Off-topic discussion from Why talk about 1967 borders?

[nobahar]

Off-topic discussion from "Why talk about 1967 borders?"

I apologise to Hurkyl in advance for not answering your question! Instead I’d like to address some points made by Mege.

A couple of citations appear more than once, as I feel they demonstarte more than one point, and the same point reoccurs.

Israel was attacked, retaliated, and expanded to a defensible position.

The invasion and occupation of all of Palestine, you mean? Whilst building illegal settlements (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf). That hardly constitutes an act of defence. In fact, it’s the exact opposite, illegal settlement building is a direct act of aggression. Israel has already conquered Palestinian land, and so it does not require shelling to displace people, they can merely knock down Palestinian villages and build settlements on Palestinian land (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/033/2004 ;http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2004/10/17/razing-rafah-0).

Even if Israel did break international law (ignoring the outcome of the law...), should the recourse really be to punish them or are there other meritous things to consider?

Firstly, returning Palestinian land to the Palestinians is not a ‘punishment’ to Israel, it is returning the land to whom it belongs. How can it possibly be a ‘punishment’ to Israel?, it’s not Israel’s land.

(like Israel being ranked higher in freedoms than the surrounding countries).

Let’s say Israel was a democracy, does that justify war crimes, the invasion of Palestine, the occupation of Palestine, the building of illegal settlements (http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/illegal-israeli-settlement-plans-threaten-palestinian-human-rights-2010-10-15; http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf) and the treatment of Palestinians as sub-human (http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,UNCHR,,PSE,4562d8cf2,4267b5d14,0.html; http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2010)? Does Democracy justify such actions? If so, then the US/Britain/[insert Democratic country here] can do what it likes around the world; commit genocide if it likes, and the response would be: “Hey, it’s justified, we are a democracy!”.

On the beacon of light: I see most other Middle Eastern countries as being very oppressed where Israel has a significant amount of freedoms. They're not perfect by any stretch, but there is no systemic state discrimination against social groups like in Syria or Iran (where capital punishment isn't a big deal for say rejecting Islam).

Actually, there is systemic state discrimination and human rights abuses; it has been going on for a long time (http://www.hrw.org/node/95113). Including war crimes and attempts to inflict purposeful suffering on Palestinians. If Israel considered the Palestinians equal, would they really drop white phosphorous on Gaza, and use Palestinian children to carry out dangerous tasks, and use Palestinians, including children, as human shields? (http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/israeloccupied-palestinian-territories-israel039s-use-white-phosphorus-a; http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/10/israel-stop-unlawful-use-white-phosphorus-gaza; http://www.hrw.org/en/node/81726/section/6; http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNFFMGC_Report.pdf; http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2010; http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/033/2004 ).

I think it's a contradiction in policy that we're willing to threaten sanctions on China for 'human rights violations' but yet turn a blind eye to the lack of gender and religious equality in Islamic states.

Here I agree with you. A number of the oppressive Islamic states are allies to the West. Why would the west care that they are oppressive?

You can call me biased if you want, but I have zero personal stake in the matter except as a point of social pride in seeing another country with similar freedoms to our own be successful.

Freedoms? See above.

The only irrationality that I may present is exceptionalism of Judeo-Christian/Western culture (as opposed to Islamic/Arab culture in this case).

I’m glad you see it as an irrationality. I am going to refer to Judaism here purely because you seem to consider ‘Judeo-Christian culture’ as consistent with Western culture, I don’t understand this and I don’t think (and I hope it’s not) true. Culture is a fairly wide ranging term but can include perceptions of morality, equality, etc. For purposes of supporting my opinion, here is a tiny portion of aspects of Judaism which I believe to be incongruous with current perceptions of morality held by many people around the world (not just ‘the West’, as human rights organisations in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and so on demonstrate):

Attitudes towards homosexuality: “And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” Leviticus 20:13. They really dislike homosexuality, so much so that a daughter is a nice offering instead: Judges 19: 16-30 A nice bit on slavery: Leviticus 25: 44-46; and slavery and murder: Deuteronomy 20:10-16. All whilst being thankful everyday for not being a woman (I’m referring to the morning blessings), unless you are a women, which is then unfortunate.

 

[tiny-tim]

… For purposes of supporting my opinion, here is a tiny portion of aspects of Judaism which I believe to be incongruous with current perceptions of morality held by many people around the world (not just ‘the West’, as human rights organisations in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and so on demonstrate):

Attitudes towards homosexuality: “And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” Leviticus 20:13. They really dislike homosexuality, so much so that a daughter is a nice offering instead: Judges 19: 16-30 A nice bit on slavery: Leviticus 25: 44-46; and slavery and murder: Deuteronomy 20:10-16. All whilst being thankful everyday for not being a woman (I’m referring to the morning blessings), unless you are a women, which is then unfortunate.

nobahar, this really is racist nonsense …

everyone knows that gays are treated normally in Israel, and Israel even gives asylum to Palestinian gays

there are gay rabbis, female rabbis, and gays and females in positions of responsibility in virtually all others sectors of jewish life

this is not the thread, and this is not the forum, for you to put out anti-jewish propaganda ​

 

[rootX]

"Conservative Jews Allow Gay Rabbis and Unions "
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/07/us/07jews.html

 

[Proton Soup]

@Proton Soup - did you actually read the article you posted? 'Ethnic cleansing' by giving up their residency status for being out of the country for years is... a horrible thing? It's far from ethnic cleansing, instead it's good bookkeeping by a government that wants to make sure they're not being had by poor border protection policies. How many 'dead people' vote in the US each year? How many 'dead people' do you think cross the US's borders each year? Israel is just protecting themselves from that sort of fraud, unfortunately the policy may be a little slanted because more Palestinians travel for long periods of time, but nothing in the policy specifically calls out a cultural group.

you think it is ok to deny people their land when they travel to get an education, but it is ok to grant others a claim when they have been gone for 2000 years?

israel is protecting itself from democracy, not fraud.

 

[nobahar]

nobahar, this really is racist nonsense …

everyone knows that gays are treated normally in Israel, and Israel even gives asylum to Palestinian gays

there are gay rabbis, female rabbis, and gays and females in positions of responsibility in virtually all others sectors of jewish life

this is not the thread, and this is not the forum, for you to put out anti-jewish propaganda ​

Hey! Don't accuse my of anti-jewish "propaganda"! I NEVER said discrimination against homosexuals nor sexism is practiced in Israel, can you cite where I said it was? I was replying to Mege's opnion: that he accepts Judeo-Christian exceptionalism, and I pointed out, by referring to the Old Tetsament, that the Old Testament is not consistent with modern opinion on morality, equality, etc, and therefore this form of exceptionalism should be discarded with. I am deeply offended that you accuse me of being racist, I cited parts of the Old Testament, none of the citations are fabricated and I iterate that I NEVER claimed that discrimination against Homosexuals nor sexism is practiced in Israel, I also cite slavery in the Old Testament, do you honesty believe I think slavery is practiced there? You never raised that point. If you cannot cite evidence of such a claim, I request an apology for your accusation that the point was anti-semitic (anti-jewish)

 

[tiny-tim]

mege never mentioned religion, only "Judeo-Christian/Western culture" …

… You can call me biased if you want, but I have zero personal stake in the matter except as a point of social pride in seeing another country with similar freedoms to our own be successful. Too often countries fall into cycles of hatred and dictatorships (see Egypt). I hope my short arguements are based in some rational decision (weither you agree or not...), as I do try to avoid any emotional entanglements. The only irrationality that I may present is exceptionalism of Judeo-Christian/Western culture (as opposed to Islamic/Arab culture in this case).

… yet you used that an excuse for what is certainly an attack on judaism

Hey! Don't accuse my of anti-jewish "propaganda"! I NEVER said discrimination against homosexuals nor sexism is practiced in Israel …

exactly … in a thread on Israel, that part of your post made no attack on Israel, only on judaism

 

[nobahar]

mege never mentioned religion, only "Judeo-Christian/Western culture" …


… yet you used that an excuse for what is certainly an attack on judaism

No, Mege made reference to JUDEO-CHRISTIAN/Western Culture and compared it to ISLAMIC/Arab culture. This suggests a religious aspect to the cultures. I therefore made reference to Judaism (the Old Testament), and stated that this is not consistent with 'Western culture'. I also stated Western culture is difficult to define, and can have a number of components, and Mege's use of Judeo-Christian contrasted with Islamic cultures suggests, as I stated, a religious component, that is why I made reference to Judaism. Also, I cited the Old Testament. What do you think Judeo-Christian contrasted with Islamic means?

exactly … in a thread on Israel, that part of your post made no attack on Israel, only on judaism

Did I raise the issue of Culture in a thread on Israel? No, Mege did; and I responded to his argument about the supposedly contrasting cultures and exceptionalism which Mege USED TO JUSTIFY HIS SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL. I therefore addressed that point. You have yet to point out where I said discrimination against homosexuals and women is practiced.

 

[rootX]

mege never mentioned religion, only "Judeo-Christian/Western culture" …… yet you used that an excuse for what is certainly an attack on judaism exactly … in a thread on Israel, that part of your post made no attack on Israel, only on judaism

There's nothing to be offended of, people attack Islam and Christianity all the times here .. this is nothing compared to those attacks I don't even see any harsh criticism of judaism.

I have rarely seen any post in Israel-Pales thread that actually addresses the problem. There are either pro-Israel who are only concerned about proving that Israel has always been right, verbally degrading other culture and the religion and then there are pro-Palestine who are only concerned about proving that Israel is wrong and attacking Israel for being a racist nation or what not.

 

[nobahar]

I have rarely seen any post in Israel-Pales thread that actually addresses the problem. There are either pro-Israel who are only concerned about proving that Israel has always been right, verbally degrading other culture and the religion and then there are pro-Palestine who are only concerned about proving that Israel is wrong and attacking Israel for being a racist nation or what not.

I apologised for not addressing Hurkyl's question! I just wanted to address Mege's post.

 

[Proton Soup]

There's nothing to be offended of, people attack Islam and Christianity all the times here .. this is nothing compared to those attacks I don't even see any harsh criticism of judaism.

I have rarely seen any post in Israel-Pales thread that actually addresses the problem. There are either pro-Israel who are only concerned about proving that Israel has always been right, verbally degrading other culture and the religion and then there are pro-Palestine who are only concerned about proving that Israel is wrong and attacking Israel for being a racist nation or what not.

well, you accused me of being biased in this thread. but the facts agree with me. the fact is that israel has been expansionist since its inception. now, if I've got a bias, then i'd say my bias is that this has to stop. and so, i support a two-state solution at '67 borders (with agreeable swaps if you like). i don't see how this is anti-israel.

and yes, you are correct, attacks on muslims and christians here is routine.

 

[mege]

(Note - I've tried to proofread this a few times, but it's late. Sorry for any simple mistakes ahead of time)

First: The OP's citations (from HRW and the reposts from HRW on Amnesty esspecially) are from anti-semetic organizations - even Robert Bernstein (HRW's founder) thinks that http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/opinion/20bernstein.html?_r=1&em"). On HRW specifically Berstein says:

Human Rights Watch has lost critical perspective on a conflict in which Israel has been repeatedly attacked by Hamas and Hezbollah, organizations that go after Israeli citizens and use their own people as human shields. These groups are supported by the government of Iran, which has openly declared its intention not just to destroy Israel but to murder Jews everywhere. This incitement to genocide is a violation of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Leaders of Human Rights Watch know that Hamas and Hezbollah chose to wage war from densely populated areas, deliberately transforming neighborhoods into battlefields. They know that more and better arms are flowing into both Gaza and Lebanon and are poised to strike again. And they know that this militancy continues to deprive Palestinians of any chance for the peaceful and productive life they deserve. Yet Israel, the repeated victim of aggression, faces the brunt of Human Rights Watch’s criticism.

We could go back and forth on this - but lots of international organizations that are well published have their own bias. Plastering dozens of links from biased sources doesn't do much to advance the discussion, except to show that there are significantly different opinions in the world on the situation. (more on this later)

Second: When I talk Judeo-Christian/Western beliefs, I am not talking about taking the Bible or Torah or any other text verbatium and using it as law or practice (it could be argued that the Ten Commandments form the basis for the US and most Western legal system, however I want to approach it more humanistically for this discussion). There is a fundamental set of beliefs which are entrenched in the Western mindset (I use Western and Judeo-Christian interchangably). These beliefs are stark when contrasted to the Islamic-ran countries under Shariah law in the Middle East. This difference is most obvious because modern Western/JC cultures do NOT enforce their hard-line religious Orthodoxy as law. Your point about homosexuality is perfect for this (even though you presented it as a red herring given the context - in practice most American Jews are poltically very closely aligned with the Democratic party which counter your claims). There are lots of quotes from scriptures that could be taken a wrong way. That type of anti-homosexuality you quoted is not practiced, except by the most extreme christian idealists. Luckilly, there are not these extreme religious ran governments like there are with Islam. JC beliefs that every life is sacred overrides any of the dogma and orthodoxy that one might quote. Shariah law does not hold these same beliefs on life to be true. Muslims are superior to heathens under LAW in countries like Iran and Syria (and to a less extreme extent KSA). The value that we put on life is a JC belief (not exclusively I'm aware), and it creates a basis that we make all other decisions on. Given the extreme control of the press that Syria and Iran have, think about how many stories of some attrocity of justice do you hear about every week? Some individual in those counties is locked away, murdered, or harshly silenced. Imagine how many aren't getting out? Back to Israel, even conceeding a few hiccups viciously portrayed by the biased reports, is that any different than a country at war would act? Even though Israel is on 'enemy' terms with nearly every Middle Eastern country, they are flourishing economically and intellectually. Dissent is allowed in Israel.

I go back to my post originally with the statement that Israel could have 'kept on going' and swept the rest of the sub-continent but didn't. Are those truly actions of a country bent on dominating the whole region or is that self-preservation kicking in and a reverence for life of all sorts?

This fundamental difference between how we view life is the cornerstone of how I define Judeo-Christian/Western beliefs (not the tit-tat orthodoxy). Nearly every Western legal system is founded on that premise and attempts to hold every life to the most sacred of standards. This extends beyond just legal punishments and the basis of our civilized societies. While the west is not full of 'Christian' countries per-se (although many European countries still have state Churchs), culturally we still align with the basic tenants of Judeo-Christian beliefs.

Finally regarding the point of belief systems, I do know that Israel is not a secular state. They are a Jewish state, but even with those beliefs at their core - Arabic is an official state language, and other religions enjoy the same freedoms as the Jewish folk. I'd wager that more Jewish Israelis are educated on the Muslim and Christian faiths than Christian Americans are about their Abrahamic brethren. (and knowing is 1/2 the battle!)

Third (and lastly): I find these discussions ultimately interesting because of the mutually exclusive nature of the different perspectives. The difference in view point are for different reasons that are often incompatable so the differences never get resolved (see nearly every moral debate in the US - legality of abortion being the primary example). This is the different value systems I talked about in my second point at work, but under different pretenses. Obviously we probably all hold life to a high standard relative to some, but we're evaluating the merits of culture (our own versus another) to different standards. Is it as basic as exceptionalism versus apologist, where our self-confidence in our culture differ? I'm not sure.