A few questions on different spring and mass setups

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around various setups involving springs and masses, focusing on the forces exerted in different configurations, the application of Hooke's law, and methods for determining spring constants. The scope includes theoretical considerations and practical applications related to spring mechanics and simple harmonic motion.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the force exerted by two springs on a mass is F=-\frac{1}{2}kx, suggesting that each spring acts like a single spring when displaced by the same Δx.
  • Another participant agrees with the reasoning, proposing that visualizing the springs connected to a massless block may clarify the situation.
  • Regarding two masses attached to a spring, one participant asks if the force on each mass would be half of what it would be if one end were attached to a wall, to which another participant responds that the forces remain the same as long as the masses are not moving.
  • In the context of a loaded spring example, a participant raises a concern about the application of Hooke's law, questioning whether the system should undergo simple harmonic motion if the spring pushes back with a force equal to the weight applied.
  • Another participant suggests that while the system could be in equilibrium if held perfectly still, practical imperfections in holding would lead to oscillation.
  • Participants discuss the validity of finding the spring constant by dividing the force by displacement, with one noting the importance of careful measurement to avoid errors due to oscillation.
  • Additionally, a method for determining the spring constant through measuring the frequency of oscillation is mentioned as an alternative approach.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application of Hooke's law in dynamic situations and the implications of equilibrium versus oscillation. There is no consensus on the best method for determining the spring constant, as multiple approaches are discussed.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the challenges of measuring displacement accurately during oscillation and the dependence on practical conditions affecting the behavior of the spring-mass systems.

chipotleaway
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One mass, two springs

If you have a mass attached to a spring which is attached to another spring which both have the same spring constant, why is the force exerted by the two springs on the mass F=-\frac{1}{2}kx?

Is it because when you compare it to a single spring displaced by the same Δx, each spring in the two spring system has only been stretched by half, and they act like a single spring? (not too clear on my reasoning)Two masses, one spring
If two masses are attached on either end of a spring and it's stretched, would the force on each mass be half of what it would if the other end were attached to a wall?

Loaded spring
There's an example in my textbook that presents the following situation: you have a traincar of 1000kg on a spring, it's loaded slowly with a weight of 980N which causes the spring to be compressed by some 0.28m and the system then undergoes simple harmonic motion.

To find the spring constant, they divided the force 980N by the displacement, but doesn't Hooke's law relate the force from the spring on whatever's pulling/pushing it? If the spring pushes back with 980N when displaced by 0.28m, then shouldn't the thing be in equilibrium and not undergo SHO at all?

Thanks
 
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chipotleaway said:
One mass, two springs

If you have a mass attached to a spring which is attached to another spring which both have the same spring constant, why is the force exerted by the two springs on the mass F=-\frac{1}{2}kx?

Is it because when you compare it to a single spring displaced by the same Δx, each spring in the two spring system has only been stretched by half, and they act like a single spring? (not too clear on my reasoning)
Yes, that's pretty much right. It may be easier to imagine that the two springs are connected to either end of a massless block instead of directly connected; then you can continue thinking about them as two separate springs each with their own stretched length.

Two masses, one spring
If two masses are attached on either end of a spring and it's stretched, would the force on each mass be half of what it would if the other end were attached to a wall?
No. As long as the two masses aren't moving the force they're exerting on the spring, and therefore the force the spring is exerting on them, is the same as that of an unmoving wall. (This is also the answer if one or both masses are allowed to move - the only difference is that the stretch of the spring and hence the forces will change over time as the masses move)
Loaded spring
There's an example in my textbook that presents the following situation: you have a traincar of 1000kg on a spring, it's loaded slowly with a weight of 980N which causes the spring to be compressed by some 0.28m and the system then undergoes simple harmonic motion.

To find the spring constant, they divided the force 980N by the displacement, but doesn't Hooke's law relate the force from the spring on whatever's pulling/pushing it? If the spring pushes back with 980N when displaced by 0.28m, then shouldn't the thing be in equilibrium and not undergo SHO at all?

If you could push it down exactly .28 meters and then hold it exactly perfectly still while you let go of it then it would be in equilibrium and not oscillate, just as you say. In practice no one has hands that steady - you'll let go of it a bit too high or a bit too low, or give it just a teeny extra push, and that will set it to harmonic oscillation.
 
Thanks. For the third one, I really wanted to know how valid it was to find the spring constant that way
 
chipotleaway said:
Thanks. For the third one, I really wanted to know how valid it was to find the spring constant that way

It's a valid method, as long as you're careful not to let the inevitable oscillation throw off your distance measurement. Waiting for the oscillation to die down might be the easiest way of doing this.

As an aside, another way of finding a spring constant is to deliberately start the thing oscillating, then measure the frequency of the oscillation.
 

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