded potential, a vagueness.

So just as we are trying to do today with LQG for instance, Anaximander was trying to imagine a cosmos boot-strapping out of simple possibility.

Yes, everyone talks as though Anaximander just had a different kind of substance in mind. But he in fact went beyond the creation of substantial being.
 
  • #20
I really like this post. There is a lot of truth to it. The Undefinedness of the Apeiron "primal principle" is remarkably close in spirit to the Background Independence first realized in a universe model by Einstein in 1915 General Rel. General Relativity has no prior geometry that it is built on.

In GR, the geometry comes into existence in dynamic interaction with matter in motion.
The geometry, represented by a distance relation or "metric" defined at each point of an otherwise formless set of points, is a solution to the equation, not a fixed premise. There is no "background" metric fixed ahead of time.

So there is a formlessness that indeed is reminding us of the apeiron of Anax'er. A geometric backgroundlessness.

This is an intriguing post. I was reluctant to cover it up with my own post, so I just did not say anything for a few days.
apeiron said:
What would be great is if Rovelli twigs that Anaximander had the original background independent model of the universe. :smile:

The apeiron was not really a substance but a pre-substance state. Other philosophers talked about air, water, etc, but Anaximander was doing his best to get away from anything concrete or essential at all. So this "stuff" was not a substance but instead just an unbounded potential, a vagueness.

So just as we are trying to do today with LQG for instance, Anaximander was trying to imagine a cosmos boot-strapping out of simple possibility.

Yes, everyone talks as though Anaximander just had a different kind of substance in mind. But he in fact went beyond the creation of substantial being.

I too wonder what Rovelli would say if he saw this. (Since he writes about both background independent quantum gravity and about Anax'er.)
 
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  • #21
For anyone coming new to the thread here are some links to information.

US publisher Westholme's page for forthcoming English edition
http://www.westholmepublishing.com/thefirstscientist.html
Amazon pages
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20

French publisher's page for the 2009 edition
http://www.dunod.com/sciences-techn...ciences-de-la-matiere-et-/anaximandre-de-mile
Amazon.fr page
http://www.amazon.com/dp/2100529390/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Since the French version has already come out, we can tell a fair amount about the book by translating the French TOC:
ROUGH INTERPRETIVE TRANSLATION
Sommaire Introduction.

1. Le VIe siècle.==The Sixth Century BCE
Un panorama du monde.
Le savoir du VIe siècle : l’astronomie.==Science in the Sixth Century: Astronomy
Les dieux.==The Gods
Milet.==The City of Miletus

2. Les contributions d’Anaximandre. ==Anaximander's Contributions

3. Les phénomènes atmosphériques.==Meteorology (Understanding rain, thunder,..)
Le naturalisme cosmologique et biologique.==Naturalism in Cosmology and Biology

4. Flotte la Terre.==The Earth Floats in Space

5. Entités invisibles et lois naturelles.==Invisible Entities and Natural Laws
Y a-t-il dans la nature quelque chose que nous ne voyons pas?==Can Unseen Stuff Help Explain?
L’idée de loi naturelle : Anaximandre, Pythagore et Platon.==The Idea of Natural Law (Originated with Anax. Pyth. Plato)

6. Quand la révolte devient vertu.==(Rational) Revolt Becomes Respectable

7. Écriture, démocratie et mélange des cultures.==Writing, Democracy, Crossfertilization
La Grèce archaïque
L’alphabet grec.
Science et démocratie.==Science and Democracy (Are Related)
Le mélange des cultures.==Cultural Mixing

8. Qu’est-ce que la science?==What Characterizes Science?
Penser Anaximandre après Einstein et Heisenberg.==Significance of Anax'der's Thought Seen Post-GR and QM, i.e. from Post-Einstein-Heisenberg Perspective (!)
L’effondrement des illusions du XIXème siècle.==Collapse of 19-th Century Illusions(!)
La science ne se réduit pas à des prédictions vérifiables.==Real Science Can Not Be Reduced To Testable Predictions (!)
Explorer les formes de pensée du monde.==Exploring How to Think the World
L’évolution de l’image du monde.==Getting a New Picture of the World
Règles du jeu et commensurabilité.==Rules of Play--Continuity of Understanding
Éloge de l’incertitude.==Best Understanding Recognizes Uncertainty

9. Entre relativisme culturel et pensée de l’absolu. Navigating Between Cultural Relativism and the Absolute-Avoiding Dangerous Foolishness on Either Side.

10. Peut-on comprendre le monde sans les dieux?==Can We Get Along Without Gods?
Le conflit.

13. La pensée pré-scientifique.==Pre-Scientific Thought
La nature de la pensée mystico-religieuse. Les différentes fonctions du divin.

14. Conclusion : l’héritage d’Anaximandre==Anaximander's Legacy to Us

This is just the TOC of the French version which has been out since 2009. It would be natural for changes, revisions, additions to occur, that could appear first in the English edition.
I see the English edition publisher says the book is 256 pages. For a rough guess about material being added one can compare with the French edition, which is listed as 192 pages. Some of the difference could be due to other factors such as typesize.
 
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  • #22
Some of my own thoughts about Anaximander and his legacy

Apeiron has already indicated some of what he thinks is important to know about Anax'der.

I will tell some of my own reflections on him. For me Anax'der's realization that the the Earth floats in space---that space and stars are in all directions and that there is no special "UP" direction---is something I feel close to when I see the half moon in the sky.

The half moon allowed someone who came after Anax to deduce by geometric reasoning that the sun is 18 or 20 times farther than the moon.

Because Anax made a geometric model of the Earth Moon Sun system which embodied a certain ad hoc wrong ratio = 3/2. The Sun was farther than the Moon by a factor of 3/2. So that was wrong but it opened up the question. Could you get a better handle on that ratio?

Only 300 years after Anaximander, someone did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_of_Samos
The article suggests that the figure of 18-20 may have been a lower bound. It's not entirely clear. The main thing is he got a handle on the problem, and improved on Anaximander's value for the ratio of distances, and he used geometry to do it.
Here's another article, with diagrams:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_On_the_Sizes_and_Distances

So when I see the half moon in the sky I think of those guys. Anaximander born 610 BCE Miletus and Aristarchus born 310 BCE on Samos, a nearby island.
 
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  • #23
This is part of the Heritage, the Legacy. I want to share this with whoever could get a kick out of it.

Imagine you can measure the angle between the moon and sun fairly accurately at a time when there is a half moon in the sky.
Say you are looking south and the half moon is near the mid-sky line and the sun is near setting.
Then there is a big triangle with a right angle at the moon (because you see it as a half moon.)

Say you measure the angle between them as 80 degrees. He did it more accurately---this will be very quick and dirty. You can draw a right triangle with the two angles 80 degrees and 10 degrees. 10 degrees is about 1/6 ratidan, so you can estimate that the distance to the sun is some 6 times bigger than the distance to moon.

Not to pretend to be too accurate, if you can determine that the angle seen at Earth is AT LEAST 85 degrees then you can decide that the angle seen at sun is LESS or equal 5 degrees which is less or equal 1/12 radian. So distance to sun is AT LEAST 12 TIMES the moon distance.

So that is already better than Anaximander! He had the ratio something like 3/2!

The thing is Anax opened the question and led the way with a geometric model. So you were going to apply geometry. And he made it fashionable to improve on your teacher because he did that with his teacher Thales. Critical (if respectful) attitude to authority.
And he even put out some low-hanging ready to pick fruit----this 3/2 number. Once there is a number, people like Aristarchus are going to feel challenged to improve on it.

Don't worry about sines and cosines right now. When you get down to angles smaller than 10 degrees the ratio of sides is roughly the same as the ratio of angles.

And Aristarchus did better than 80 degrees, he thought the spread between moon and sun was OVER 85 DEGREES. Actually, we are told, 87 degrees (hard to imagine him measuring so fine as that though.)

Next time I see the half moon I might think of it as "Anaximander moon". Even though the first person to use the half moon to get a handle on the proportions of the universe was someone who came 300 years after.

Anaximander started the ball rolling as regards both geometric models of the universe (with no up, down, or elephants) and applying critical reason to assess and improve on one's antecedents. Once the ball was rolling you could say that one day Aristarchus would have to come along and invent the heliocentric universe and the rest is history. :-D Well that's one way to look at it.
 
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  • #24
EDITED VERSION OF PREVIOUS POST.
(Needed editing but I ran out of time)
This is part of the Heritage, the Legacy. I want to share this with whoever could get a kick out of it.

Imagine you can measure the angle between the moon and sun fairly accurately at a time when there is a half moon in the sky. Say you are facing south and you see the half moon is high to the south and the sun near setting. Then there is a big triangle EMS with a right angle at the moon (because you see it as a half moon.)

Then say you measure the angle between them as 80 degrees. He did it more accurately---this will be quick and dirty. You can draw a right triangle with the right angle at the moon, 80 degrees at earth, 10 degrees at sun. 10 degrees is about 1/6 radian, so you can estimate EM/ES = 1/6

Distance to the sun is some 6 times bigger than the distance to moon.

Not to pretend to be too accurate, if you can determine that the angle seen at Earth is AT LEAST 85 degrees then you can decide that the angle seen at sun is LESS or equal 5 degrees which is less or equal 1/12 radian. So distance to sun is AT LEAST 12 TIMES the moon distance.

So that is already better than Anaximander! He had the ratio be only something like 3/2!

The thing is Anax opened the question and led the way with a geometric model. So you were mentally prepared to apply geometry to the heavens. And he made it fashionable to improve on your teacher because he did that with his teacher Thales. Critical (if respectful) attitude to authority.
And he even put out some low-hanging ready-to-pick fruit----this 3/2 number. Once there is a number, people like Aristarchus are going to feel challenged to improve on it.

Getting down to a little bit more detail (only if you want to), Aristarchus thought that in that triangle the angle seen at the sun was "one thirtieth of a quadrant". He did not use degrees, he measured by fractions of a quadrant (another name for right angle). A thirtieth of a quadrant is one twentieth of a "sextant". A sextant (i.e. 60 degrees) is quite close to the angle that today we call a radian. Using what you know about the sine of small angles, 1/20 = EM/MS and MS is so close to ES that one can put 1/20 = EM/ES. So the sun is 20 times the distance to the moon. In reality it is considerably farther, but this is all just approximate anyway. It's got to be pretty good for 3rd Century BCE!

Next time I see the half moon I might think of it as "Anaximander moon". Even though the first person to use the half moon to get a handle on the proportions of the universe was someone who came 300 years later.

Anaximander started the ball rolling as regards both geometric models of the universe (with no up, down, or elephants) and applying critical reason to assess and improve on one's antecedents. Once the ball was rolling you could say that one day Aristarchus would have to come along and invent the heliocentric universe and the rest is history. :-D Well that's one way to look at it.

Reality is what we keep learning about.

What keeps surprising us no matter how accurately we have modeled it.
 
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  • #25
Thank you, I know I'm going to enjoy reading this thread more thoroughly!

(I'd read Miletus was at the mouth of a river, which it isn't anymore.)
 
  • #26
September release date on the publsher's page:
http://www.westholmepublishing.com/thefirstscientist.html
 
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  • #27
Anaximander got the ball rolling in cosmic models, by conceiving of the Earth as unsupported in space, with the stars, moon, and sun going around at different distances.
His was the ancestor of the Ptolemaic, and eventually Copernican, world models.

but his numbers, his ratios of distances, were wrong. He had the sun only 3/2 farther than the moon.

How could a person back then have determined the ratio better?
This author has imagined a method that someone in classical times could have used:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1107.0836
http://arxiv.org/abs/1107.0836

Aristarchus, born 300 years after Anax, in 310 BCE, had a method involving measuring the angle between the halfmoon and the sun. He got that the sun was at least 12 times farther, if I remember right. His way is not as good as this modern guy's (which in theory Aristarchus might have used if he had thought of it.)

If I had to choose, I like Aristarchus method. I understand it better. However, other people may find the alternative interesting.
 
  • #28
This map shows how the Miletus harbor used to look in classical times.

Samos, where Pythagoras lived, was just a short way out to sea, from the bay and harbor.

A river called MEANDER flowed into the bay near the city. The river had lots of S-curves. We get our word "meander" from it. It means to do like the Meander river did,

The map shows how the river silted in and what was Miletus harbor became dry land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Miletus_Bay_silting_evolution_map-en.svg
 
  • #29
marcus said:
This map shows how the Miletus harbor used to look in classical times.

Samos, where Pythagoras lived, was just a short way out to sea, from the bay and harbor.

A river called MEANDER flowed into the bay near the city. The river had lots of S-curves. We get our word "meander" from it. It means to do like the Meander river did,

The map shows how the river silted in and what was Miletus harbor became dry land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Miletus_Bay_silting_evolution_map-en.svg

Very nice. I hadn't noted the connection between the river's name and the verb - interesting!
 
  • #30
US publisher's page still gives September 2011 as their estimated date the book will appear
http://www.westholmepublishing.com/thefirstscientist.html

The Amazon.com page has the earlier estimates August 2011 (I'm inclined to think the later date more realistic.)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20

The book is already on sale in the UK!
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20

I'll carry along some other links and information for any interested newcomers:
Canadian Amazon page:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20

French publisher's page for the 2009 edition:
http://www.dunod.com/sciences-techn...ciences-de-la-matiere-et-/anaximandre-de-mile

Amazon.fr page:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/2100529390/?tag=pfamazon01-20

French edition TOC with sporadic rough interpretive translation:
Sommaire Introduction.

1. Le VIe siècle.==The Sixth Century BCE
Un panorama du monde.
Le savoir du VIe siècle : l’astronomie.==Science in the Sixth Century: Astronomy
Les dieux.==The Gods
Milet.==The City of Miletus

2. Les contributions d’Anaximandre. ==Anaximander's Contributions

3. Les phénomènes atmosphériques.==Meteorology (Understanding rain, thunder,..)
Le naturalisme cosmologique et biologique.==Naturalism in Cosmology and Biology

4. Flotte la Terre.==The Earth Floats in Space==Earth Adrift in Space (not needing to be anchored to supports)

5. Entités invisibles et lois naturelles.==Invisible Entities and Natural Laws
Y a-t-il dans la nature quelque chose que nous ne voyons pas?==Can Unseen Stuff Help Explain?
L’idée de loi naturelle : Anaximandre, Pythagore et Platon.==The Idea of Natural Law (Originated with Anax. Pyth. Plato)

6. Quand la révolte devient vertu.==(Rational) Revolt Becomes Respectable

7. Écriture, démocratie et mélange des cultures.==Writing, Democracy, Crossfertilization
La Grèce archaïque
L’alphabet grec.
Science et démocratie.==Science and Democracy (Are Related)
Le mélange des cultures.==Cultural Mixing

8. Qu’est-ce que la science?==What Characterizes Science?
Penser Anaximandre après Einstein et Heisenberg.==Significance of Anax'der's Thought Seen Post-GR and QM, i.e. from Post-Einstein-Heisenberg Perspective (!)
L’effondrement des illusions du XIXème siècle.==Collapse of 19-th Century Illusions(!)
La science ne se réduit pas à des prédictions vérifiables.==Real Science Can Not Be Reduced To Testable Predictions (!)
Explorer les formes de pensée du monde.==Exploring How to Think the World
L’évolution de l’image du monde.==Getting a New Picture of the World
Règles du jeu et commensurabilité.==Rules of Play--Continuity of Understanding
Éloge de l’incertitude.==Best Understanding Recognizes Uncertainty

9. Entre relativisme culturel et pensée de l’absolu. Navigating Between Cultural Relativism and the Absolute-Avoiding Dangerous Foolishness on Either Side.

10. Peut-on comprendre le monde sans les dieux?==Can We Get Along Without Gods?
Le conflit.

13. La pensée pré-scientifique.==Pre-Scientific Thought
La nature de la pensée mystico-religieuse. Les différentes fonctions du divin.

14. Conclusion : l’héritage d’Anaximandre==Anaximander's Legacy to UsThe English edition publisher says the book is 256 pages. For a rough guess about material being added one can compare with the French edition, which is listed as 192 pages. Some of the difference could be due to other factors such as typesize.
However it would be natural for changes, revisions, additions to have occurred in the intervening 3 years and to appear in the English edition.
 
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  • #31
Given that this is turning into the longest teaser campaign for a book ever, you can read my own page summarising Anaximander's worldview at...

http://www.dichotomistic.com/logic_dichotomies_history_one.html

Or a good academic source is Anaximander and the Origins of Greek Cosmology by Charles Kahn.
 
  • #32
A young Dutch expert on Anaximander I just now was thinking of is Dirk Couprie.
I will hunt up his website. He has a book out too, but a website is quick and free.
http://www.dirkcouprie.nl/home.html

Dirk says:
"My main professional interest is in Presocratic philosophy and cosmology, and especially those of Anaximander, who lived at Miletus, 610-547 B.C."

and he gives some links:

"For more information on my latest book Heaven and Earth in Ancient Greek Cosmology: From Thales to Heraclides Ponticus click here.
Here is a special link to my article on Anaximander in The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy."
 
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  • #33
apeiron said:
Given that this is turning into the longest teaser campaign for a book ever, you can read my own page summarising Anaximander's worldview at...

http://www.dichotomistic.com/logic_dichotomies_history_one.html

Or a good academic source is Anaximander and the Origins of Greek Cosmology by Charles Kahn.

Apeiron, great to hear from you! I got out Charles Kahn's book from the library a couple of months back and dipped into it. There is also a young Dutch historian of science who has been studying Anax and thinking about his importance---he has a website, I put his name (Dirk Couprie) and a link to his website in the preceding post.

I like very much how you start your page. Ionia was the birthplace of rational thinking for many reasons. It is worth quoting bold blue:Greek philosophy began some two centuries before Athens in the scattered city states and colonies of Ionia, now the coast of Turkey. Ionia was the birthplace of rational thinking for many reasons.

The great civilisations of Mesopotamia, Egypt and the Indus had been agriculture-based, inward-looking, feudal and bureaucratic. The Ionian cities survived on fishing and trading. They were ruled by laws rather than kings. They had a wealthy merchant class who traveled widely. And by this time – around the 7th century BC – there was writing to record people’s ideas.

These first thinkers also had the advantage that they could come at the problem of existence with an utterly fresh eye. To use a memorable phrase, they saw: "the world lit by a kind of six-o'clock-in-the-morning light and the dew imperishably on the grass."

There were many famous Ionians - Thales, Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, Empedocles and Democritus are just some of them. Thales is conventionally considered the very first philosopher. But I would rather accord that honour to Anaximander of Miletus.


from Apeiron's http://www.dichotomistic.com/logic_dichotomies_history_one.html
 
  • #34
I was mistaken about Dirk Couprie's age, when I posted earlier. For some reason I had gotten the idea that he was an under-40 scholar. He was born in 1940!

marcus said:
A young Dutch expert on Anaximander I just now was thinking of is Dirk Couprie.
I will hunt up his website. He has a book out too, but a website is quick and free.
http://www.dirkcouprie.nl/home.html

Dirk says:
"My main professional interest is in Presocratic philosophy and cosmology, and especially those of Anaximander, who lived at Miletus, 610-547 B.C."

and he gives some links:

"For more information on my latest book Heaven and Earth in Ancient Greek Cosmology: From Thales to Heraclides Ponticus click here.
Here is a special link to my article on Anaximander in The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy."

When I posted earlier I did not have a working link to his article on Anaximander in the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy. I will hunt up one.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MAklZI346aYJ:www.iep.utm.edu/anaximan/+Couprie+Anaximander+Internet+Encyclopedia&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari&source=www.google.com

The regular IEP site is temporarily not responding.

I think Couprie's IEP article on Anaximander is quite helpful. He has also written a book, with two other historians of science, called "Anaximander in Context".

He also has a bibliography on Anaximander. Lengthy interesting list of writings.
http://www.dirkcouprie.nl/Anaximander-bibliography.htm
From the looks of it, the field of Anaximander Studies is expanding :biggrin:
 
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  • #35
Until recently the UK Amazon page for the new Anaximander book contained an error. Which fooled me. UK said the book was already on sale there and estimated it would take 12-14 days to fill the order. As of today they've corrected that mistake.

Also the cover design has been changed. The publisher's page shows a much better cover design than, say, a week ago. Piece of actual Greek stone carving: face of Anax in relief, with his name scratched at the top in what might be Attic caps.

I'm thinking the book will probably actually be out next month.

marcus said:
US publisher's page still gives September 2011 as their estimated date the book will appear
http://www.westholmepublishing.com/thefirstscientist.html

The Amazon.com page has the earlier estimates August 2011 (I'm inclined to think the later date more realistic.)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20

The book is already on sale in the UK!
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20

I'll carry along some other links and information for any interested newcomers:
Canadian Amazon page:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20

French publisher's page for the 2009 edition:
http://www.dunod.com/sciences-techn...ciences-de-la-matiere-et-/anaximandre-de-mile

Amazon.fr page:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/2100529390/?tag=pfamazon01-20

French edition TOC with sporadic rough interpretive translation:
Sommaire Introduction.

1. Le VIe siècle.==The Sixth Century BCE
Un panorama du monde.
Le savoir du VIe siècle : l’astronomie.==Science in the Sixth Century: Astronomy
Les dieux.==The Gods
Milet.==The City of Miletus

2. Les contributions d’Anaximandre. ==Anaximander's Contributions

3. Les phénomènes atmosphériques.==Meteorology (Understanding rain, thunder,..)
Le naturalisme cosmologique et biologique.==Naturalism in Cosmology and Biology

4. Flotte la Terre.==The Earth Floats in Space==Earth Adrift in Space (not needing to be anchored to supports)

5. Entités invisibles et lois naturelles.==Invisible Entities and Natural Laws
Y a-t-il dans la nature quelque chose que nous ne voyons pas?==Can Unseen Stuff Help Explain?
L’idée de loi naturelle : Anaximandre, Pythagore et Platon.==The Idea of Natural Law (Originated with Anax. Pyth. Plato)

6. Quand la révolte devient vertu.==(Rational) Revolt Becomes Respectable

7. Écriture, démocratie et mélange des cultures.==Writing, Democracy, Crossfertilization
La Grèce archaïque
L’alphabet grec.
Science et démocratie.==Science and Democracy (Are Related)
Le mélange des cultures.==Cultural Mixing

8. Qu’est-ce que la science?==What Characterizes Science?
Penser Anaximandre après Einstein et Heisenberg.==Significance of Anax'der's Thought Seen Post-GR and QM, i.e. from Post-Einstein-Heisenberg Perspective (!)
L’effondrement des illusions du XIXème siècle.==Collapse of 19-th Century Illusions(!)
La science ne se réduit pas à des prédictions vérifiables.==Real Science Can Not Be Reduced To Testable Predictions (!)
Explorer les formes de pensée du monde.==Exploring How to Think the World
L’évolution de l’image du monde.==Getting a New Picture of the World
Règles du jeu et commensurabilité.==Rules of Play--Continuity of Understanding
Éloge de l’incertitude.==Best Understanding Recognizes Uncertainty

9. Entre relativisme culturel et pensée de l’absolu. Navigating Between Cultural Relativism and the Absolute-Avoiding Dangerous Foolishness on Either Side.

10. Peut-on comprendre le monde sans les dieux?==Can We Get Along Without Gods?
Le conflit.

13. La pensée pré-scientifique.==Pre-Scientific Thought
La nature de la pensée mystico-religieuse. Les différentes fonctions du divin.

14. Conclusion : l’héritage d’Anaximandre==Anaximander's Legacy to UsThe English edition publisher says the book is 256 pages. For a rough guess about material being added one can compare with the French edition, which is listed as 192 pages. Some of the difference could be due to other factors such as typesize.
However it would be natural for changes, revisions, additions to have occurred in the intervening 3 years and to appear in the English edition.

Charles Kahn, in his book "Anaximander and the Origins of Greek Cosmology" has a photo of this relief portrait and says "probably early Roman Empire after Hellenistic original". The fragment is in the Museo Nazionale Romano.
That would make sense. The Romans copied enormous amounts of Greek artwork. And I can imagine Greeks of the Hellenistic period making artist-conception portraits of famous philosophers. The Hellenistic period in history was started by a guy who had Aristotle for his private tutor.

I can't decide whether to call it mezzo-relievo or alto-relievo. I think it is mid-relief. No complete undercutting of the head.
The cover photo of this mid-relief portrait seems to have been clarified with photoshop, or else taken with very good lighting---I'm glad to say.

Not sure what "early Roman Empire" means in context of Charles Kahn's caption. Romans conquered Macedonia around 170 BCE. Alexander Great died around 330 BCE, he created a kind of Hellenistic cooperative sphere of influence (not exactly an empire). What would you say the dates are for the Hellenistic period? 330-170 BCE? Or more broadly 350-100 BCE?

So maybe this Roman copy of head and torso Anaximander was done in 100 BCE. The Hellenistic period original might for example have been made during the lifetime of Archimedes 287-212 BCE.

That was a time when Greeks determined the circumference of the Earth accurately to within 2%. (Eratothenes in Alexandria) and discovered that the sun was much farther away than the moon (more than 10 times farther, perhaps 20, Aristarchus on Samos, born 300 years after Anax, in 310 BCE)
 
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  • #36
In case of interest here is an excerpt of an online resource:
Timeline related to Greek Science and Technology

800 BCE
Vowels were by the Greeks to consonants of Phoenician origin.

610 BCE
Birth of Anaximander of Miletus.

About 600 BCE
Thales of Miletus (Θαλής ο Μιλήσιος ) arguing from the fact that wherever there is life, there is moisture, speculated that the basic stuff of nature is water, according to Aristotle. He brings Babylonian mathematical knowledge to Greece and uses geometry to solve problems such as calculating the height of pyramids and the distance of ships from the shore.

About 600 -501 BCE
Sun dial (gnomon) in use in Greece and China.
Theodorus of Samos credited with invention of ore smelting and casting, water level, lock and key, carpenter's square, and turning lathe.
First water supply system in Athens has nine pipes leading to main well.

About 585 BCE
Thales of Miletus predicts a solar eclipse.

About 560 BCE
Anaximander (Αναξίμανδρος ο Μιλήσιος ) proposes that the Earth floats unsupported in space. Its surface is cylindrical. The “author of the first geometrical model of the world...” Charles Kahn Anaximander and the Origins of Greek Cosmology

About 530 BCE
Pythagoras (Πυθαγόρας ο Σάμιος ) discovered the dependence of musical intervals on the arithmetical ratios of the lengths of string at the same tension, 2:1 giving an octave, 3:2 the fifth, and 4:3 the fourth. He is also credited with a general formula for finding two square numbers the sum of which is also a square, namely (if m is any odd number), m2+{1/2(m2-1)}2={1/2(m2+1)}2. "The Pythagoreans and Plato [as well as the Renaissance Neo-Platonists] noted that the conclusions they reached deductively agreed to a remarkable extent with the results of observation and inductive inference. Unable to account otherwise for this agreement, they were led to regard mathematics as the study of ultimate, eternal reality, immanent in nature and the universe, rather than as a branch of logic or a tool of science and technology" (Boyer 1949:1). Consequently, when the Pythagoreans developed the theory of geometric magnitudes, by which they were able to compare two surfaces' ratio, they were led, for lack of a system which could handle irrational numbers, to the 'incommensurability problem': Applying the side of a square to the diagonal, no common rational measure is discoverable.

Pythagoras proposes that sound is a vibration of air.

About 510 BCE
Almaeon of Crotona (Αλκμαίων ο Κροτωνιάτης ) a member of the Pythagorean medical circle, located the seat of perception in the brain, or enkephalos, and maintained that there were passages connecting the senses to the brain, a position he was said to have arrived at by dissections of the optic nerve.

About 500 BCE
Water system built by Eupalinus (Ευπαλίνος ο Μεγαρεύς) on Samos, three-quarter-mile-long tunnel, 20 meter deep, started simultaneously at both ends. Herodotus consider this as one of the three greatest Greek constructions.

About 500 BCE
Xenophanes examined fossils and speculated on the evolution of the earth.
Alcmaeon, Greek physician, discovers Eustachian tubes c. -500

479-431 BCE
Golden Age of Athens

About 465 BCE
Hippasus ('Ιππασος ο Μεταποντίνος) writes of a "sphere of 12 pentagons", which must refer to a dodecahedron

About 450 BCE
Anaxagoras of Athens taught that the moon shines with the light of the sun and so was able to explain the eclipses.

About 440 BCE
Leucippus of Miletus said that the world consisted in the void and atoms, which are imperceptible individual particles that differ only in size, shape, and position. That these particles were imperceptible meant they met Parmenides' objection to the Pythagorean's geometric points and, since they alone were unchanging, change could be explained as mere sense impressions. "It is scarcely an exaggeration to say that even in 1900 the only new idea to Leucippus's theory was that each chemical element was identified with a separate atomic species" (Park 1990:41).

Oenopides of Chios (Οινοπίδης ο Χίος) probably created the first three of what became Euclid's 'postulates' or assumptions. What is postulated guarantees the existence of straight lines, circles, and points of intersection. That they needed to be postulated is because they require 'movement,' the possibility of which was challenged by the Eleatics (Szabó 1978:276-279).

About 430-440 BCE
Hippocrates of Chios squared the lune, a major step toward squaring the circle, probably using the theorem that circles are to one another as the squares of their diameters. He writes the Elements which is the first compilation of the elements of geometry

Hippias of Elis (Ιππίας ο Ηλείος) invents the quadratrix which may have been used by him for trisecting an angle and squaring the circle.

Prior to about 425 BCE
Herodotus wrote the first scientific history; that is, he began by asking questions, rather than just telling what he thinks he knows. Moreover, these questions were "about things done by men at a determinate time in the past, [and the history itself ] exists in order to tell man what man is by telling him what man has done" (Collingwood 1946:18).

About 425 BCE
Theodorus of Cyrene (Θεόδωρος ο Κυρηναίος) shows that certain square roots are irrational. This had been shown earlier but it is not known by whom.

Thebans use a flame-thrower at Delium.

About 420 BCE
Democritus of Abdera (Δημόκριτος ο Αβδηρίτης) developed Leucippus's atomic theory: Atoms vibrate when hitched together in solid bodies and exist in a space which is infinite in extent and in which each star is a sun and has its own world. He also produced two major concepts in the history of ideas concerning the brain--that thought was situated there and, anticipating the nervous system, that psychic atoms constituted the material basis of its communication with the rest of the body and the world outside. Socrates, and hence the Platonic school, followed Democritus in locating thought in the brain.

About 387 BCE
Plato founds his Academy in Athens

About 375 BCE
Archytas of Tarentum develops mechanics. He studies the "classical problem" of doubling the cube and applies mathematical theory to music. He also constructs the first automaton.

About 370-360 BCE
Eudoxus of Cnidus invented a model of twenty-seven concentric spheres by which he was able to calculate the sun's annual motions through the zodiac, the moon's motion including its wobble, and the planets' retrograde motion. He used what came much later to be called the 'exhaustion method' for area determination. This method involved inscribing polygons within circles, reducing the difference ad absurdum, and was wholly geometric since there was at that time no knowledge of an arithmetical continuum, at least among the Greeks.

About 340 BCE
Aristaeus writes Five Books concerning Conic Sections.
Praxagoras of Cos discovers the difference between arteries and veins.

About 335 BCE
Strato, experiments with falling bodies and levers.

About 330 BCE
Heraclides of Pontus said that the Earth turns daily on its axis "while the heavenly things were at rest..., considered the cosmos to be infinite..., [and] with the Pythagoreans, considered each planet to be a world with an earth-like body and with an atmosphere" (Dreyer 1906:123-125). He also suggested that Mercury and Venus have the sun at the center of their spheres.

Pytheas navigated the British Isles and the northern seas and upon returning home wrote about an island that he called Thule or Ultima Thule

Aristotle, describes image projection in terms of the camera obscura

About 325 BCE
Alexander orders his admiral, Nearchus, to explore the Indian Ocean, Persian Gulf, and Euphrates

Pytheas, tides are caused by moon

330 BCE ??
Diving bell used

About 320 BCE
Eudemus of Rhodes writes the History of Geometry.

About 314 BCE
The first reference to the pyroelectric effect by Theophrastus who noted that tourmaline becomes charged when heated.

310 BCE
Birth of Aristarchus of Samos.

About 300 BCE
Eukleides, better known as Euclid, published his Elements, a reorganized compilation of geometrical proofs including new proofs and a much earlier essay on the foundations of arithmetic. Elements conclude with the construction of Plato's five regular solids. Euclidean space has no natural edge, and is thus infinite. In his Optica, he noted that light travels in straight lines and described the law of reflection.

About 300 BCE
Dicaiarch of Messina (350-290 BCE), Greek geographer introduces to the map making world the notion of latitude and longitude

About 290-260 BCE
Aristarchus of Samos, in On the Sizes and Distances of the Sun and Moon, used trigonometry to estimate the size of the Moon and its distance by the Earth's shadow during a lunar eclipse. Archimedes and others said that he maintained that the Moon revolved around the Earth and the Earth around the Sun which remained stationary like the stars.

287 BCE
Birth of Archimedes (Αρχιμήδης ο Συρακούσιος)

276 BCE
Birth of Eratosthenes

About 270 BCE
Greek inventor Ctesibius of Alexandria includes gearing in clepsydras

About 260-250 BCE
Archimedes of Syracuse contributed numerous advances to science including the principle that a body immersed in fluid is buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the displaced fluid and the calculation of the value of pi. "His method was to select definite and limited problems. He then formulated hypotheses which he either regarded, in the Euclidean manner, as self-evident axioms or could verify by simple experiments. The consequences of these he then deduced and experimentally verified" (Crombie 1952:278). Description of the Loculus of Archimedes; Archimedean Polyhedra; Volume of Intersection of Two Cylinders; Archimedes' Cattle Problem. Principle of the lever , discovery of the principle of buoyancy

About 245 BCE
Callimachus of Cyrene, a scholar and librarian at the Library of Alexandria, "created for the first time a catalog of Greek literature covering 120,000 books, called the Pinakes or Tables

About 240 BCE
Eratosthenes of Cyrene calculated the diameter of the Earth by measuring noontime shadows at sites 800 km. apart. Assuming the Earth is a sphere, the measured angle between the sites is seven degrees and the circumference is about 50 times 800 km., or about 40,000 km.

About 230 BCE
Eratosthenes of Cyrene develops his sieve method for finding all prime numbers.

Before the end of the third century BCE
Astrolabes were in use for taking the angular distance between any two objects, usually the elevation in the sky of planets.

In the early second century BCE
Diocles, in On Burning Mirrors, proved the focal property of a parabola and showed how the Sun's rays can be made to reflect a point by rotating a parabolic mirror (Toomer 1978).

About 225-210 BCE?
Apollonius of Perga writes Conics. He introduced probably first the terms 'parabola' and 'hyperbola,' curves formed when a plane intersects a conic section, and 'ellipse,' a closed curve formed when a plane intersects a cone.

About 134-127 BCE
Hipparchus of Rhodes (Ιππαρχος ο Ρόδιος ) measured the year with great accuracy and built the first comprehensive star chart with 850 stars and a luminosity, or brightness, scale. He is credited with the discovery of the precision of the equinoxes, and seems to have been very impressed that either of two geometrically constructed hypotheses could 'save the appearance' of the path that a planet follows: One shows the planets moving in eccentric circles and the other moving in epicycles carried by concentric circles (Duhem 1908:8).

THANKS to a German website "miahanas". Much of the timeline is taken from there and edited down to fit in one normalsize post. http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HistoricEvents.htm
 
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  • #37
marcus said:
In case of interest here is an excerpt of an online resource:
Timeline related to Greek Science and Technology

Thank you marcus - for this wonderful timeline.
 
  • #38
  • #39
Very interesting, indeed. Thank you, Marcus.
 
  • #41
WhoWee, Fuzzyfelt, Apeiron, you might be interested in watching this short YouTube about the Antikythera device.
A scientist/historian/craftsman named Michael Wright made a lifesize working model. He operates the reconstructed device and explains it.


Eclipses get predicted by a spiral dial. Planets go around at varying speeds and do their proper retrograde motion (as seen from the earth.) It's "high Greek science"--very neat.
 
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  • #42
I didn't appreciate the complexity of the device until viewing this video.
 
  • #43
I want to appreciate how fast the Aegean science tradition developed after it got started around 600 BCE. Arithmetic is a lot easier for me, intuitively, going forward so I am going to repeat some of the earlier timeline starting the yearcount around 600 BCE.

According to Wkpd, Thales was born in 624 BCE so he would have been 24 years old in 600 BCE when I start the count. It impressed me to see how fast things took off after that. I'm going to call the yearcount "AET" for "Aegean explanatory tradition". If that's too long to say, just call it "Aegean time". Thales et al started a style of explanation (that we now call "natural") involving substances, material process and mechanisms instead of the Olympian pantheon. They used ideas like evaporation, condensation, celestial wheels, spheres, force, periodic motion, and they asked what causes stuff like rain thunder earthquakes lunar phases. They asked about proportions. Let's gauge how fast this developed once it got rolling.

I adapted this timeline from a German website and can't vouch for it in detail.


-200 AET (=800 BCE)
Phonetic Greek alphabet. The Ionian Greeks basically invented vowels, which the Phoenician alphabet they adopted did not have: Since Greek has fewer consonants than Phoenician, when applying the Phoenician alphabet they found they had some extra symbols left over. They assigned these unused Phoenician consonants to Greek vowell sounds.

-24 AET (=624 BCE)
Birth of Thales of Miletus, first documented searcher for systematic natural explanations.

-10 AET
Birth of Anaximander of Miletus (lived from -10 to 54 AET)

About 0 AET (=600 BCE)
Thales of Miletus (Θαλής ο Μιλήσιος ) arguing from the fact that wherever there is life, there is moisture, speculated that the basic stuff of nature is water, according to Aristotle. He brings Babylonian mathematical knowledge to Greece and uses geometry to solve problems such as calculating the height of pyramids and the distance of ships from the shore.

About 15 AET
Thales predicts a solar eclipse (probably thanks to Babylonian records, not to basic understanding, but anyway...)

About 40 AET
Anaximander (Αναξίμανδρος ο Μιλήσιος ) proposes that the Earth floats unsupported in space. The “author of the first geometrical model of the world...” Charles Kahn Anaximander and the Origins of Greek Cosmology. Proposed an explantation for rain: that it results from evaporation of water caused by the action of the sun. Proposed natural explanations for numerous other phenomena and suggested that land animals originated from sea life.

About 70 AET
Pythagoras (Πυθαγόρας ο Σάμιος; 30 to 110 AET ) discovered the dependence of musical intervals on the arithmetical ratios of the lengths of string at the same tension, 2:1 giving an octave, 3:2 the fifth, and 4:3 the fourth...Pythagoras proposed that sound is a vibration of air.

About 90 AET
Almaeon of Crotona (Αλκμαίων ο Κροτωνιάτης ) a member of the Pythagorean medical circle, located the seat of perception in the brain, or enkephalos, and maintained that there were passages connecting the senses to the brain, a position he was said to have arrived at by dissections of the optic nerve.

About 100 AET
Water system built by Eupalinus (Ευπαλίνος ο Μεγαρεύς) on Samos, three-quarter-mile-long tunnel, 20 meter deep, started simultaneously at both ends. Herodotus consider this as one of the three greatest Greek constructions.
Theodorus of Samos credited with invention of ore smelting and casting, water level, lock and key, carpenter's square, and turning lathe.
Xenophanes examined fossils and speculated on the evolution of the earth.

About 135 AET
Hippasus ('Ιππασος ο Μεταποντίνος) writes of a "sphere of 12 pentagons", which must refer to a dodecahedron

About 150 AET
Anaxagoras of Athens taught that the moon shines with the light of the sun and so was able to explain the eclipses.

About 160 AET
Leucippus of Miletus said that the world consisted in the void and atoms, which are imperceptible individual particles that differ only in size, shape, and position...
Oenopides of Chios (Οινοπίδης ο Χίος) probably created the first three of what became Euclid's 'postulates' or assumptions...

About 160-170 AET
Hippocrates of Chios squared the lune, a major step toward squaring the circle, probably using the theorem that circles are to one another as the squares of their diameters. He writes the Elements which is the first compilation of the elements of geometry

About 175 AET
Theodorus of Cyrene (Θεόδωρος ο Κυρηναίος) shows that certain square roots are irrational. This had been shown earlier but it is not known by whom.

About 180 AET
Democritus of Abdera (Δημόκριτος ο Αβδηρίτης) developed Leucippus's atomic theory: Atoms vibrate when hitched together in solid bodies and exist in a space which is infinite in extent and in which each star is a sun and has its own world...

About 213 AET
Plato founds his Academy in Athens

About 225 AET
Archytas of Tarentum develops mechanics. He constructs (the first?) automaton.

About 230-240 AET
Eudoxus of Cnidus invented a model of twenty-seven concentric spheres by which he was able to calculate the sun's annual motions through the zodiac, the moon's motion including its wobble, and the planets' retrograde motion. He used what came much later to be called the 'exhaustion method' for area determination. This method involved inscribing polygons within circles, reducing the difference ad absurdum, and was wholly geometric since there was at that time no knowledge of an arithmetical continuum, at least among the Greeks.

About 260 AET
Aristaeus writes Five Books concerning Conic Sections.
Praxagoras of Cos discovers the difference between arteries and veins.

About 265 AET
Strato, experiments with falling bodies and levers.

About 270 AET
Heraclides of Pontus said that the Earth turns daily on its axis "while the heavenly things were at rest..., considered the cosmos to be infinite..., [and] with the Pythagoreans, considered each planet to be a world with an earth-like body and with an atmosphere" (Dreyer 1906:123-125). He also suggested that Mercury and Venus have the sun at the center of their spheres.
Pytheas navigated the British Isles and the northern seas and upon returning home wrote about an island that he called Thule or Ultima Thule. Pytheas explained the tides as caused by the moon.
Aristotle, describes image projection in terms of the camera obscura.
Apparently about this time the diving bell used for work under water.

About 286 AET
The first reference to the pyroelectric effect by Theophrastus who noted that tourmaline becomes charged when heated.

290 AET
Birth of Aristarchus of Samos (lived 290-370 AET)

About 300 AET
Eukleides, better known as Euclid, published his Elements, a reorganized compilation of geometrical proofs including new proofs and a much earlier essay on the foundations of arithmetic. Elements conclude with the construction of Plato's five regular solids. Euclidean space has no natural edge, and is thus infinite. In his Optica, he noted that light travels in straight lines and described the law of reflection.
Dicaiarch of Messina (250-310 AET), Greek geographer introduces the notion of latitude and longitude in map-making.

About 310-340 AET
Aristarchus of Samos, in On the Sizes and Distances of the Sun and Moon, used trigonometry to estimate the size of the Moon and its distance by the Earth's shadow during a lunar eclipse. Inferred from observation that the Sun was much farther away than the Moon. Archimedes and others said that he maintained that the Moon revolved around the Earth and the Earth around the Sun which remained stationary like the stars.

313 AET
Birth of Archimedes (Αρχιμήδης ο Συρακούσιος; 313-388 AET)

324 NET
Birth of Eratosthenes of Cyrene (Ἐρατοσθένης ο Κυρηναίος; 324-405 AET)

About 330 AET
Greek inventor Ctesibius of Alexandria includes gearing in clepsydras

About 340-350 AET
Archimedes of Syracuse contributed numerous advances to science including the principle that a body immersed in fluid is buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the displaced fluid and the calculation of the value of pi. "His method was to select definite and limited problems. He then formulated hypotheses which he either regarded, in the Euclidean manner, as self-evident axioms or could verify by simple experiments. The consequences of these he then deduced and experimentally verified" (Crombie 1952:278)...

About 355 AET
Callimachus of Cyrene, a scholar and librarian at the Library of Alexandria, "created for the first time a catalog of Greek literature covering 120,000 books, called the Pinakes or Tables."

About 360 AET
Eratosthenes calculated the diameter of the Earth by measuring noontime shadows at sites 800 km. apart. Assuming the Earth is a sphere, the measured angle between the sites is seven degrees and the circumference is about 50 times 800 km., or about 40,000 km.

About 370 AET
Eratosthenes develops his sieve method for finding all prime numbers.

About 375-390 AET
Apollonius of Perga writes Conics. He introduced probably first the terms 'parabola' and 'hyperbola,' curves formed when a plane intersects a conic section, and 'ellipse,' a closed curve formed when a plane intersects a cone.

Before 400 AET
Astrolabes were in use for taking the angular distance between any two objects, usually the elevation in the sky of planets.

In the early fifth century AET (i.e. the early 400s)
Diocles, in On Burning Mirrors, proved the focal property of a parabola and showed how the Sun's rays can be made to reflect a point by rotating a parabolic mirror (Toomer 1978).

About 466-473 AET
Hipparchus of Rhodes (Ιππαρχος ο Ρόδιος; c.410-480 AET) measured the year with great accuracy and built the first comprehensive star chart with 850 stars and a luminosity, or brightness, scale. He is credited with the discovery of the precession of the equinoxes, and [noted] that either of two geometrically constructed hypotheses could 'save the appearance' of the path that a planet follows: One shows the planets moving in eccentric circles and the other moving in epicycles carried by concentric circles (Duhem 1908:8).

This timeline is adapted from http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HistoricEvents.htm I cannot vouch for it's accuracy. Some details would need to be checked. Corrections are welcome if anyone has some to suggest.
==========

Probably the best source for this whole development, especially the period 350-100 BCE (which would be Aegean years 250-500, through the time of Hipparchus in other words) is the book by Lucio Russo called The Forgotten Revolution.
 
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  • #44
I just found the article on Anaximander at the IEP website. (Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy).
http://www.iep.utm.edu/anaximan/

I knew about this, but when I tried to read it earlier the site was down. This time it was up. I really like it. Good source!

IEP has an article on Thales too. On scores of interesting people, in fact. At the top of every page there is an alphabet. Click on any letter and browse the names that begin with that letter.
 
  • #45
Thank you, Marcus, this thread is a treat!
 
  • #46
fuzzyfelt said:
Thank you, Marcus, this thread is a treat!

Thanks to you, and WhoWee as well! It's a pleasure to share an interest like this with you.

Rovelli's new book just came out!
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20
It already has one 5-star review, as I should know :biggrin:
Great book. Not only about a truly original scientific mind but also about the world of those independent coastal Ionian cities interconnected by sea (and in contact with older river-based civilizations.)
 
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  • #47
marcus said:
Thanks to you, and WhoWee as well! It's a pleasure to share an interest like this with you.

Rovelli's new book just came out!
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20
It already has one 5-star review, as I should know :biggrin:
Great book. Not only about a truly original scientific mind but also about the world of those independent coastal Ionian cities interconnected by sea (and in contact with older river-based civilizations.)

Good news! I'm looking forward to reading it!
 
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  • #48
I found more online source material about the Antikythera mechanism:
http://www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/faq/general-questions/why-is-it-so-important

There is an FAQ maintained by "The Antikythera Mechanism Research Project". It gives the estimated date of construction as "150-100BC" which in my way of numbering the timeline of science starting from the time of Thales and Anaximander would be «450» to «500».
Look back at post #43 for a sample timeline. (I decided simple angle quotes were a better way to distinguish the year-number---rather than tagging with some abbreviation like "AET".
Or at least a convenient undistracting alternative.

I noticed that the Anaximander book is selling in the Japanese market as well as more obvious English-speaking ones (Usa, UK,...)
http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/1594161313/ ベストセラー商品ランキング: 洋書 - 508,077位 (洋書のベストセラーを見る)
780位 ─ 洋書 > History > Ancient > Greece
1428位 ─ 洋書 > History > Europe > Greece
8197位 ─ 洋書 > Science > History & Philosophy

It could be fun to try to figure this out. I think 洋書 means ENGLISH. So amazon Japan has a special category of English books and First Scientist is #508,077 just among the English books.
I think 位 means "-th" so 508,077位 means 508,077-th

And then you can see that its salesrank is 780-th among the
English>History>Ancient>Greece books.

It could be that they only HAVE 780 books in that category at Amazon.co.jp
so Rovelli's book could be at the tail end of the line :biggrin: in Japan. But it is interesting they even stock it. They seem to have a lot of English titles at Amazon Japan and a pretty good selection by my standards. More kind of educated reader stuff. which makes sense because the people who want the cruder pops would be buying books in Japanese rather than English.
[Edit: 10 hours later the rank hadn't changed much: 洋書 - 508,205位 ]
 
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  • #49
The Antikythera Mechanism is extremely beautiful and wonderful. It was contructed on the island of Rhodes and looted by the Romans when they attacked and invaded the island. But their ship sank in a storm and they never got it back to Rome.

See these lovely YouTubes



Additional information in this as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrfMFhrgOFc&feature=fvst

X-ray tomography was used to map the gear trains and it was only finally understood in 2008 what all the device calculated (moon phases, planet positions, probable eclipse years on a 63 year cycle, olympiads...)
According to Wkpd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
Pindar the Greek poet 119±40 in his 7th Olympic ode (Epode 3) gave high praise to Rhodian craftsmanship ... But that was long before the Antikythera device was constructed.
West of Crete is the island of Kythera where Venus is said to have arisen from the sea, and a small island next to Kythera is called Antikythera. The Roman loot ship sank there in a storm on its way back to Rome.
 
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  • #50
http://www.libreriauniversitaria.it/cos-scienza-rivoluzione-anassimandro-rovelli/libro/9788861840751

Finally the Italian edition of Rovelli's book. I think Mondadori is Italy's largest publisher, so they may do an effective job of promotion. Get it reviewed in the media and so on. That could have some effect on the reception of the English version, I imagine.
It looks like it's now available. "Usually ships in 5 to 6 working days."

The title is different. I will give a rough translation of the publisher's description:
What is science? Anaximander's revolution.
"All human civiliizations have believed that the world consisted of Heaven above and Earth below. All but one. For the Greeks the Earth was a rock floating in space: beneath the Earth there was neither a supporting ground, nor turtles, nor the gigantic columns of which the Bible speaks.
How did the Greeks come to realize that the Earth is suspended in emptiness? Who first grasped this, and how?
The author gives us an account of Anaximander's extraordinary «scientific revolution», which Karl Popper has described as «one of the boldest, most revolutionary, and most important ideas in the entire history of human thought.» And an account of the conflict this opened up, which is still burning. Also of the nature of scientific thought, of its ability to criticize and rebel, of the force with which it subverts the order of things and our image of the world. And an account as well of how scientific knowledge can be, at the same time, extremely effective and «wrong», as the example of XX Century physics shows. To discuss Anaximander is to reflect on the meaning of the scientific revolution that began with Einstein."

Here is the Italian original:

Che cos'è la scienza? La rivoluzione di Anassimandro
di Rovelli Carlo
Tutte le civiltà umane hanno sempre pensato che il mondo fosse fatto di Cielo sopra e Terra sotto. Tutte, eccetto una. Per i Greci la Terra era un sasso che galleggia nello spazio; sotto la Terra non c'era altra terra, né tartarughe, né le gigantesche colonne di cui parla la Bibbia. Come hanno fatto i Greci a comprendere che la Terra è sospesa nel nulla? Chi lo ha capito e come? È di questa straordinaria «rivoluzione scientifica» di Anassimandro che l'autore ci parla, e che Karl Popper ha definito «una delle idee più audaci, rivoluzionarie e portentose dell'intera storia del pensiero umano". E del conflitto che ha aperto, che ancora brucia. E della natura del pensiero scientifico, della sua capacità critica e ribelle, della forza con cui sovverte l'ordine delle cose e la nostra immagine del mondo; di un sapere scientifico estremamente efficace e «sbagliato» al tempo stesso, come ci insegna la fisica del xx secolo. Parlare di Anassimandro è riflettere su cosa significhi la rivoluzione scientifica aperta da Einstein.

I found some more detail here, a kind of newsletter on the media dated end July:
http://www.italiannetwork.it/news.aspx?id=29101

I was puzzled by not being able to find a picture of the COVER of the Italian edition
=========================

If anyone is new to the discussion, the English version of the book is here:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594161313/?tag=pfamazon01-20
 
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