Does Einstein's Theory of Relativity Predict Dark Matter?

AI Thread Summary
Einstein's General Theory of Relativity (GR) does not predict dark matter but rather provides a framework that can lead to different interpretations of galactic dynamics compared to Newtonian mechanics. Both theories yield similar orbital velocity calculations for stars, but discrepancies arise in how they interpret the need for dark matter to explain observed phenomena. The discussion highlights that while GR and Newtonian physics are generally consistent at low velocities, the nuances of GR could potentially alter conclusions about dark matter if significant relativistic effects were involved. However, current evidence suggests that these effects are negligible in the context of galaxy rotation, reinforcing the dark matter hypothesis. The conversation emphasizes the importance of rigorous scientific inquiry and the ongoing debate regarding the validity of dark matter theories.
RCulling
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I know that Newtonian mechanics predicts dark matter due the the fact that the sun (and other stars) is orbiting around the centre of the galaxy much faster than expected

But i was just wondering if Einstiens general theory of relativity predicted this aswell?
Does it "say" there is as much dark matter as Newtons theory?
or are they about the same?

Just wondering
Thanks : )
 
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They don't "predict" dark matter... they predict a certain result, which does not match what people observe. So people have come up with the idea that there must be hidden matter so make our observations fit the equations. The other possibility is that there is no dark matter and the equations are not perfect yet.

However there is some other evidence for DM besides just the velocity of stars on the edges of galaxies.
 
Do the 2 theories calculate the same orbiting velocties?
i.e. as a result of having the same orbital velocities conclude that there is the same amount of DM in the universe (The Galaxy)?
 
RCulling said:
i was just wondering if Einstiens general theory of relativity predicted this aswell?
Does it "say" there is as much dark matter as Newtons theory?

You probably want to look at http://www2.phys.canterbury.ac.nz/~dlw24/" 's work:
The amount of non-baryonic dark matter relative to baryonic matter is decreased, but still significant. Ratios of 3:1 non-baryonic to baryonic matter are typically found as a best fit, for cosmological solutions using boundary conditions consistent with the CMB anisotropies and primordial inflation.
 
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Oh this is a prof from my uni .. Geuss i should go talk to him :O
Thank you guys
 
Do the 2 theories calculate the same orbiting velocties?
Yes. Wiltshire's work has nothing to do with that.
 
Thanks Ich.. i was looking for ages through his papers and journals at uni and couldn't find anything

Cheers
 
Wow - quick reply. I had to google for cesiumfrog's http://www2.phys.canterbury.ac.nz/~dlw24/universe/summary.html" , and it's about something completely different, and very speculative, too.
Gravity in Galaxies is relatively weak, so it doesn't matter for all practical purposes whether you use GR or the Newtonian approximation. Except that the latter is much easier to apply.
 
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RCulling said:
Oh this is a prof from my uni .. Geuss i should go talk to him
That's a great idea! Please do and tell us what you learn.

Ich said:
Wiltshire's work has nothing to do with that.
The OP's question was to what extent does the inferred dark matter ratio depend on whether the observational data (galactic luminosity and redshift curves) are interpreted under the framework of Newtonian physics or GR. Ich, can you site other sources that have addressed this question? The fact is that there has been a difficulty in identifying the theoretically correct averaging procedure to describe grainy matter distributions in GR properly.

Ich said:
it's about something completely different, and very speculative, too.
Gravity in Galaxies is relatively weak, so it doesn't matter for all practical purposes whether you use GR or the Newtonian approximation.
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the Newtonian approximation does not make any relevant practical difference from GR here?
 
  • #10
Ich, can you site other sources that have addressed this question?
There has been a paper a few years ago which claimed a difference between GR and Newtonian analysis. It has been shown to be errorneous. I forgot both the paper and the replies, maybe someone else remembers it?
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the Newtonian approximation does not make any relevant practical difference from GR here?
Sure. The total mass of a galaxy is ~ 5*10^11 Msun, with a Schwarzschild radius of ~0.1 Ly. So we're talking about a potential of order ~10-6 to 10^-5. OTOH, we have velocity measurements with an accuracy of order ~0.1. No way for GR to produce significant corrections.
 
  • #11
cesiumfrog said:
That's a great idea! Please do and tell us what you learn.

I couldn't get hold of him, he's vbusy (which makes sense :P )
But, i read his journals and papers in the library and couldn't find anything referring to this? Not to say he didn't as all his journals weren't there.. I'm not sure.. Hopefully he will be my PhD supervisor, when i answer this question tehehe

So I will let you know, when i solve it xD
 
  • #12
cesiumfrog said:
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the Newtonian approximation does not make any relevant practical difference from GR here?
To add to what Ich already gave:

The orbital velocities of stars, clusters, and satellite galaxies about a central galaxy should be tiny. Instead, they are just small (compared to c). For example, NGC3198 has orbital velocities that are about 150 km/s from 4 to 30 kpc from the central core. 150 km/s is 0.0005 c, which is too small for any significant relativistic effects to be involved.
 
  • #13
D H said:
150 km/s is 0.0005 c, which is too small for any significant relativistic effects to be involved.

When you put it that way, I understand
Thank you :)
 
  • #14
Compelling evidence for dark matter is provided by the bullet cluster papers. That is about as good as observational evidence gets. Zwicky noticed the missing mass problem almost a century ago. Virial theory confirmed his suspicions. MOND is merely a drive by shooting victim. Dark matter is not going away any time soon.
 
  • #15
Ich said:
The total mass of a galaxy is ~ 5*10^11 Msun, with a Schwarzschild radius of ~0.1 Ly. So we're talking about a potential of order ~10-6 to 10^-5. OTOH, we have velocity measurements with an accuracy of order ~0.1. No way for GR to produce significant corrections.
D H said:
150 km/s is 0.0005 c, which is too small for any significant relativistic effects to be involved.
Chronos said:
Dark matter is not going away any time soon.

Can any of you experts tell me the correct way to use GR to model a galaxy? Obviously one does not use a Schwazschild metric except in a trivial worst approximation, since that would treat the bulk of the galaxy as a vacuum. Since GR is nonlinear, we know that the field of two stars is not quite simply the sum of the individual fields of either star in isolation. Do any of you know how much difference this makes? Have any of you seen the calculation attempted?

Isn't it obvious to every thinking person that one will arrive at different numbers for the quantity of dark matter depending on whether one interprets that data using one theoretical framework or another subtly nonequivalent framework? So how is it invalid (nay, threatening) to investigate how much those numbers differ? You know, actually bothering to check quantitatively how good the approximation is? I don't think performing such exercises warrants the label "speculative", if anything then "speculative" would be asserting a particular outcome of such exercises without bothering to have anyone perform them carefully. I'm certainly not claiming that Newtonian physics is a terrible approximation: the papers I've seen only reported about a factor of 2 discrepancy, which should be perceived as no threat to the dark matter dogmatists. I'm only advocating placing more weight on nuanced application of scientific method (in this case, reading of published calculations that exist on the topic) than on simple hunch.

RCulling said:
Does [GR] "say" there is as much dark matter as Newtons theory? or are they about the same?
 
  • #16
cesiumfrog said:
Since GR is nonlinear, we know that the field of two stars is not quite simply the sum of the individual fields of either star in isolation. Do any of you know how much difference this makes? Have any of you seen the calculation attempted?

What you do is to expand things out into a power series

GR = Newtonian + (something) x + (something) x^2 + (something) x^3 + ...

Then you look at what x is and how big it is, and x is v/c and for the purposes of galaxy rotation it's not big enough to make any difference. The good thing about this sort of argument is that could apply even if GR is wrong.

Also if you show that x is big enough to be important, but x^2 isn't, then you end up with what is called the post-Newtonian formalism and that happens to be linear.

Isn't it obvious to every thinking person that one will arrive at different numbers for the quantity of dark matter depending on whether one interprets that data using one theoretical framework or another subtly nonequivalent framework?

Except that you won't. As long as your theory of gravity approximates Newtonian gravity then it's not going to matter. Now you could be in a situation where your theory of gravity *doesn't* approximate Newtonian gravity in which case you get into the world of MOND models.

What you can show is that as long as things are "subtly" different, things aren't going to matter. Things have to be very different for things to matter.

So how is it invalid (nay, threatening) to investigate how much those numbers differ? You know, actually bothering to check quantitatively how good the approximation is?

People do that. The trouble with that is that it can be done in two paragraphs and it's so easy to do that it's not worth writing a paper about it. Now what *would* be worth a paper is if you could stare at the basic argument and show that it's flawed.

Be my guest :-) :-) :-)

I'm certainly not claiming that Newtonian physics is a terrible approximation:

That's interesting since there is a whole series of papers that argues that Newtonian physics *is* a terrible approximation to galaxy rotations. If you want galaxy rotations to be a gravity effect, you have to argue that Newtonian gravity is wrong at galactic scales. This isn't a crazy thing to do. I mean, we know that Newtonian gravity is very wrong at cosmological scales, and we know it's pretty good at solar system scales.

I'm only advocating placing more weight on nuanced application of scientific method (in this case, reading of published calculations that exist on the topic) than on simple hunch.

You don't want nuance. This is something that you want to be blunt about. You don't want complex math, you want a simple straightforward argument, and that turns out to be that v/c << 1.

Also the calculation to check if GR matters or not is a trivially simple one, and it's so simple that no one is going to publish a paper about it. Now if you can think of a reason why the basic argument is wrong, then *that* would be worth a paper.
 
  • #17
Also astrophysicists like these sorts of simply arguments because they are quick. If it turns out that GR makes a difference then you are going to be spending the next months/years/decades figuring out the details.

So a five minute argument that says "it's not going to matter" is something that is very useful. It also tells you that there are three possibilities 1) dark matter 2) some theory of gravity that is totally unlike Newtonian gravity or 3) some fundamental problem with the quick argument.

The problem with these arguments is that they never quite get published because it's too easy and not worth publishing.
 
  • #18
I'm only advocating placing more weight on nuanced application of scientific method (in this case, reading of published calculations that exist on the topic) than on simple hunch.
It strikes me as odd that you rather call us dogmatists than consider the possibility that the problem really is easy enough to be settled with a few numbers. There are weak fields (~10^-6), slow velocities (~10^-3), so perturbation theory will work. That means that the respective corrections are themselves of order 10^-6, 10^-3.
That's not magic, it's science. And if you don't like the result, because there's a dogma or two in your thinking that DM must be non-existent, well, then come up with a better argument. This one won't work.
 
  • #19
twofish-quant said:
People do that. The trouble with that is that it can be done in two paragraphs and it's so easy to do that it's not worth writing a paper about it. Now what *would* be worth a paper is if you could stare at the basic argument and show that it's flawed.

Be my guest :-) :-) :-)

That was good for a chuckle, thanks. This came immediately to mind:
[PLAIN]http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~dpadgett/ackbar.jpg

I find the dark matter result disturbing, but as Ich has said it is because of previous dogmatic thinking on my part. The more I learn about it (often in such forums as this) the more I understand how limited the options are. I would put some money on WIMPs, but in general, if DM didn't exist it would be almost inconceivable at this point. GR is just too good, and observations all seem to agree on the basic issues.
 
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  • #20
Ich said:
there's a dogma or two in your thinking that DM must be non-existent
I apparently can't repeat this enough: I do not think such a thing. I don't understand how you have misread so extremely.
 
  • #21
I don't understand how you have misread so extremely.
You tried to explain our refusal of such ideas with psychology. Called us dogmatists. I think it's understandable that I mirrored that word.
But it's ok, so I misunderstood something.
 
  • #22
Ich, I'll reiterate my previous post.

If you try to measure a quantity using the same data but two (not exactly equivalent) theoretical frameworks, you will expect to get two not exactly equal results. This much is surely obvious to you, but tell me if you need an explicit example.

Now, my understanding of the OP is that it raises the quantitative question, how much do those numbers differ in the particular case of whether full GR is used to interpret the dark matter evidence. Hence, one would be both technically incorrect and failing to answer the question if one were to react insisting there were literally zero difference.

Now, a very simple argument has been put forward to say that the difference would be (bounded above by) less than one percent, and (twofish-quant might find that arguments which are too little to warrant a separate research article still often tend to be mentioned in passing, and detailed in textbooks or review articles) indeed I understand this to be the consensus view among astronomers. Fine. Even if that argument is flawless, I still think it is worth asking about the actual difference, because I think the process necessary to actually approach this problem fully within GR must be very interesting (indeed, twofish-quant implicitly agrees with this by guessing it could take decades of work for the details to be worked out the first time). But it would seem the expert-reviewed GR literature does already mention attempts to answer this question, so the obvious thing to do is to cite those for the OP.

As it happens, the result I cited describes a difference of more than 1% (and less than 100%; I don't see why you keep referring to "such ideas" like complete nonexistence of dark matter). Since this conflicts with the very simple argument used outside of the hard core general relativity field, we could suggest that experts on GR have not heard the basics that are known of GR. Alternatively, we could suggest that the a person whose qualifications include presiding for a society of professional GR and gravitation researchers might have already encountered (and understood the possible flaws in) such a simple argument. Since this is not the same area of GR as my expertise, I haven't a great deal to add.
 
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  • #23
If you try to measure a quantity using the same data but two (not exactly equivalent) theoretical frameworks, you will expect to get two not exactly equal results.
Exactly. You expect two not exactly equivalent results. The size of "not exactly equivalent" can be estimated by the procedures that twofish-quant and I applied. "not exactly equivalent" is not 10% (measurement uncertainty), and it's definitely not a factor of 5. OP answered.
Hence, one would be both technically incorrect and failing to answer the question if one were to react insisting there were literally zero difference.
Yes. Nobody did so.
I think the process necessary to actually approach this problem fully within GR must be very interesting
I don't think so. It would be a waste of time, nothing more. You'll always do the perturbative approach in such a situation, anything else would be ... insane. Like doing the full quantum mechanical approach in automotive crash test simulations.
But it would seem the expert-reviewed GR literature does already mention attempts to answer this question, so the obvious thing to do is to cite those for the OP.
Well, at least I said that I remembered one attempt to explain DM with GR, and its debunking. I couldn't find the references after a quick search, so I thought it'd be ok if I give an OOM estimation with the same result. Maybe someone with better memory will give you the links.
As it happens, the result I cited describes a difference of more than 1%
No, it doesn't. It says:
Wiltshire said:
The amount of non-baryonic dark matter relative to baryonic matter is decreased, but still significant. Ratios of 3:1 non-baryonic to baryonic matter are typically found as a best fit, for cosmological solutions using boundary conditions consistent with the CMB anisotropies and primordial inflation.
That's nothing to do with the ratio of visible to dark matter in galaxies.
Since this conflicts with the very simple argument used outside of the hard core general relativity field, we could suggest that experts on GR have not heard the basics that are known of GR. Alternatively, we could suggest that the a person whose qualifications include presiding for a society of professional GR and gravitation researchers might have already encountered (and understood the possible flaws in) such a simple argument.
Or, as a third alternative: There's no conflict, because Wiltshire is not talking about galaxy rotation. He's talking about cosmology. (a citation: "Here we take a “dust particle” to be of at least the scale of statistical homogeneity, 100h−1 Mpc or somewhat
larger". Much bigger than a galaxy.)
Maybe you noticed that I gave you numbers related to the potential, even if the deviation due to velocity is bigger. I did so because it is exacly the condition that the potential be << 1 that Wiltshire violates when talking about cosmological averaging effects. The "simple results" do not necessarily apply cosmologically.
I'm convinced that there are no vital averaging effects in cosmology, too, but that's something completely different.
 
  • #24
Ich said:
There's no conflict, because Wiltshire is not talking about galaxy rotation. He's talking about cosmology.
Ah, you are correct. It is by analysing other categories of data in the framework of GR that he is dismissing 40% of the dark matter otherwise normally expected to exist in the universe. Looking at PRD 78 084032 (2008), it seems he has not yet tackled rotation curves, but outlines reasons to not presume those to be inconsistent with the same result.

Ich said:
I don't think so. It would be a waste of time, nothing more. You'll always do the perturbative approach in such a situation, anything else would be ... insane. Like doing the full quantum mechanical approach in automotive crash test simulations.
We can agree to disagree on whether it is interesting. For what it's worth, though I wouldn't use QM for every routine crash test, I think it would be interesting to see QM applied once to a giant system (such as a computer - in the context of MWI this might much better test/demonstrate emergence of classicality), especially a mysterious system with proposed quantum explanations (for example, "a person operating a computer" - you can see how that would get the attention of the followers of Penrose). In the case of galaxies, the perturbative approach makes implicit assumptions about the surrounding geometry, the validity of which are questioned in the paper I just mentioned.
 
  • #25
Didn't I say this was a trap?! No one listens to the Mon Calamari. :cry:
 
  • #27
cesiumfrog said:
I think it would be interesting to see QM applied once to a giant system (such as a computer - in the context of MWI this might much better test/demonstrate emergence of classicality)

Been done. One of the reasons that people don't think that dark matter consists of neutrinos is that it turns out that you can't put enough neutrinos around a galaxy because of the Pauli exclusion principle. What you do is to model the galaxy as a hydrogen atom, count the number of atomic states that you can put a neutrino in, and it's not nearly enough.

Also "simple is beautiful" and "complex math is a necessary evil that you need to avoid if possible." When people apply simple scaling or order of magnitude arguments to a physical situation with GR or QM, that's a valid argument and it's a *better* argument that requires pages of obscure math.

Now you can try to invalidate the simple arguments with complex math, but then the ball is in your court. If you think that solving the full GR equations create a situation in which the weak field perturbation fails, you are welcome to publish. The thing about this is that it takes years to develop expertise to the point where you can do this sort of work. A lot of people involved in the field are specifically looking for this sort of thing, and no one has published anything suggesting that as a matter of math, the weak-field arguments are invalid at galactic scales.

especially a mysterious system with proposed quantum explanations (for example, "a person operating a computer" - you can see how that would get the attention of the followers of Penrose).

Penrose is a crank when it comes to things outside his field of expertise. The basic problem with Penrose is that you can come up with easy arguments that quantum mechanics *doesn't* play a major role in neuroscience, so to get around that Penrose invents his own neuroscience.

In the case of galaxies, the perturbative approach makes implicit assumptions about the surrounding geometry, the validity of which are questioned in the paper I just mentioned.

Perturbative approaches to GR assume that the background geometry can be approximated by a flat-space time.

If we are talking about Whitshire's work, no it doesn't. It's a very interesting paper as for as dark energy goes, but when you go into the scale of single galaxies, none of his arguments apply, and going through the math, I didn't get any major change in galactic-scale dark matter. If Whitshire published a paper in which he argued that the perturbative approaches to GR are invalid at the level of single galaxies, that would be very interesting, but he hasn't.

Also, if you go through Whitshire's paper, it's interesting because you can look at the scaling arguments and show that GR will make a difference. Whitshire argues that there may be interesting averaging effects cosmologically, and at those scales v/c starts becoming significant, which says that you do need GR.
 
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  • #28
no one has published anything suggesting that as a matter of math, the weak-field arguments are invalid at galactic scales.
Um, actually, Cooperstock and Tieu did, as I just said.
 
  • #29
Ich said:
Um, actually, Cooperstock and Tieu did, as I just said.

Cool!

If I had an extra week or so, I'd go through their calculations and figure out why Poisson's theorem stops working for their calculations. One thing that very seriously bothers me is that they are using a stationary metric to model a rotating frame, and that will cause a lot of problems.

Forget general relativity and just think of Newtonian physics. If you try to take a stationary cylindrical coordinate system and apply it to a rotating system, you end up with wrong answers. What I think will happen if you go step by step in the derivation is that you'll find a missing "centrifugal force" term, and the "dark matter" is necessary to provide a force that counterbalances the centrifugal force.

Also I think that the assumption of stars pressure-less dust is also suspect.

This does point out the problem with "non-publication bias." Suppose I do spend a week and manage to convince myself that Cooperstock is wrong. That's not publishable, because it's likely that a hundred other people have gone through the some calculation and figured out the same thing.
 
  • #30
cesiumfrog said:
In the case of galaxies, the perturbative approach makes implicit assumptions about the surrounding geometry, the validity of which are questioned in the paper I just mentioned.

Cesium, I agree with you about this and also that it's worth the effort to try out GR in the problem about galactic rotation curves. Sure is a hard task, it might even be argued that it'll probably turn out to be practically impossible, but if you don't use GR to try to solve this kind of gravitational problem, what do you use it for? Are we to conform just with schwarschild trivial solutions?. If that were the case, even if conceptually rich, in practice GR would be a bit of a letdown.
The paper by Tieu and Cooperstock may be flawed but that is no reason for giving up this approach.
I think there is a basic misunderstanding when trying to linearize GR (make equivalent the non-linear equations of GR to the linear Newtonian theory in the limit of the weak field) GR, except for the trivial case of Schwarzschild solution with T=0. This was already realized by Weyl many years ago: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2371768
 
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  • #31
twofish-quant said:
Now if you can think of a reason why the basic argument is wrong, then *that* would be worth a paper.

Certainly, and it's been published, and not just by anybody. Check the link I posted.
 
  • #32
twofish-quant said:
If I had an extra week or so, I'd go through their calculations and figure out why Poisson's theorem stops working for their calculations.
Just follow the citations, there's a bunch of things wrong with their calculations. Like claiming that the Schwarzschild solution describes an empty spacetime - if it weren't for this nasty spot in the middle where the metric is a little bit discontinuous.
Look especially at Garfinkle's short note, where he brings the same arguments as we did here, supplemented with an implausibility argument regarding "self-sustained" (i.e. source-independent) curvature.
 
  • #33
TrickyDicky said:
if you don't use GR to try to solve this kind of gravitational problem, what do you use it for?

Black holes. Cosmological models. Gravitation waves. High resolution measurements or satellites. GPS. Gravitational lensing.

Sometimes you need GR, but you are just making life difficult for yourself for no good reason if you are using it for things in which it just doesn't make a difference. I'm not sure what the point is.

Are we to conform just with schwarschild trivial solutions?. If that were the case, even if conceptually rich, in practice GR would be a bit of a letdown.

You use the least mathematically complicated tool that you can. If you can get away with the Schwarzschild solution, then you use the Schwarzschild solution. If you don't have to deal with GR at all, you don't. Mathematical complexity is a necessary evil and an annoyance.

The paper by Tieu and Cooperstock may be flawed but that is no reason for giving up this approach.

If you want to go hunting unicorns, then you have to deal with the possibility that there are no unicorns to hunt. The reason for not using GR in galaxy rotation is that you end up with lots of extra math to do, and you don't get anything useful out of doing it. I seriously doubt that Tieu and Cooperstock are the first people to try to do a calculation applying GR to galaxy rotation, except that everyone else that has done this seems to understand GR enough to do the calculation correctly and find that it doesn't make a difference.

Even if you are convinced that that there is some odd GR effect that affects galaxy rotation that itself obvious from the perturbation expansion, you are much, much better off describing this effect as a *general* astrophysical phenonmenon that you can observe with high precision measurements like GPS, and then applying it to galaxy rotation once it's been observed elsewhere.
 
  • #34
Geigerclick said:
if DM didn't exist it would be almost inconceivable at this point. GR is just too good, and observations all seem to agree on the basic issues.

Curiously this isn't the consensus of the astrophysical community. There are an entire industry within astrophysics proposing various forms of modified gravity. Modified gravity is looking less and less likely for dark matter, but the door is still wide open for dark energy, and it's also settled that what people considered "standard GR" in 1995 (i.e. no cosmological constant or external fields) is just not going to work.

Any currently viable alternative gravity theories can be stated as "GR + fudge factor" The thing about "GR + fudge factor" is that you can't completely rule out the alternative theory. You can only set limits on the size of the fudge factor.
 
  • #35
twofish-quant said:
If you want to go hunting unicorns, then you have to deal with the possibility that there are no unicorns to hunt.
twofish-quant said:
Black holes. Cosmological models. Gravitation waves.

You just mentioned some good examples of hunting unicorns.

twofish-quant said:
High resolution measurements or satellites. GPS. Gravitational lensing.

These are derived from the equivalence principle and bending of light concepts that were predicted by Einstein years before the field equations were found in 1915.
 
  • #36
TrickyDicky said:
You just mentioned some good examples of hunting unicorns.

I'm not sure what your point is. In each of the cases that I mentioned, you calculate the speeds involved, the gravitation fields, and then the observational sensitivity, and from pretty simple algebra, you very quickly figure out that yes, GR matters.

If you do the calculations with galaxy rotation, the numbers just say that it doesn't matter to the limits that we can do detections. If as mental exercise, you just want to do things the hard way, and spend six months trying solve the full Einstein equations for galaxy rotations with the high probability of finding out something that you could have figured out in five minutes, you are free to do so, but I really don't see the point.

Even if you love doing complicated math, you could spend those six months solving the full Einstein equations for something else, like a black hole accretion disk.
 
  • #37
twofish-quant said:
If you do the calculations with galaxy rotation, the numbers just say that it doesn't matter to the limits that we can do detections. If as mental exercise, you just want to do things the hard way, and spend six months trying solve the full Einstein equations for galaxy rotations with the high probability of finding out something that you could have figured out in five minutes, you are free to do so, but I really don't see the point.

Ok, here is the point, I am just inverting the order of the possibilities you mentioned:
twofish-quant said:
It also tells you that there are three possibilities 1) dark matter 2) some theory of gravity that is totally unlike Newtonian gravity or 3) some fundamental problem with the quick argument.

So I think it is more logical to try to first see (possibility 3) if there is a fundamental problem with linearization of GR in a complex system like a galaxy , to make it approximate the solution from Newtonian theory, here I do think it is not so straightforward that it is possible and thus my citing Weyl in his 1944 paper criticizing Birkhoff's theorem. As it's been mentioned, even in a much , much simpler system like Mercury's orbit we find a small discrepancy, that might be enlarged non-linearly in a galactic system.
If that were so ( the big disparity between GR and Newtonian theory when applied to complex enough systems) then it woud be worth doing the hard math. If one concludes like you do that this is not the case (but notice that your reasoning is heuristic, you have no formal proof that the quick argument is true beforehand) then you move on to possibility 2, a problem with Newtonian theory in systems other than our solar system, that makes us think of a new theory, or perhaps about a correction for larger systems, well that wouldn't be such strange thing to happen, we already know Newton theory is incomplete and fails at high speeds and strong gravitational fields, but that doesn't make it wrong just incomplete.

The virial theorem might not work properly for systems like galaxies or clusters. Perhaps at such large dimensions the geometry of space affects the ergodic properties on which the virial theorem heavily relies.

These might look like unlikely hypothesis, but I think they are worth exploring before (or at the very least in parallel with) turning to possibility number one: a completely new form of matter, never suspected before that would seem more like science-fiction and that so far has not been detected after numerous experiments.
But certainly I'm not dismissing this possibility, I only wonder why you and others think the other two possibilities should be discarded so easily.
 
  • #38
TrickyDicky said:
OSo I think it is more logical to try to first see (possibility 3) if there is a fundamental problem with linearization of GR in a complex system like a galaxy , to make it approximate the solution from Newtonian theory

We aren't talking about linearization. You don't have to linearize to do perturbation theory. What you have to show is that a small change results in a small response. This is different from linearization. You could have a highly non-linear situation in which perturbation theory works, if the response function is concave or saturates quickly. You can have a linear situation in which the response functions are steep in which perturbation theory doesn't work.

Also you have to be careful about "complexity." Systems with high degrees of freedom can be trivial to mathematically model, whereas systems with low degrees of freedom can be hard to model. Assuming there are no galactic scale magnetic fields, galaxies are quite easy to model. The entire universe is *MUCH* easier to model than smoke from a cigarette or for that matter my wife.

The reason that I think it's unlikely that you are going to find "weird things" with GR is that ultimately GR is a theory that is based on differential geometry and smooth manifolds, and any theory based on smooth manifolds will have smooth response functions if you look at a small enough area. It's possible that a mathematician has formalized this idea.

As it's been mentioned, even in a much , much simpler system like Mercury's orbit we find a small discrepancy, that might be enlarged non-linearly in a galactic system.

What tends to happen when you increase the degrees of freedom is that non-linearities cancel themselves out. If you look at a single atom, it's quite complicated. If you look at a trillion atoms, you have a gas, and any odd behavior within a single atom gets washed out.

There are some pretty standard tests that you can use to see if there is an impact of small changes affect the larger system, and in the case of gravity, small changes get washed out. Now if you are talking about magnetic fields, that's a totally different story. The basic issue is that gravity can be approximated as a scalar potential, and scalar potentials wash out these effects.

If that were so ( the big disparity between GR and Newtonian theory when applied to complex enough systems) then it woud be worth doing the hard math.

Galaxies are fairly simple systems. Big systems are often simpler than small systems. Systems with lots of moving parts are often (and in fact usually) are simpler than systems with few moving parts.

Or do the easy math. You are talking a lot about "if's" and what I'm telling you is that a lot of people have looked at this and found nothing. I think like a physicist and not a mathematician so my logic isn't rigorous, but there are a whole bunch of people that have put some rigor into the arguments that I've made.

Also, it's much easier sometimes, if look at the general situation rather than a specific situation. Mathematicians are useful because they *don't* look at the physical situations. They just tell you how certain rules behave under certain conditions.

If one concludes like you do that this is not the case (but notice that your reasoning is heuristic, you have no formal proof that the quick argument is true beforehand)

I don't have a formal proof, but it's something that mathematicians spend their time doing. If the mathematicians thought that there was something seriously wrong, it would get filtered through the mathematical physicists.

These might look like unlikely hypothesis, but I think they are worth exploring before (or at the very least in parallel with) turning to possibility number one:

Go to http://adswww.harvard.edu/ and the Los Alamos preprint server and search for MOND and f(r). You will find *hundreds* (and possibly thousands) of papers on modified gravity theories. It's not something that people are ignoring, but there are reasons why dark matter is favored over modified gravity. Right now, modified gravity isn't quite dead with respect to galaxy rotation curves, but it's critically ill, and I'll leave it to you doing some research to figure out why.

a completely new form of matter, never suspected before that would seem more like science-fiction and that so far has not been detected after numerous experiments.

Sure. But right now it's the least bad situation.

But certainly I'm not dismissing this possibility, I only wonder why you and others think the other two possibilities should be discarded so easily.

I hate to be harsh about this, but it's because you aren't aware of the research that has been done, and the effort that has been put into this. Just google for MOND and f(R).

People have looked very, very hard for the possibility that there is some approximation problem or some modified gravity, and haven't found anything convincing. After haven't several hundred people spend about a decade looking for unicorns and finding nothing, you start wondering if they aren't finding things because they don't exist.

This applies to dark matter too. If after another decade or so, we find no sign of dark matter, than people will think of something else. However, the fact that we are starting to see gravitational lensing of something that looks like dark matter does change things. I suspect that within a decade, we'll have very good maps of exactly where the dark matter is.

Some other things...

1) Most of the work on modified gravity has moved away from dark matter to dark energy
2) Even if you were to establish that there is no weird dark matter around galaxies, you'd still have a big problem since cosmological dark matter requires a lot more dark matter than that
 
  • #39
twofish-quant said:
We aren't talking about linearization. You don't have to linearize to do perturbation theory. What you have to show is that a small change results in a small response. This is different from linearization.
We are talking about GR and gravity in the weak field limit, I never said that perturbation theory is the same as linearization. When GR is linearized, perturbation methods can be a tool to do it but it's not the same. See for intance this from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linearized_gravity

twofish-quant said:
Galaxies are fairly simple systems.
I'm sure in this forum there are people who disagree with this statement,for instance in this thread. https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2776322#post2776322

But I think you are confusing simplicity with the final result of some calculation, galaxies as gravitational systems could be very simple, but a single parameter could change the final result a lot.

twofish-quant said:
I don't have a formal proof, but it's something that mathematicians spend their time doing. If the mathematicians thought that there was something seriously wrong, it would get filtered through the mathematical physicists.
Well, let me doubt it, anyway if everybody thought this way, science wouldn't advance much. And I don't mean only formal proofs but different physics approaches to apparently already tried problems.If every scientist (after reading the pertinent literature) think that his specific approach must have already proven false there'd be no theoretical breakthroughs.

twofish-quant said:
This applies to dark matter too. If after another decade or so, we find no sign of dark matter, than people will think of something else.
Maybe, but I don't think that is the common feeling around here. Hope this statement won't get you in trouble.

Regards
 
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  • #40
TrickyDicky said:
I'm sure in this forum there are people who disagree with this statement,for instance in this thread. https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2776322#post2776322

We are talking about the context of gravitational rotation curves. What goes in the core for that is irrelevant. Now if you are talking about other aspects of galaxies, then that's different.

But I think you are confusing simplicity with the final result of some calculation, galaxies as gravitational systems could be very simple, but a single parameter could change the final result a lot.

I care about whether it does or it doesn't. If something maybe can or maybe can't, that's a useless statement. What are the parameters that effect galactic rotation? How does the calculation change in response to the different parameters, and so forth?

Well, let me doubt it, anyway if everybody thought this way, science wouldn't advance much.

The nice things about mathematicians is that when you have a mathematician give you a formal proof, then it's rock solid. What's also cool is when the mathematician gives you a formal proof and then points out about five or six different loopholes in that proof. If you really want to go into the mathematical aspects of general relativity, that's an entire career, but you may find (and I think you probably will find) that what are trying to do just won't work.

And I don't mean only formal proofs but different physics approaches to apparently already tried problems.If every scientist (after reading the pertinent literature) think that his specific approach must have already proven false there'd be no theoretical breakthroughs.

Hardly. Science is a conversation. If you read a paper saying that your approach just won't work, and you disagree, you can spend a few weeks coming up with a rebuttal and things progress. Also, sometimes your approach just won't work because God has determined that your approach just won't work, and you need to try something else. You can often take the work you've done in one area and adapt it in another.

People spend a decade trying to make cosmic deuterium and failed, but it turns out that they could make lithium. The coffin is closing on galactic dark matter but it's still quite open for cosmological ones.

Also if you learn that your approach just won't work, that's usually a cause for celebration, because getting to that point can be grueling. CDM came out of supersymmetry.

Maybe, but I don't think that is the common feeling around here. Hope this statement won't get you in trouble.

Why do you say that? It's not like anyone dogmatically believes in dark matter. Personally, I think most people around here would think it would be totally cool if someone came up with a strong argument that dark matter just won't work. Most physicists I know jump for joy when they figure out that everything they thought they knew was wrong. One of my memories was when the COBE results were coming in, and people were hoping that their *weren't* blackbody anisotropies, because that would mean that the big bang was all wrong.

I knew of a famous physicist that works in both HEP and cosmology, and he says that HEP is a little depressing because everything fits theory unlike cosmology where we really don't understand what is going on.

One other thing, you have to go from "could or should" to "is" or "is not". People have mentioned why they don't think that GR has much of a role in galaxy rotations. This is a challenge to you. If you want to plan the game, you need to respond with a counter-argument. That argument has to be more than "maybe it works" or "it might be important." You need to come with something more solid. In particularly, you need to estimate how *much* of a difference does it make?

Also you can start by explaining the relevance of the papers you cited. I've gotten a list of papers in that discussion, Birkoff was proposing a completely different theory of gravity than Einstein, and Weyl was pointing out that when you linearize Birkoff's theory and when you linearize GR, you get different results. This has nothing to do with the topic under discussion.

The other thing is that if you are new to GR, you are much better off working on problems where GR is *known* to be essential than ones where it's likely that it's not.
 
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  • #41
twofish-quant said:
I knew of a famous physicist that works in both HEP and cosmology, and he says that HEP is a little depressing because everything fits theory unlike cosmology where we really don't understand what is going on.
Let's hope they get some surprise from the LHC.:smile:
 

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