Tennessee to teach the controversy

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A new bill in Tennessee is raising concerns about the potential for teaching non-scientific theories in science classrooms under the guise of "teaching the controversy." The bill aims to allow discussions of "scientific controversies," which critics argue could open the door for the inclusion of creationism and intelligent design in education, despite the bill's language suggesting it only permits real scientific theories. Opponents fear that this could misrepresent established scientific concepts like evolution and climate change as controversial, undermining their scientific validity. The discussion highlights a broader trend in several states where similar legislation is being proposed, reflecting a strategic shift in the anti-science movement from outright bans on evolution to creating false equivalencies between scientific and non-scientific ideas. The bill's implications for the separation of church and state are also questioned, particularly if educators use creationist arguments without explicitly mentioning a creator. Overall, the legislation is seen as a threat to science education and a potential source of confusion for students regarding accepted scientific principles.
SixNein
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Unfortunately, my home state is once again attacking science with a bill designed to teach the controversy. The full text is here:


Here is clip I could find of the floor of the house committee discussing the house bill (pass last year):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJD59bzg90w So I want to make two points:
1. People should watch for this in their own (especially republican controlled) states.
2. I'm uncertain how the courts would go if it is challenged. On one hand, they are stopping short of directly promoting creationism; however, on the other hand, they are intentionally opening that door in hopes that some teachers will go through.

This method may have a chance of sticking.
 
Science news on Phys.org
The bill, as was read, requires that it has to be real scientific theory, which would exclude intelligent design, creationism, etc... Do these people think that religious myth is science? The way the bill is worded is different from what was said by the speaker. It sounds like they want to alow teaching of non-scientific "controversies", as in BS.

The actual bill. http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/107/Bill/HB0368.pdf

The way the bill reads "scientific controversies" would eliminate teaching non-scientific nonsense such as ID, creationism, etc... ID may be controversial, but it's not scientific.
 
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Evo said:
The bill requires that it has to be real scientific theory, which would exclude intelligent design, creationism, etc... What is wrong with the bill?

The main problem is that it reduces science to an opinion, and it would make some areas of science appear controversial when they are not. But here is a better description:

"We feel that the wording of this legislation clearly allows non-scientific explanations for topics such as biological evolution, the chemical origins of life, global warming and human cloning to be introduced into the science classroom," adding, "Concepts like evolution and climate change should not be misrepresented as controversial or needing of special evaluation. Instead, they should be presented as scientific explanations for events and processes that are supported by experimentation, logical analysis, and evidence-based revision based on detectable and measurable data."

http://ncse.com/news/2012/03/nabt-opposes-tennessees-monkey-bills-007265
 
I would say scientific controversy means that it has to be accepted science to begin with, which religious nonsense is not, IMO. Better to kill it, but I don't see how if it was challenged in court that it could stand up. Science isn't whatever someone thinks, it has to hold to scientific standards. But of course the people that wrote that don't know that, IMO.
 
Evo said:
The bill, as was read, requires that it has to be real scientific theory, which would exclude intelligent design, creationism, etc... Do these people think that religious myth is science? The way the bill is worded is different from what was said by the speaker. It sounds like they want to alow teaching of non-scientific "controversies", as in BS.

The actual bill. http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/107/Bill/HB0368.pdf

The way the bill reads "scientific controversies" would eliminate teaching non-scientific nonsense such as ID, creationism, etc... ID may be controversial, but it's not scientific.

My concern is that it would allow teachers to use creationist arguments as long as they stop short of saying the word creator.

When I was in school, I had teachers make such arguments while stopping short of saying creator. This bill would essentially give them cover.
 
SixNein said:
My concern is that it would allow teachers to use creationist arguments as long as they stop short of saying the word creator.

When I was in school, I had teachers make such arguments while stopping short of saying creator. This bill would essentially give them cover.
It's frightening. We had similar problems with the Kansas school board but I thought the ruling in Dover quashed this nonsense?
 
Evo said:
It's frightening. We had similar problems with the Kansas school board but I thought the ruling in Dover quashed this nonsense?

If they stop short of endorsing a creator, does the separation of church and state still apply?
 
SixNein said:
If they stop short of endorsing a creator, does the separation of church and state still apply?
It really comes down to does it meet scientific criteria?

Advocates of intelligent design seek to keep God and the Bible out of the discussion, and present intelligent design in the language of science as though it were a scientific hypothesis.[n 17][n 19] For a theory to qualify as scientific,[n 22][103][n 23] it is expected to be:

Consistent

Parsimonious (sparing in its proposed entities or explanations, see Occam's Razor)

Useful (describes and explains observed phenomena, and can be used predictively)

Empirically testable and falsifiable (see Falsifiability)

Based on multiple observations, often in the form of controlled, repeated experiments

Correctable and dynamic (modified in the light of observations that do not support it)

Progressive (refines previous theories)

Provisional or tentative (is open to experimental checking, and does not assert certainty)

For any theory, hypothesis or conjecture to be considered scientific, it must meet most, and ideally all, of these criteria. The fewer criteria are met, the less scientific it is; and if it meets only a few or none at all, then it cannot be treated as scientific in any meaningful sense of the word. Typical objections to defining intelligent design as science are that it lacks consistency,[104] violates the principle of parsimony,[n 24] is not scientifically useful,[n 25] is not falsifiable,[n 26] is not empirically testable,[n 27] and is not correctable, dynamic, provisional or progressive.[n 28][n 29][n 30]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design#Criticism
 
Evo said:
It really comes down to does it meet scientific criteria?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design#Criticism

But there is no constitutional protection for science education itself.

Example: A teacher presents evolution to the class. Teacher: "At least that is what some people believe." Teacher: "But many doubt it because there are gaps in the fossil record, there is too much complexity for evolution to explain, and it just too mathematically improbable to be true."

[Students leave class thinking evolution is a very weak opinion held by idiots]
 
  • #10
SixNein said:
But there is no constitutional protection for science education itself.

Example: A teacher presents evolution to the class. Teacher: "At least that is what some people believe." Teacher: "But many doubt it because there are gaps in the fossil record, there is too much complexity for evolution to explain, and it just too mathematically improbable to be true."

[Students leave class thinking evolution is a very weak opinion held by idiots]
Yeah, it needs to be shot down.
 
  • #11
The speaker who voiced his opinion after Ms. Miller at the 9 minute mark is a moron. I don't care if he's offended or not.
... I take offense with people coming into this body... and presenting your opinion, which is exactly what it is and it's as good as my opinion, as though just because you have prefixes and suffixes on your name that all of a sudden, you're some type of standard. And I find that offensive.
The logic employed by the other speakers is equally stunning.
...if evolution is proved untrue, people might have to believe that the Earth actually was created like the bible says.
...I think there is a need for the bill because... our educational system somewhat disagrees with evolution and they're really not free to question that. Professors and teachers, if they disagree with evolution, they run the risk of losing their job.
Well, I'm glad this isn't about teaching creationism in the schools. :rolleyes:

Mr. 9 minute mark also claimed that the science behind the atom (i.e. Atomic Theory) was a fact and differed from evolution because evolution is just a theory. Let's also just ignore the fact that the fossil record dates are based on carbon dating which comes from Atomic Theory.
HeadBanger.gif


@SixNein: I feel your pain. I lived in Louisville, Kentucky for 6 years. There was one section of town that I lived in for a while that didn't have a single bookstore other than the two religious bookstores that were in that area.
 
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  • #12
Maine has a Tea-Party governor and a Republican House, and right now they are trying to strip funding from public schools to support church-based schools. I hope we can fend that off, but the attack on real public education and science is real, even in this rural back-water.

This is a "neutral" (watered-down) description of the bill in question. There is no investigative reporting or political analysis in our newspapers here, anymore. In fact, most of the content of the Central Maine Morning Sentinel is bought from the AP or other news feeds.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/par...ersing-a-longtime-funding-ban_2012-02-12.html
 
  • #13
Borg said:
The speaker who voiced his opinion after Ms. Miller at the 9 minute mark is a moron. I don't care if he's offended or not.

The logic employed by the other speakers is equally stunning.

Well, I'm glad this isn't about teaching creationism in the schools. :rolleyes:

Mr. 9 minute mark also claimed that the science behind the atom (i.e. Atomic Theory) was a fact and differed from evolution because evolution is just a theory. Let's also just ignore the fact that the fossil record dates are based on carbon dating which comes from Atomic Theory.
HeadBanger.gif


@SixNein: I feel your pain. I lived in Louisville, Kentucky for 6 years. There was one section of town that I lived in for a while that didn't have a single bookstore other than the two religious bookstores that were in that area.
Thank goodness I didn't watch more than the introduction. I'd have had a stroke.
 
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  • #15
Oklahoma has passed a similar version to the TN bill:

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf/2011-12 ENGR/hB/HB1551 ENGR.DOC

In addition to the above, the NY times had some interesting commentary on the subject:

The difference between the Butler Act and this new legislation encapsulates the change in the anti-science crowd’s strategy, from outright bans on disseminating factual information to fake controversy and false equivalencies. They’re learned to manufacture doubt and pretend it invalidates scientific consensus. It’s a surprisingly effective tactic.

http://loyalopposition.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/the-tennessee-monkey-bill/
 
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  • #16
SixNein said:
Oklahoma has passed a similar version to the TN bill
If I recall correctly (from the video in the OP, about 2/3rds of the way in perhaps), one of the legislators mentions that there are over a dozen (don't recall the exact number that he mentions) states with a similar law in their books.
 
  • #17
Whether it's because of the vast amounts of alcohol that I've ingested today, or the fact that I'm still not entirely fluent in "Yank-speak", I actually cannot find anything wrong with the proposal as written. In fact, I rather admire it. It should, once and for all, relegate the Jesus freaks to the cellar where they belong.
As for that woman in the video... :eek: How can anyone who is so horrendously and embarrassingly useless at public speaking be a professor?! Don't they have to communicate with their students?
 
  • #18
Gokul43201 said:
If I recall correctly (from the video in the OP, about 2/3rds of the way in perhaps), one of the legislators mentions that there are over a dozen (don't recall the exact number that he mentions) states with a similar law in their books.

To my knowledge, there exists one other state: Louisiana Science Education Act

"They are derived from language originally drafted for the Santorum Amendment, in the United States Senate. As of August 2011, the Louisiana Science Education Act is the only such bill to have successfully passed into law."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Freedom_bills
 
  • #19
That's just sick. As for my opinion of Santorum, though, Google him. The definition is very informative. Then submit his name for membership in the club mentioned in this thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=589039
With apologies, I still don't know how to make a link inside a text.
 
  • #20
Danger said:
That's just sick. As for my opinion of Santorum, though, Google him. The definition is very informative. Then submit his name for membership in the club mentioned in this thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=589039
With apologies, I still don't know how to make a link inside a text.
Are you sure that your alcohol consumption isn't causing you to cross-post?
 
  • #21
Danger said:
Whether it's because of the vast amounts of alcohol that I've ingested today, or the fact that I'm still not entirely fluent in "Yank-speak", I actually cannot find anything wrong with the proposal as written. In fact, I rather admire it. It should, once and for all, relegate the Jesus freaks to the cellar where they belong.
As for that woman in the video... :eek: How can anyone who is so horrendously and embarrassingly useless at public speaking be a professor?! Don't they have to communicate with their students?
The propsoal as written has nothing to do with the "interpretation" given in the video.

Yes, that woman was an embarrassment to the academic sector, which is why I had to stop watching it and missed the rest of the BS. I guess just watch the video to see the psycho way they intend to use the bill. Although I don't see how can twist that bill to their purpose unless the entire schoolboard are a bunch of crooks. IMO to all above.
 
  • #22
Evo said:
The proposal as written has nothing to do with the "interpretation" given in the video.

Yes, that woman was an embarrassment to the academic sector, which is why I had to stop watching it and missed the rest of the BS. I guess just watch the video to see the psycho way they intend to use the bill. Although I don't see how they can twist that bill to their purpose unless the entire schoolboard are a bunch of crooks. IMO to all above.

So you agree with: crackpot link deleted
 
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  • #23
Evo said:
I had to stop watching it and missed the rest of the BS.

I didn't actually catch any of the BS in that "speech" either, so I don't know what the outcome was. I watched her for about a minute and a half, maybe two, and then had to shut it off for the sake of my own sanity. I was so far behind that if I had left it on I would still be trying to figure it out next week. She was so abjectly incoherent that when she finished one sentence I was still trying to decipher what she had said 2 sentences back. Unfortunately, that was a logarithmic scale. In another few seconds, I would have been 2 paragraphs behind. A couple more and it would have been pages. That discourages me greatly, because she was introduced as being a scientist.
 
  • #24
Danger said:
I didn't actually catch any of the BS in that "speech" either, so I don't know what the outcome was. I watched her for about a minute and a half, maybe two, and then had to shut it off for the sake of my own sanity. I was so far behind that if I had left it on I would still be trying to figure it out next week. She was so abjectly incoherent that when she finished one sentence I was still trying to decipher what she had said 2 sentences back. Unfortunately, that was a logarithmic scale. In another few seconds, I would have been 2 paragraphs behind. A couple more and it would have been pages. That discourages me greatly, because she was introduced as being a scientist.
It was embarrassing. The academic side should have picked a better speaker, because this is too important of an issue to let someone incapable of public speaking to present the cause for scientific reality.
 
  • #25
Evo said:
I'm saying that the law "as it's written" does not match what the crank board of education thinks it means.
That's the beauty of it; after it's passed, they're screwed. :devil:
 
  • #26
SixNein said:
So you agree with: crackpot link deleted


Sorry, but that's a crackpot site. No, I'm saying that the law "as it's written" does not match what the crank board of education thinks it means.

If you read the actual copy of the law that I posted, it doesn't support their intended use. But if it the board of education thinks it does, there is an even more serious problem. Ever heard the term "kangaroo court"?
A kangaroo court is "a mock court in which the principles of law and justice are disregarded or perverted".

IMO to above.
 
  • #27
Borg said:
Are you sure that your alcohol consumption isn't causing you to cross-post?

It's not cross-posting—merely correlation. By definition, santorum and spunk are different only due to the presence or lack thereof of certain chemical and biological byproducts. Either way, it smells the same.

Evo said:
Ever heard the term "kangaroo court"?

Are you telling me that I unjustly executed that kangaroo that I had for lunch?! That does it! I'm going to move to Florida, where you can kill a kangaroo for having dark fur and hopping away from you.
 
  • #28
Danger said:
I didn't actually catch any of the BS in that "speech" either, so I don't know what the outcome was. I watched her for about a minute and a half, maybe two, and then had to shut it off for the sake of my own sanity. I was so far behind that if I had left it on I would still be trying to figure it out next week. She was so abjectly incoherent that when she finished one sentence I was still trying to decipher what she had said 2 sentences back. Unfortunately, that was a logarithmic scale. In another few seconds, I would have been 2 paragraphs behind. A couple more and it would have been pages. That discourages me greatly, because she was introduced as being a scientist.

I confess that I actually skipped past her after a few moments myself. In addition, I don't understand why she was picked. Maybe she was just very nervous?

At any rate, you can also watch the following:
http://tnga.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=196&clip_id=3989&meta_id=73331

It covers the debate leading up to the vote.
 
  • #29
Evo said:
Sorry, but that's a crackpot site. No, I'm saying that the law "as it's written" does not match what the crank board of education thinks it means.

If you read the actual copy of the law that I posted, it doesn't support their intended use. But if it the board of education thinks it does, there is an even more serious problem. Ever heard the term "kangaroo court"?

IMO to above.

I'm not sure I agree. The language of the law was written very very carefully to allow this sort of abuse while also attempting to pass muster by the courts. In the link to the house video I just posted, the sponsor said that "They can't teach creationism from a to z." In other words, they have to stop short of saying creator. If they don't, the courts are sure to knock it down.

In addition, many of their arguments seem to come from the discovery institute. What we call scientific fact isn't what they call scientific fact. They made that point many times on the floor. We have an opinion on what is scientific facts, but they have their own opinion on scientific facts. IE: The controversy is our facts vs their facts.

I would also point out that they changed tenure recently in Tennessee. And teachers will be undergoing evaluations before being granted tenure. I wonder if how they teach science will be a factor.

The centerpiece of the new governor's education agenda, the bill extends the probationary period for new teachers from the current three years to five before tenure can be awarded. It also requires probationary teachers to place in the top two tiers of a new five-tier evaluation system in both their fourth and fifth years of teaching to win tenure.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2011/mar/31/tennessee-legislature-agrees-tougher-tenure-requir/
 
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  • #30
69... you are starting to scare me, dude.
I'm really glad that I don't live in your country, but every day I get more nervous about living beside it.
 
  • #31
Danger said:
69... you are starting to scare me, dude.
I'm really glad that I don't live in your country, but every day I get more nervous about living beside it.
Danger, I might be coming to live with you.
 
  • #32
Evo said:
Danger, I might be coming to live with you.

Please! :-p
I'll send the doggie suit to the cleaners in anticipation of your arrival.
 
  • #33
Danger said:
Please! :-p
I'll send the doggie suit to the cleaners in anticipation of your arrival.
Ooooh, I forgot about the doggie suit!
 
  • #34
This new law (HB368) in Tennessee shows a change in the anti-science movement’s strategy.
In the past it tried to ban the dissemination of factual information.
Now the movement has invented fake controversies and false equivalencies.
It is a blatant attempt to create doubt and pretend that this doubt invalidates scientific consensus.
This new law would elevate creationist theories about human evolution to the same status accorded by most educators to Darwin's research.
This is incompatible with an objective assessment of the vast body of peer-reviewed science.
If this law is allowed to remain in effect the result will be to confuse students.
From the national and the international scientific community’s perspective it is a complete embarrassment.
 
  • #35
I think there's a big underlying problem here - that there are seemingly a large number of high school teachers that would like to (and I think I'm putting this mildly) teach alternative "theories" to evolution and want students to be exposed to "both sides" of the story. As long as there are unqualified teachers, you're not going to get quality teaching. And forcing the teachers to teach stuff they they disbelieve isn't going to make things much better.
 
  • #36
Bobbywhy said:
Now the movement has invented fake controversies and false equivalencies.
It is a blatant attempt to create doubt and pretend that this doubt invalidates scientific consensus.
That is what is so freakin' hilarious about it. These morons were so focused upon closing all of the loopholes that they shot themselves in the foot. If that bill passes as written, the Jesus freaks might just as well go out and commit mass suicide; they are so cooked that you'd have to make soup out of them.
 
  • #37
Gokul43201 said:
I think there's a big underlying problem here - that there are seemingly a large number of high school teachers that would like to (and I think I'm putting this mildly) teach alternative "theories" to evolution and want students to be exposed to "both sides" of the story. As long as there are unqualified teachers, you're not going to get quality teaching. And forcing the teachers to teach stuff they they disbelieve isn't going to make things much better.

I wouldn't be surprised if even some professors in Tennessee desire to teach creationism.

Video Disclaimer: Crackpottery level is quite high (several part video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYit1cfg5Mc
 
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  • #38
Although I am an independent, with two lifetime exceptions I have always voted Republican. If I lived in Tennessee I would have to make some more exceptions.

If politics were a team sport, the Republicans should trade the bible-thumpers for the Gays, Hispanics and a future draft choice.
 
  • #39
SixNein said:
Unfortunately, my home state is once again attacking science with a bill designed to teach the controversy. The full text is here:
Here is clip I could find of the floor of the house committee discussing the house bill (pass last year):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJD59bzg90w So I want to make two points:
1. People should watch for this in their own (especially republican controlled) states.
2. I'm uncertain how the courts would go if it is challenged. On one hand, they are stopping short of directly promoting creationism; however, on the other hand, they are intentionally opening that door in hopes that some teachers will go through.

This method may have a chance of sticking.
From what was explicitly stated wrt the bill, I don't see a problem. So, I wonder, what's the problem? Further, why do they need a bill to explicate that teaching should proceed along scientific and critical thinking lines as this bill seems to be promoting? Or, am I missing something and that isn't what the bill is promoting?
 
  • #40
I read the bill. I haven’t watched the video. There seems to be nothing wrong with the bill. I think there is a way to approach the topic of intelligent design from a historical perspective. This would be beyond the scope of a science course but the idea that everything is created for a purpose is more commonly held then by just those who believe in religion.

There are deeper philosophical questions here beyond science. The idea that everything happens for a reason comes from Natural law which dates back to Aristotle. Additionally when teaching history it should be mentioned that the concept of evolution predates Plato and the recent discovery of genetic switches makes evolution much less continuous and deterministic than conjectured by Darwin.

Evolution doesn’t negate the concept of design if we accept determinism but as Kant observed determinism leaves no room for free choice which would mean that there could be no true moral actions. This is why Kant invited the moral imperatives. Well, Descartes rescued determinism; theories like Quantum mechanics and Chaos Theory have put it in doubt. More recent philosophies such as existentialism have questioned the entire concept of meaning all together.
 
  • #41
John Creighto said:
I read the bill. I haven’t watched the video. There seems to be nothing wrong with the bill. I think there is a way to approach the topic of intelligent design from a historical perspective. This would be beyond the scope of a science course but the idea that everything is created for a purpose is more commonly held then by just those who believe in religion.
Evo has the same take.

IMO, both of you are wrong. You aren't reading between the lines, or reading the history. This is the fourth wave of the religious right's battle against evolution. The first wave, centered not so surprisingly also in Tennessee, attempted to ban the teaching of evolution. This worked for a long time. The Butler Act that was at the root of the 1925 Scopes trial wasn't repealed until 1967.

The second wave was to teach creationism. Unconstitutional. The third wave was to hide creationism in the term "intelligent design". Also unconstitutional. The religious right is getting ever smarter and ever sneakier as its strategy evolves. Now the strategy is to "teach the controversy," even if there is controversy.

This particular front of the battle between evolution and biblical creationism started in 2000 with the Santorum Amendment to the No Child Left Behind Act, written by the high level staff at the Discovery Institute. This amendment proposed that
  1. good science education should prepare students to distinguish the data or testable theories of science from philosophical or religious claims that are made in the name of science; and
  2. where biological evolution is taught, the curriculum should help students to understand why this subject generates so much continuing controversy, and should prepare the students to be informed participants in public discussions regarding the subject.
The first item was a red herring intended to deflect attention from the real meat, which is the second item. What controversy? Evolution is a fact. There is no controversy. This bill existed for one reason: To teach that "evolution is only a theory."

The 2005 Kitzmiller v. Dover case drove a slight wedge into, but not through, the wedge strategy. A couple of noteworthy items about this case: (1) The Discovery Institute attempted to and largely succeeded sabotage the defense. They managed to convince all the key expert witnesses but Behe to withdraw from testifying. (2) The case (intentionally) was not appealed. It is not quite the law of the land. It is the law of the middle district of Pennsylvania. The Discovery Institute did not want this case to become a wedge through their wedge strategy.

The reason for the sabotage and lack of appeal is that the wedge strategy is much sneakier than the Dover school board's blatant attempt to teach intelligent design as a stand-in for creationism. The goal is to first weaken the teaching of evolution, and only after accomplishing this will the movement show its true colors. The first post-Kitzmiller success was in Louisiana, which now has it's so called "Louisiana Science Education Act" http://www.legis.state.la.us/billdata/streamdocument.asp?did=482728 . Here's a snippet:
to create and foster an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that promotes critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning.​
Note the remarkable similarity to the Tennessee bill. More importantly, note the increased sneakiness here. The Santorum Amendment focused solely on evolution, which was a huge red flag to scientists and to aware members of the public. Evolution is a fact. There is no controversy. The newest incarnation adds the origin of life, global warming, and human cloning (WTF?) to the list. The latter is science fiction for now, and if it does become possible, it will be an issue of biomedical ethics, not a scientific controversy. Abiogenesis, the origin of life, is something for which science does not yet have a solid answer. That doesn't mean it won't. Finally, the reason to add global warming was to legitimize this concept of controversial topics in science. In fact, discussions of global warming are verboten at physicsforums.com. It's too controversial. :-p
 
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  • #42
John Creighto said:
I read the bill. I haven’t watched the video. There seems to be nothing wrong with the bill. I think there is a way to approach the topic of intelligent design from a historical perspective. This would be beyond the scope of a science course but the idea that everything is created for a purpose is more commonly held then by just those who believe in religion.

I also would have no problem if taught in a philosophy course. However, the people advocating including creationism or intelligent design definitely would.

The intent is for these concepts to be taught as fact - not just a historical philosophy competing on equal ground with other philosophers.

Teaching DesCartes pretty much shows that just mentioning God doesn't eliminate a subject from being taught in public schools; but DesCartes is taught as an important philosopher - his beliefs aren't taught as fact. (To be honest, I'm not sure if DesCartes is even included in modern public school curriculums.)
 
  • #43
http://timesfreepress.com/news/2012/mar/27/tennessee-evolution-bill-goes-to-bill-haslam/

I'd say that the bill is practically passed at this point.
 
  • #44
BobG said:
I also would have no problem if taught in a philosophy course. However, the people advocating including creationism or intelligent design definitely would.

The intent is for these concepts to be taught as fact - not just a historical philosophy competing on equal ground with other philosophers.

Teaching DesCartes pretty much shows that just mentioning God doesn't eliminate a subject from being taught in public schools; but DesCartes is taught as an important philosopher - his beliefs aren't taught as fact. (To be honest, I'm not sure if DesCartes is even included in modern public school curriculums.)

we talked all about God and religion in my high school philosophy course, though that class (and the rest of the gifted kids program) was a bit of unique situation there. And of course it was only us kids who talked about it, our teacher gave no opinions of her own and only sought to mediate the discussion when it got a little too hot :P
 
  • #45
SHISHKABOB said:
we talked all about God and religion in my high school philosophy course, though that class (and the rest of the gifted kids program) was a bit of unique situation there. And of course it was only us kids who talked about it, our teacher gave no opinions of her own and only sought to mediate the discussion when it got a little too hot :P

I’m curious. Did the kids get emotional about such things? The promise of philosophy is for reason to win over force and passion. Their once was a view called classical liberalism which believed that ideas should compete freely and stand and fall on their own merit. And by free competition I mean in such a way that ideas stand and fall based on reason rather than force and rhetoric. Such fair competition differs from what Hobes or Machiavelli might call competition which is better described as rivalry.


The problem with rivalry is that it doesn’t always result in greatest good for the greatest many. It might not even bring about the greatest individual good. The question of when rivalry is beneficial is a question of game theory and the best example to consider as a starting point is the prisoners dilemma. Rivalry or competition as it is euphemistically called is not prima facie good as we are so often implicitly taught though Social Darwinist messages.


No with regards to the topic at hand; does the divisive rhetoric between Chistians and Atheists in the United States bring about the best result for the country? Is this a good rivalry or a destructive rivalry? Is the attempt on each side trying to indoctrinate students with beliefs (scientifically sound or not) the way to bring about the dialog which will lead to the best social outcome?

By sorting kids based on what facts they can regurgitate and by insisting in the unquestionable authority of these facts we teach kids that what they know is what they are worth and that questioning their beliefs is an attack on the authority by which they derive their worth.

Now I understand that the scientific method is the best method we have come up to with to date, at establish the truth in a scientific set of propositions taken as a whole. However, the there is nothing in the scientific method that tells us if a theory is true. All we know is the method yields the most concise and universal set of axioms to help us predict the behavior of things that are within the domain of the theory. All axioms which aren’t directly provable on their own through induction are in some sense artificial and open the question if an equally good set of axioms could produce the same or better results. Axioms which aren’t directly observable or derivable from observable axioms come from presuppositions rather than observations.
 
  • #46
John Creighto said:
I’m curious. Did the kids get emotional about such things? The promise of philosophy is for reason to win over force and passion. Their once was a view called classical liberalism which believed that ideas should compete freely and stand and fall on their own merit. And by free competition I mean in such a way that ideas stand and fall based on reason rather than force and rhetoric. Such fair competition differs from what Hobes or Machiavelli might call competition which is better described as rivalry.
This isn't about philosophy. It's about intentionally disguising religious myth as science in an effort to teach religion in public schools. Please do not drag this thread off topic.
 
  • #47
I agree with Evo's point. The Tennessee law is a blatant attempt to create "controverseries" where there are none and to create "doubt" about the validity of science. It is a straw man argument, and, IMO, simply another attempt to raise religious myths based on faith to the level of science.
 
  • #48
D H said:
The religious right is getting ever smarter and ever sneakier as its strategy evolves.

I have to laugh when I see this...someone should point out to the creationists that their strategies are "evolving".
 
  • #49
D H said:
Evo has the same take.
No I don't, I have the OPPOSITE take. I believe you haven't read all of my posts and took something I said the wrong way.

I am OPPOSED to trying to sneak religion into public schools under the pretense that it is science.
 
  • #50
daveb said:
I have to laugh when I see this...someone should point out to the creationists that their strategies are "evolving".

I about spit my drink out ^^^.
 
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