Why is the work done counted twice in the 1st law of thermodynamics?

  • Thread starter Thread starter curious bishal
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Law Thermodynamics
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of the first law of thermodynamics, specifically addressing the question of whether work done by a system is counted twice when calculating the final energy of the system. Participants explore the relationship between heat supplied, work done, and changes in energy within a thermodynamic system.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that when calculating the final energy (E2) of a system, adding both heat (q) and work (w) leads to double counting, as the work done is derived from the heat supplied.
  • Another participant clarifies that the confusion may stem from whether w represents work done on the system or work done by the system, noting that these have opposite effects on energy.
  • A similar point is reiterated by another participant, emphasizing that if the system does work (w), the energy decreases by w, leading to a different equation for E2.
  • In response, a participant argues that work is not double-counted, explaining that the energy change is correctly represented as E2 = E1 + q - w, where the net energy change is q - w.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether work is counted twice in the energy calculations. While some argue that it is, others contend that the accounting is correct and does not involve double counting.

Contextual Notes

There is ambiguity regarding the definitions of work done on versus by the system, which affects the interpretation of energy changes. The discussion does not resolve these definitions or the implications for the first law of thermodynamics.

curious bishal
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
On the way to prove 1st law of thermodynamics, you consider a system having initial energy E1. Then, you supply heat q to the system. Some part of the applied heat is used for doing work.
Then, again you consider the final energy (E2) of the system to be:
E2=E1+q+w
where w is the work done.

We all very well know that the work is done by the heat applied. If we add both heat applied and work done to the final energy, isn't the work done counted twice. I mean to say that the heat energy wasted in the work done is also consisted in q so why is there need to add w in the final energy E2.
 
Chemistry news on Phys.org
I think the confusion here comes from whether w is the work done on the system, or the work done by the system. These change the energy by opposite amounts.

If the system is doing work w, the energy of the system decreases by w, so

E2=E1+q-w

Then, if q=w,
E2=E1
 
jfizzix said:
I think the confusion here comes from whether w is the work done on the system, or the work done by the system. These change the energy by opposite amounts.

If the system is doing work w, the energy of the system decreases by w, so

E2=E1+q-w

Then, if q=w,
E2=E1
It doesn't give the solution to my problem. Why is the work done counted double?
 
The work is not double-counted.

If the system starts at energy E1, and you add heat q to it, the energy has changed to amount E1'= E1+q.

If the system then performs work w on its environment, it loses w units of energy, so its energy changes to E2 = E1'-w = E1+q-w.

Though some of the heat is converted into work, that doesn't affect the fact that q units of heat were added, and w units of work are extracted. Thus the net energy change is q-w.
 

Similar threads

Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 46 ·
2
Replies
46
Views
6K
Replies
6
Views
6K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 77 ·
3
Replies
77
Views
6K