About degrees of freedom of fermions

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the degrees of freedom (dof) of fermions, particularly focusing on Dirac, Weyl, and Majorana spinors. Participants explore the implications of equations of motion on the independence of these degrees of freedom, as well as the relationship between different types of spinors. The conversation also touches on the concept of vector fields and their degrees of freedom in the context of gauge invariance.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that a massive Dirac spinor has four complex components, equating to eight degrees of freedom, but question how this relates to the four degrees of freedom attributed to electrons and positrons.
  • One participant suggests that the Dirac equation imposes stronger constraints than the Klein-Gordon equation, leading to the elimination of certain degrees of freedom.
  • Another participant seeks clarification on which specific degrees of freedom are set to zero by the Dirac equation and whether left-handed and right-handed components are independent.
  • Discussion includes the idea that the Dirac equation acts as a projection matrix, reducing the number of independent degrees of freedom in the spinor space.
  • One participant raises a question about the application of similar reasoning to vector fields, particularly regarding the degrees of freedom of massive vector fields and the implications of gauge invariance.
  • Another participant responds by discussing the relationship between gauge invariance and massive vector fields, noting that a mass term violates gauge invariance.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the Dirac equation on degrees of freedom, with some agreeing that it projects out certain components while others seek further clarification. The discussion on vector fields also reveals differing interpretations regarding gauge invariance and the physicality of longitudinal modes.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention specific mathematical forms and constraints but do not reach a consensus on the implications of these equations for the independence of degrees of freedom. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the application of these concepts to vector fields.

karlzr
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There are something I don't get about the degrees of freedom(dof).
For massive dirac spinor, there are four complex components or 8 dofs. But for electron/position, there are only 4 dofs in total ( electron up &down, position up&down). Does it mean the equation of motion eliminate the other four dofs? I don't think so if KG equation doesn't eliminate any dof.
Actually, if we write the EOM of massive dirac spinor in terms of left and right-handed weyl spinor, right-handed spinor can be expressed in terms of the derivative of left-handed one and vice versa. Does it mean the two helicity spinors weyl spinors are not independent? I hope not, since they represent distinct spins.
Then it comes to majorana spinor. We all know they can be described by only left-hand or right-hand weyl spinor. Two complex components amount to 4 dofs. But obviously there are only two dofs (spin up and down).
 
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karlzr said:
There are something I don't get about the degrees of freedom(dof).
For massive dirac spinor, there are four complex components or 8 dofs. But for electron/position, there are only 4 dofs in total ( electron up &down, position up&down). Does it mean the equation of motion eliminate the other four dofs?

Yes. The Dirac equation in momentum space is

##(p_\mu \gamma^\mu + m)u(p) = 0##.

This equation has two independent solutions for ##u(p)##. The other two complex degrees of freedom are forced to be zero.

karlzr said:
I don't think so if KG equation doesn't eliminate any dof.

Note that multiplying the above equation by ##(p_\mu \gamma^\mu - m)## gives

##(p^2 - m^2)u(p) = 0##

which is the Klein-Gordon equation in momentum space. So the Dirac equation is a much stronger constraint than the Klein-Gordon equation: when you impose the Dirac equation, you automatically impose the Klein-Gordon equation PLUS a constraint on the spinor structure.
 
Last edited:
The_Duck said:
Yes. The Dirac equation in momentum space is

##(p_\mu \gamma^\mu + m)u(p) = 0##.

This equation has two independent solutions for ##u(p)##. The other two complex degrees of freedom are forced to be zero.
Is it possible to come to this conclusion from pure algebra. I don't understand which two complex dofs are set to zero. Is it because the left-hand and right-hand components couple in Dirac equation so they are not independent of each other?

The_Duck said:
Note that multiplying the above equation by ##(p_\mu \gamma^\mu - m)## gives

##(p^2 - m^2)u(p) = 0##

which is the Klein-Gordon equation in momentum space. So the Dirac equation is a much stronger constraint than the Klein-Gordon equation: when you impose the Dirac equation, you automatically impose the Klein-Gordon equation PLUS a constraint on the spinor structure.
That makes sense.
 
karlzr said:
Is it possible to come to this conclusion from pure algebra. I don't understand which two complex dofs are set to zero.

Consider ##u(p)##, the Fourier component of the Dirac field with momentum ##p##. This is a complex four-component spinor, so we might think that it has four independent complex degrees of freedom. But in fact ##u(p)## must obey

##(p_\mu \gamma^\mu + m)u(p) = 0##

To see what sort of constraint this is, look at the case ##p = (m, 0, 0, 0)## (the case of a particle at rest). Then this equation looks like

##(m\gamma^0 + m) u(p) = 0##

I want to rewrite this as

##2m\frac{1}{2}(1 + \gamma^0)u(p) = 0##

because the matrix ##\frac{1}{2}(1 + \gamma^0)## is a projection matrix that projects onto a two-dimensional subspace of the four-dimensional vector space in which ##u(p)## lives. For example in one possible basis,

\gamma^0 = \left( \begin{array}{cccc} 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & -1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & -1 \end{array} \right)

so that

\frac{1}{2}(1 + \gamma^0) = \left( \begin{array}{cccc} 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \end{array} \right)

Therefore in this basis the equation

##2m\frac{1}{2}(1 + \gamma^0)u(p) = 0##

has the effect of setting the first two complex components of ##u(p)## to zero. This is one example of the fact that for any momentum ##p## the matrix

##(p_\mu \gamma^\mu + m)##

is essentially a projection matrix onto a two-dimensional subspace of the four-dimensional spinor space in which ##u(p)## lives, and so the Dirac equation has the effect of projecting out two of the four complex degrees of freedom of ##u(p)##.
 
The_Duck said:
This is one example of the fact that for any momentum ##p## the matrix

##(p_\mu \gamma^\mu + m)##

is essentially a projection matrix onto a two-dimensional subspace of the four-dimensional spinor space in which ##u(p)## lives, and so the Dirac equation has the effect of projecting out two of the four complex degrees of freedom of ##u(p)##.

That clears my doubt about fermions. Can this argument be applied to vector field, like photon? It's said the equation of motion projects out one dof. So there are only 3 dofs for massive vector fields (no gauge invariance for massive vector fields).
 
what do yo mean by vector fields?
The vector fields are introduced for gauge invariance...
 
ChrisVer said:
what do yo mean by vector fields?
The vector fields are introduced for gauge invariance...

But if the vector field is massive, then the longitudinal mode becomes physical and there is no gauge invariance. Mass term violates gauge invariance.
 

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