Is the Shroud of Turin's Newly Discovered Second Image Authentic?

[Ivan Seeking]

The shroud of turin was widely dismissed as a medieval forgery after radiocarbon tests in 1988 dated it to the 13th or 14th century. Now a growing body of evidence is calling for reassessment of the shroud, which is kept in Turin, Italy.

The latest item comes from the London-based Journal of Optics, published by the Institute of Physics. Two scientists from the University of Padua, Giulio Fanti and Roberto Maggiolo, report in the journal's April edition the discovery of a heretofore-undetected reverse image on the shroud. They say the smaller, fainter image on the back of the cloth depicts just the face and hands. And it's a superficial image, adhering only to the outermost fibers, just like the image on the front. "It is extremely difficult to make a fake with these features," Fanti writes.

The fact that their study was published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal is significant and "a step in the right direction" [continued]

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/012/32.56.html

 

[kcballer21]

I find it hilarious that ChristianityToday would hold the view that: "The fact that their study was published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal is significant and 'a step in the right direction,'" when you can type "evolution" in the search box and find out how Intelligent Design is poised to replace evolution in the classroom.

Anyway, I'm curious to read about this issue in the upcoming skeptical publications. The shroud is simply an issue that will not die.

"It is extremely difficult to make a fake with these features," Fanti writes.

Could Fanti manage to do so?

 

[selfAdjoint]

find it hilarious that ChristianityToday would hold the view that: "The fact that their study was published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal is significant and 'a step in the right direction,'" when you can type "evolution" in the search box and find out how Intelligent Design is poised to replace evolution in the classroom

You have to distinguish different kinds of Christians. The Shroud is a Catholic relic, and the Pope supports evolution.

 

[kcballer21]

You have to distinguish different kinds of Christians. The Shroud is a Catholic relic, and the Pope supports evolution.

You're right, kind of. The Pope doesn't necessarily 'support' evolution; he has been quoted has saying it is more than a hypothesis, that it is in some way scientifically validated. The Pope feels that if evolution were true it wouldn't violate the basic beliefs of the catholic church; In my opinion, he probably doesn't care if it's true either way. I found an interesting article about this from google: Evolution and the Pope
Note this quote at the bottom: "When a philosophically or theology unsound version of evolution is proposed, it should be challenged on those grounds. But when a view of evolution doesn't contradict sound philosophy or theology-when it is compatible with what John Paul II calls "the truth about man"-then its validity depends on the scientific evidence. Ultimately, the evidence will either corroborate or undermine the theory. Those who accept or reject such a theory should do so on scientific, rather than philosophical or theological, grounds."
Now, I don't know exactly what that means but it does sound a little more reasonable than the view of say, the evangelicals. There is one thing I don't get; at what point in the evolutionary process did humans obtain a soul?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We're getting off topic here.

 

[rayjohn01]

To Kc
There is only ONE type of Christian that is one who believes in the actions and tenets of Christ -- you also have to believe that this person actually existed -- which is probably unproveable - but you can subscribe to the actions , if you wish -- I think that they are pretty good.
Evolution is a very emotive word it sort of implies 'better' but the facts are that various species have outlived 'man' for millions of years -- and probably will in the future -- Long live the cockroach.
If man aspires to be 'better' then HE/She will have to prove that -- an interesting contest , but I think bacteria have the edge -- well that is if you discount planets moons Galaxies and so on.
Humans are just basically arrogant and they have not learned a thing -- well could be they never will -- WHY should they -- just because they think they have some sort of right ?
I find it really curious ( in a really stupid way ) that the mentors here are posting pre assembled answers to legitimate questions --- just shows HOW MUCH they really care ! ( maybe they get PAID )
See you will NOT find truth just by asking others -- there is NO guarantee that they know either -- even tho' they would not like to admit this -- NO-One does
The 'truth ' can only lie in ones -self , it is YOUR life , and you are distinct, virtually cut off from all and anything -- except -- perhaps your maker -- for sure you did not make yourself -- nor can you change one whit of yourself --
It is a real dilemma -- what should we believe ?.
Well finally it's just up to you -- no -one else can say -- and no-one else knows the truth. SEE you have free rein to do as you see fit -- you are a GOD -- but like all children you have to gradually grow up -- you cannot expect to understand every thing at one instant -- we do not expect our children to do that, then why should we expect that of anybody else including ourselves. ?
WE ARE CHILDREN -- but wanton ones at that.
Ray -- Have a great Holiday whatever your beliefs

 

[Ivan Seeking]

maybe they get PAID

No, they don't.

This thread is about the shroud and science, nothing else. From here on, any off-topic posts will be deleted.

 

[cronxeh]

you guys should see a program on National Geographic Shroud. Basically they debunked this whole story completely.

Oh and Da Vinci is a genius. Thats all Ima say.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I didn't see any transcripts available. Maybe more later.

Riddles Of The Dead: Leonardo: The Man Behind The Shroud
The Shroud of Turin: sacred Christian relic or clever fake? If it was created, it must have been by someone with extraordinary skills. The evidence points to one of the greatest geniuses ever to have lived: Was Leonardo da Vinci the Man Behind the Shroud of Turin? Worshipped by millions as the authentic burial cloth of Jesus, the Shroud of Turin is one of the most sacred and controversial relics of the Christian world. The image of Christ, believers say, was burned into the cloth by the intense heat of resurrection. In the Italian city of Turin, behind the Cathedral that holds the Shroud, the Library of the Palazzo Reale contains a self-portrait of Leonardo da Vinci. Is there a link between these two remarkable images?

http://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/front_new/watch/default.asp?mode=program&tdatetime=12%2F5%2F2004+9%3A30%3A00+PM

 

[Ivan Seeking]

More from National Geographic

Jesus' Shroud? Recent Findings Renew Authenticity Debate

Bijal P. Trivedi
National Geographic Channel
April 9, 2004


The Shroud of Turin—believed by many to be the burial cloth of Jesus and one of the most venerated relics of the Christian church—was declared a fake in 1988 by three independent scientific institutions. Yet interest in the cloth has remained intense, and new science suggests the shroud deserves another look.

Read the full story >> [continued]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0409_040409_TVJesusshroud.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

...Rogers also found evidence of a "splice site," suggesting that this patch of the cloth had not only been dyed but also repaired and rewoven. He suspects that the dye and repair job was probably done in the Near East during the Middle Ages, coinciding with the carbon dating results.

"The 1988 date was undoubtedly accurate for the sample supplied. However, there is no question that the radiocarbon sampling area has a completely different chemical composition than the main part of the shroud," Rogers said. "The published date for the sample was not the time at which the cloth was produced."...

Will the drama never end?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Turin shroud older than thought

...Published in the 20 January issue of Thermochimica Acta, a peer-reviewed chemistry journal, the study dismisses the results of the 1988 carbon-14 dating.

..."As unlikely as it seems, the sample used to test the age of the shroud in 1988 was taken from a rewoven area of the shroud. Indeed, the patch was very carefully made. The yarn has the same twist as the main part of the cloth, and it was stained to match the colour," says Raymond Rogers, a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratories and former member of the STURP (Shroud of Turin Research Project) team of US scientists that examined the Shroud in 1978.

..."A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300 and 3000 years old," Rogers writes... [continued]

http://abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1289491.htm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

A nice review of the Shroud of Turin Research Project.
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/Shroud-Turin-STURP3.htm

 

[Dayle Record]

Someone was asking what we should believe in. Nothing would be the proper answer to that question.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Someone was asking what we should believe in. Nothing would be the proper answer to that question.

Tough to do. Some believe only in their own consiousness. Others believe only in the outside world. Even Decartes trying to doubt everything wound up believing that he doubted!

 

[selfAdjoint]

Someone was asking what we should believe in. Nothing would be the proper answer to that question.

Tough to do. Some believe only in their own consiousness. Others believe only in the outside world. Even Decartes trying to doubt everything wound up believing that he doubted!

 

[Ian]

This 'shroud' you are all discussing could not have anything to do with Jesus Christ.
The Bible tells us that His body was bathed in an excessive amount of spices and resins and then wrapped in linen cloth.
There is no evidence of any of that on the Turin shroud.
There were also two peices of cloth according to the Bible; these were found lying in separate places after His ressurection, but the shroud of Turin is one piece.
Of course it's a forgery.

Thread closed. Continued here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1214833
Ivan