Abortion: The Necessity for Victims of Rape and Incest

[Justinius]

Rape and incest are two of the most heinous crimes known to humanity. To augment the brutality of rape with the brutality of forcing a victim to have a child as a result of this rape would be a constant memory of such a psychologically traumatizing event and be tantamount to torture for the already scarred victim. Would this circumstance make abortion good?

 

[Pronoia]

You are assuming that having a child would be a negative reminder. I don't believe that is correct. In fact the right approach to deal with rape is not to forget, because you can't, it is to learn to deal with it. And a child would be a help not a hinderance in that endeavor.

How many women initially choose to give their child up for adoption and then change their mind once the child is born? This indicates that a living child is something positive for its mother.

I am not suggesting that every case be treated the same, because they are not, but to summarily end a human life on something as frivolous as being a reminder of something bad, is immoral.

 

[Dayle Record]

Every time you spit, you kill human cells. Every time you eat, cheek cells are digested in your alimentary canal. Primitive morality gives the rapist reproductive rights, inside the victim. Real morality, educates societies regarding the rights of women; and punishes the rapist.

Real morality and balance returns the victim to the physical state, she was in, before the rape. In Africa rape=aids. Many women are the victims of rape there, and their children die, or are born to dying mothers, there is no positive moral to this story. The lives created are destroyed in the making, creating a huge class of slave children, children with no parents, and therefore hungry and minimal futures.

Morning after drugs would really help African women, and help them to corral their resources to better take care of the children they already have, that may already be, the product of rape.

When rapists procreate, they pass along their uncivilized and stupid genes. That is really unfortunate for our species. Forcing mothers to spend a lifetime tending to the product of criminal acting out, is a waste of lives that could be much sweeter, with Mothers and Fathers tending to the children they wanted, together.

You forget that primitive societies criminalize the victims of rape, your morality let's a man destroy the life of a woman and her children. In a lot of primitive situations, it is the women, that care for the offspring, and gather much of the food, and haul the water. Let us not make kings of rapists and slavers, because that is what you advocate, when you grant them reproductive rights in their victims.

 

[Justinius]

Dayle,

Your response seems unclear to me. Does this mean that you find abortion in these situations to be acceptable?

 

[Dayle Record]

In the first trimester of pregnacy, I find abortion acceptible in any case. In the second trimester of pregnacy I find abortion acceptible, in the case of gentic illness, danger to the mother, very young mothers, children, who were in denial that they could be pregnant. If a female is raped, morning after drugs should be available, if a child is raped, she should be able to abort as soon as she can. Children who are assaulted or used incestuously should have rapid access to abortion, when incest is determined, or for females underage. In this nation, females are not breeding stock. The lives of women do not take a back seat to rapists, rapists do not have reproductive rights, as far as I am concerned.

 

[AiA]

So Dayle, are you saying that murder is good under cetain circumstances, cause if you are, that is dead wrong. (mind you abortion is killing.) Why would you deny life to a child because of what happened to the mother, don't punish the child for the act of a raper man. And mind you, there is no such thing as 'incenciteve or stupid' genes, I don't know if that was supposed to be a joke or one the the dumbest comments I've ever heard. And you made references to killing germs, you realize there's a world of difference between killing a mouth germ when swollering to killing a child. I don't know why you'd compare the two. And when you say in aferica, a raped mother will most likely give birth to a child with aids, are you implying that to have aids makes one less human, one with aids can still be happy, one without parents can still be happy, one with limited food, no family, no parents, though in an extremely difficult situation, can still be happy. Unless you believe we should nuke Africa and get rid of all those damn poor people. Cause that's what it sounds like your saying.

 

[selfAdjoint]

(mind you abortion is killing.)

To you but not to others. A zygote is "human" only in distant potential, and its life is utterly parasitic on its mother's. It just isn't a baby however much you pretend and try to win arguments by self-assumed moral superiority.

 

[dekoi]

To you but not to others. A zygote is "human" only in distant potential, and its life is utterly parasitic on its mother's. It just isn't a baby however much you pretend and try to win arguments by self-assumed moral superiority.

Do you not have distant potential to be 105 years old? Do you not have distant potential to die in 'x' years? The 'fetus' too has distant potential to become a newborn out of the womb. Everyone has distant potential to become particular things at any time.

Its life might be dependent heavily on the mother's, but that does not change that it is still living. You to are dependent on the rest of society. The breakdown of the macro starts with the corruption of the micro.

 

[Dayle Record]

Rapists are unfit parents.

In the Sudan, I think that the women who have been raped, should drop the babies off at army camps and walk away from them. Leave them to the fathers to raise. There would be no abortion, but then again, there would be a lot of dead babies, because these "fathers", were rapists. They were not interested in becoming parents.

Keep in mind, being pregnant or not, is a woman's choice. Amazingly when women can choose, then the unfit males, (rapists) do not get to reproduce. That really scares the lunatic fringe, since they are incapable of civilized living, their only hope for passing on their genetic material, is rape or enslavement.

 

[Justinius]

Rapists are unfit parents.

How can you just assume this? What if in a rape situation the rapist was drunk? What if the rapist is already a parent? Just because the person commits an evil act, it does not make them evil. Please support your claims, you cannot just make assumptions like the above.

 

[AiA]

You keep on saying rapists don't have the right, well as justininiun said, just cause someone does evil, it doesn't make them evil. I lied, does that make me a lier, that means I have no chance of repentance, no chance of mercy, cause once I do something wrong, I'm branded for life for taht act. Have you ever done something morally wrong, if you have, then your wrong. That is exactly what your saying. And mine, our others morality is not our own morality, it is morality, were either right or wrong, can't be both, but were able to support our claims, your not, so till you do, i believe its safe to say that 'our' (which is all) morality, is truth.

 

[Dayle Record]

Whether you believe something is good or evil, is simply a belief. It is unsubstantial in the real world.

What happens in real time, and the hurt it causes to others, constitutes what is good or evil. By your standards, a man could rape many women, then if your word were law, he could father many children of his rapes, and ruin as many lives as he touched, and use up these lives, in the taking care of his offspring. If he were HIV positive, he would be murdering every woman he raped, and her unborn children, and depriving the living children of their mother. Then he could repent, say some words to a priest, or an imam, write a letter, and then he could be a good man.

Wrong. I think he should be in prison for the first rape. And the woman take a morning after pill. Then he should be in prison longer for the second rape, and the woman takes a morning after pill. Then when he rapes for the third time, he never leaves prison, and the woman takes a morning after pill. Even better would be if the woman shot him, when he made the first attempt, and would that she were an expert shot.

In Africa, rape=murder in many cases, because of the prevalence of HIV infection. If Africans want to survive the HIV pandemic, rape needs to become a capitol crime. HIV testing needs to become a part of pre marriage health workups. The circumcision of females should be abandoned, as they are giving a lot of young women, HIV, in the circumcision process. It will take some very pragmatic measures to save the peoples, cultures, and nations of Africa. Rape is a very personal enemy of all people.

 

[AiA]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that good and evil were just a self inflicted problem, like, why should you worry about evil, it only dwells in your life 24/7, and so does good, its just a matter of which you let prevail. Thats not a matter of belief, but a matter of fact. And since when was a child a burdan, who could think such crual thoughts of children?

 

[Dayle Record]

Good and Evil are concepts, created by humans to describe things that are positive or negative in ideation or effect. They are not living entities. Evil isn't running around making people do things, and then leaving these same people, so that they are suddenly not evil, and therefore good. I do not live with either good or evil, I live on earth, with regular physical phenomenon, cause and effect. I do what I do, because I choose to, just like anyone else. I need no excuses for what I do.

Raising children well, is a very difficult and lengthy task. It is not a task that I would perform on anyone else's whim, but my own. I am not shamed by your rhetoric.

In case your mother didn't teach you, those that tell lies, are liars. Those that steal are thieves. Those that kill, are killers. People who say children can't be, a burden, never had any.

 

[Bartholomew]

What is so traumatizing about rape compared to, say, having your kneecaps broken?

 

[BigStelly]

Funny once again... as always it comes to this idea of relativism... I am sure anyone would agree that someone who is a serial killer is doing wrong from any frame of reference. Therefore there are standards of right and wrong no matter what perspective you look at it from, shoot even Ted Bundy admitted what he was doing was wrong from anyone's perspective and not ok from his.
Those who say right and wrong are relative are most of the time in my experience trying to find a way to justify a lifestyle that they live in guilt.

 

[pocebokli]

kneecaps broken? hehe...for a machine, there would be no difference if it was fried by another machine or if it fell off a cliff.

but for a human...bartholomew, we have something that is called feelings, when you are old enough you will understand what they are. at least i hope...

and i, personally, do not utterly condemn neither the rapist with his stupid "genes" (hey, there's a gene for a rape...good to come among such enlightened people here...you must have all finished university but it seems none of you has even started to understand yourself. a human being)

nor the victim if she chooses the abortion.

you are all taking radical stances here...what is more funny is that you've only seen it on the movies, read it in books, made your opinions. perhaps heard that it happened to someone you distantly know...

you don't have to live the life of a rapist to find out what has driven him to do this, nor do you have to be raped in order to find out why a child born out of rape would to most people be unacceptable.

you, or me, do not know the driving force behind the rapist's decision, neither the pain of the raped woman/mand/child.

so just shut the **** up and get on with your egocentric lives, cause some of the anwsers here made me almost puke onto the god damn keyboard.

 

[pocebokli]

and jesus said to the masochists: "Do not do to others what you would not want to be done to yourself!"

 

[Bartholomew]

pocebokli, would you rather be raped or lose a leg to gangrene?

 

[AiA]

I would rather loose my legs, that is, if I were a woman. Please don't come to conclusions of just cause I'm a man I can't possibally know what it feals like. One can be happy without legs, but the sychological trauma of being raped, and even bearing a child out of it, that damge is permanent and eriplasable. The mind and soul are more important than the body. Steven Haukings, being very incapable, physically, is a perfect example, for that mind I would happily take the weelchair.

The mind and soul are everlasting, the body isn't, it has to die sometime.

 

[Justinius]

and i, personally, do not utterly condemn neither the rapist with his stupid "genes" (hey, there's a gene for a rape...good to come among such enlightened people here...you must have all finished university but it seems none of you has even started to understand yourself. a human being)
nor the victim if she chooses the abortion.

Pocebokli:
THANK YOU for your satire, you beat me to it.

you, or me, do not know the driving force behind the rapist's decision, neither the pain of the raped woman/mand/child.

You are absolutely right on this one. We cannot tap into the mind of the rapist, nor that of the victim, or child as a result of the victim's victimization. However, studies have shown that a) rape causes incredible emotional and psychiatric trauma, not to mention any physical trauma that an unconsenting victim may obtain. Also, as you said above, we must understand what a human being is. We are aware that a potential human being is actualized at conception, so, does this mean that you would support the killing of an innocent unborn child?

Oh...and thank you for the biblical bit too, even though its a little bit religious I think it can apply to everybody be they atheists or Christians.

 

[Bartholomew]

I can't believe you would really rather lose a leg than be raped. Don't put it as a hypothetical "if I were a woman," as that distances you from it--consider you, as a man, being raped by a gay man, versus losing a leg. Assume no STDs, no pregnancy, no long-term consequences except the memory of it.

 

[Dayle Record]

When the orthopedic surgeon has fixed the kneecaps, I will go back to my life as normal, post recovery. I won't be pregnant, or riddled with disease, my personal sense of security and well being will not have been compromised, by an orthopedic injury. A Muslim, or Christian woman who breaks a kneecap, can still make a marriage confident in her virtue, and virginity. A child that breaks a kneecap, boy or girl, will be up and about in a week or two, laughing and full of innocence and joy, the way they were before it happened.

 

[Bartholomew]

That's why I switched from broken kneecaps to losing a leg.

 

[derekmohammed]

What is so traumatizing about rape compared to, say, having your kneecaps broken?

Are you serious??!

I don't even think that I can justify this with an anwser... Why don't you keep your uninformed opinion to yourself.

Derek Mohammed

 

[Bartholomew]

Yes, I am serious, except instead of broken kneecaps (which is not so serious) I have changed it to losing a leg. I think that most of why rape is held as so terrible is either cultural or genetic programming, not based in how damaging to the person the act is inherently. It seems to me that rape is worse than broken kneecaps, worse than losing a thumb and a few fingers, not worse than losing a hand, far less bad than losing a leg.

(Assuming no STDs or pregnancy resulted from the rape, and only assessing the emotional damage from the act itself)

 

[pocebokli]

he's definitely serious haha bartholomew have you ever had an emotional contact, or close emotional contact with another person? regardless of sex? we are thousands of miles away, but from your one statement of utter ignorance i can say NOPE and readily put my hand in the fire if I'm wrong. and i know that this statement has only more cemented your emotional blockade, which will have restraining effects on the quality of your life. you will die empty and i have added to that muahahah (am i evil? I'm a man, yes i am!)!

let's get serious:-)))... let's first of all assume that the particular leg has been forcefully and unwillingly removed by ANOTHER PERSON. now we have more even case, and better comparison.
but still we have a difference in VALUES. some may value their FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT more than their DIGNITY, some value their DIGNITY above FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT.

and, bartholomew, the value of DIGNITY to some is worth more than the value of LEARNING or vice versa, of course (i'm givin you smtn you'll perhaps be able to identify with, i hope..)

you do your own thinking from now on.

finnaly, let's get 100% absurd: a parasitical thing in most early stage of pregnancy!
which is, by from point of view of science a parasitical thing. ok cool. but don't forget, dear moderator, all that science is is POINT OF VIEW that should HELP us understand the world, not DETERMINE THE WAY WE EXPERIENCE IT (and it can't, actually - leave alone the fact it CAN help to GAIN MORE EXPERIENCE or broaden our senses to experience more things and stuff, but that is not the actual nature of experience, which is a combination of MANY factors and is the very essence of a human being)!

it is utterly stupid, even thru view of science, to take a SINGLE TIME SEGMENT in which the embrio is still parasitical thing and diswov any possibilities or even most basic assumptions of future.

i think every woman that has done an abortion is aware of this possibility. that's why it leaves emotional scars. either consciouss or subconsciouss. and it makes her think many times of "what could have been" and "did i do the right thing".

if you are certain that time is linear, dear moderator, i hope you hold enough wisdom to be certain that thoughts and emotions are not, and are not bound by possible linearity of time.


"no long-term consequences except the ********memory********** of it."

i was going to write something on this but i guess i won't, it's hopeless...

sorry for crudeness but i have some strong temper and although i know it's not very wise of me to include it into such debates sometimes, but when thru my own POV immaturity meter of participant/s reaches red, i just can't help myself.

 

[pocebokli]

oh and barth...when you fall in love for the first time (no, not the chemical reactions in your brain...), and when you will love your woman really really much...think...how would even YOU feel if she was raped...

 

[Bartholomew]

There's no need to be insulting. And I notice you still haven't answered my question. I took the "other person" deal out because that would presumably make losing the leg worse, but let's say it's in. Say a dangerous criminal has been making headlines for abducting people and giving them a choice of either rape or him cutting off their leg. In every case, what the victim chose, the criminal did. Now say that you have been captured by this criminal, and he tells you to choose between him surgically amputating your leg with a sterile saw, and him raping you. He says he will kill you if you don't choose within five minutes. There is no chance of escape. What do you say? If you like, say that if you want he will give you anesthetic when he amputates your leg.

And why should rape permanently destroy dignity? It's traumatizing, but where does dignity come into it?

 

[pocebokli]

i'm sorry, but i can't help you further, i can't put it into words.

this is a thing you will probably have to discover during your lifetime, and such things are discovered mostly by people themselves.

it's not science but it has a logical basis. but it's even more objective than science.

i can raise myself in my thinking above good and bad, above human valuing and i can see thru the walls of society, things as they could have been in their zillion combinations and all the ways in which people could have thought and are thinking. but i still know that as a human being i am subjected to such experiences, and scientific or logical or transcendental or whatever point of view is just that, a point of view.

yes, i can imagine a society in which a rape would be less traumatising than a broken kneecap. perhaps, for a tennis player in our society that is the case even now. but for most other people is not. but that is not the point, you see...

then people like you and most people generally ask questions that are really really narrow and the anwsers they seek aren't really anwsers.

and i think that it is not you who piss me off with your limited dynamics of thinking about such things, i am being pissed off by myself and at myself because i am uncapable of explaining that to anybody.

so, I'm sorry

 

[the number 42]

Hi Bart. I don't blame you for not getting why rape is so devastating, as in a way it shouldn't be that bad. I mean, bad things happen, and we deal with it, right? I think the key might be that we have way more deep feelings and attitudes about sex than we do about other things e.g. I bet you think about sex way more than you think about your legs (get professional help if this is not the case ). So when you combine this whole maze of thoughts and feelings with the impact of a violent attack, you can expect there to be consequences on many levels e.g. social (stigma of rape), relational (will boyfriend/family understand?), personal (loss of sense of control over life), psychological (post-traumatic stress disorder, sex with boyfriend triggers rape memories), legal (forensic examination, testifying) etc. This is ignoring AIDS (or worry about AIDS) and pregnancy issues. So really there is a lot of stuff there. I'd agree that people can & do get over rape, but if you think about it there is a lot of reasons why getting over it shouldn't be an easy thing. I think your question is valid though, and I'd like to hear other people's opinions on why rape is so difficult to deal with.

 

[plus]

I would rather loose my legs, that is, if I were a woman. Please don't come to conclusions of just cause I'm a man I can't possibally know what it feals like. One can be happy without legs, but the sychological trauma of being raped, and even bearing a child out of it, that damge is permanent and eriplasable.

Men can and do get raped also. This is a terrible problem in prison, something which people even make jokes about.

 

[GeD]

Originally Posted by AiA
One can be happy without legs, but the sychological trauma of being raped, and even bearing a child out of it, that damge is permanent and eriplasable.

Wow, I'm sure that rape victims who have fought their way through their misfortune will thank you for trivializing their struggle.

 

[Averagesupernova]

The problem with the abortion issue is that it is a physical act. I do truly believe that at and shortly after fertilization occurs the so-called baby is a parasite. One poster claimed that destroying it is destroying the chance of a future life. They compared it to killing someone who is 40 and destroying their chance of life after retirement. Well let me take this a step farther. A man and woman are in a room. They both have the equipment to create a life. Yet they do not. Same result as abortion (no baby) yet there was not a physical act. The egg goes to waste, the sperm die and are replaced with more. By not having sex they have destroyed the chance of a future life. From a preservation of life standpoint is this any less immoral than doing the deed and 1) fertilization not ocurring, 2) fertilization ocurring and destroying it within a short time? If we are going to argue about 'life' then we need to see it from all sides. The way I see it getting pregnant through rape and choosing adoption over abortion is simply the victims way out of a bad situation. They can say they did not destroy a life and at the same time not have the responsibility of raising a child.

 

[GeD]

1st Part - In response to Bartholomew's posts:
For once, I agree with bartholomew.

If I can walk away from rape physically intact and without disease, the mental trauma of being raped is something I can overcome. I cannot regrow another leg. Of course we don't want to be raped, but it would only be considered "the most evil" if you chose to believe that. Betrayal and abuse are heartbreaking, but it only breaks a man if the man chooses to be broken - or believes that being raped is about being broken. The problem is that people fear rape so much, that they call it their absolute enemy - that it's the end of the world. Rape survivors are a testament to the fact that it is not.

By pitying the rape victims, all you do is trivialize their struggle. Helping them out, observing their will to recovery and the great POWER they must have - is at least useful to us.

2nd Part - In response to Abortion:
Simply pro-life is again assuming that LIFE ITSELF has a right to live, simply by virtue of the fact they are alive. Yet we are so willing to kill plants, viruses and bacteria, simply because we need to do so, to survive and be healthy. We are also not so willing to enforce a law of NOT wasting sperm and eggs because it would hinder our freedom too much, even though it involves the slaughtering of countless life forms, albeit not technically a potential human yet. Given these observations, we cannot argue that JUST because or ONLY because the fetus is alive, it has a right to live. The reason we would want to keep fetuses alive must lie under different reason(s) as well.

A more advanced Pro-Life argument may want to further the point that when the "potential to being a human" is ascertained, people want to keep fetuses alive - they are our future children after all. They are our legacy, they are our tickets to immortality. Indeed, this would be an understandable argument, if we believe in such ideas. But even then, we are forced to answer a tough question:
Is there something that FORCES us to save fetuses, other than reasons we have chosen ourselves? (even though most of these reasons have been indoctrinations)

 

[Philocrat]

Since you post this question in the Value subsection of the Philosophy section, the question you should ask yourself now is: HOW WOULD PHILOSOPHERS RESPOND TO THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THIS THREAD? So far people are responding as if they are on a Day Time TV Talkshow. Maybe you should ask for this thread to be moved to the general discussion section. I think with this level of response justice would be better served there.

 

[GeD]

Since you post this question in the Value subsection of the Philosophy section, the question you should ask yourself now is: HOW WOULD PHILOSOPHERS RESPOND TO THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THIS THREAD? So far people are responding as if they are on a Day Time TV Talkshow. Maybe you should ask for this thread to be moved to the general discussion section. I think with this level of response justice would be better served there.

The more pertinent question is why you think that appealing to authority is important for these discussions. The people here may not be formally trained philosophers (or haven't even taken any philosophy), but the ideas posted by some in here are what philosophers have been thinking about, or encounter in the field.

If someone is posting Daytime TV talkshow arguments, they are easily destroyed by counterarguments made by the "knowledgeable philosophers" here.

 

[mapper]

this is how freddy kruger was made/born. Nothing good can come outta this.

 

[Bartholomew]

Philocrat, I don't see your problem. What reasoning do you object to? This thread is mostly about establishing values by comparison--do you object to this kind of argument? In value theory it is often necessary to ask for and share opinions. Not all philosophy takes the form of sterile and lofty ideals, and nor should it.