Against "interpretation" - Comments

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The forum discussion centers on the distinction between theories and interpretations in quantum mechanics (QM), specifically addressing theories T1 (Heisenberg) and T2 (Schrödinger) as equivalent models. Participants argue that interpretations, such as the Copenhagen and Many-Worlds interpretations, do not constitute separate theories but rather different descriptions of the same underlying mathematical framework. The conversation highlights the limitations of discussing interpretations that yield the same experimental predictions, suggesting that such debates often lack resolution. The consensus leans towards merging the concepts of theory and model rather than theory and interpretation to clarify the discourse in quantum physics.

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  • Familiarity with the Copenhagen and Many-Worlds interpretations of quantum mechanics.
  • Knowledge of mathematical frameworks in physics and their applications.
  • Awareness of the measurement problem in quantum mechanics.
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  • Research the mathematical foundations of quantum mechanics, focusing on the equivalence of different models.
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  • Study the differences between interpretations and theories in the context of quantum physics.
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Physicists, students of quantum mechanics, and researchers interested in the philosophical implications of theoretical models and interpretations in quantum physics.

  • #61
martinbn said:
@Auto-Didact I know you that you've already written a long post, but can you be a bit more specific. You are using a lot of phrases that I personally find hard to guess what they mean.
Good questions, I will try to answer each of them in a manner understandable to as wide an audience as possible; this means that I will use the most elementary notations that everyone who has taken calculus should be able to recognize.
martinbn said:
For example what is a canonical form based on symplectic geometric formulation
This is the key question, so I will spend most time on this one: stated simply in words first, it means that one can do geometry and calculus in an extended phase space, which topologically is a very special kind of manifold. I will illustrate this by utilizing analytical mechanics with phase space trajectory ##\Gamma(t)##, ##H(q,p,t)## and ##\delta S[\Gamma] = \delta \int_{t_0}^{t_1} L(q,\dot q, t) dt = 0## as a case study:

Let $$H=p\dot q- L \Leftrightarrow L=p\dot q- H$$It then immediately follows that $$\begin{align}
\delta \int_{t_0}^{t_1} L dt & = \delta \int_{t_0}^{t_1} (p \frac {dq}{dt}-H) dt \nonumber \\
& = \delta \int_{t_0}^{t_1} (p \frac {dq}{dt}-H\frac {dt}{dt}) dt \nonumber \\
& = \delta \int_{t_0}^{t_1} (p \frac {dq}{dt}+0\frac {dp}{dt}-H\frac {dt}{dt}) dt \nonumber \\
\end{align}$$where obviously ##L = p \frac {dq}{dt}+0\frac {dp}{dt}-H\frac {dt}{dt}##.

Now group the terms on the RHS of ##L## as two vectors, namely: $$\vec X = (p, 0, -H) \text { & } \vec Y = (\frac {dq}{dt},\frac {dp}{dt},\frac {dt}{dt})$$It then immediately follows that $$L = \vec X \cdot \vec Y$$Now we can continue our earlier train of thought: $$\begin{align}
\delta \int_{t_0}^{t_1} L dt & = \delta \int_{t_0}^{t_1} (p \frac {dq}{dt}+0\frac {dp}{dt}-H\frac {dt}{dt}) dt \nonumber \\
& = \delta \int_{t_0}^{t_1} \vec X \cdot \vec Y dt \nonumber \\
& = \delta \int_{\Gamma} \vec X \cdot d \vec {\Gamma} = 0 \nonumber \\
\end{align}$$ where the last equation is a line integral along the phase space trajectory ##\Gamma##.

Now one may say I just did a bit of algebra and rewrote things and yes, that actually is trivially true. However the more important question naturally arises: are the vector fields ##\vec X## and ##\vec Y## simply mathematics or are they physics? The answer: they are physics, more specifically they are properties of analytical mechanics in phase space, with ##\vec Y## being the displacement vector field in phase space.

More specifically, what is ##\vec X##? Remember that these are vectors in a 3 dimensional space ##(q,p,t)##. So let's just do some vector calculus on it, specifically, take the curl of ##-\vec X##: $$ \nabla \times (-\vec X) =
\begin{vmatrix}
\hat {\mathbf q} & \hat {\mathbf p} & \hat {\mathbf t} \\
\frac {\partial}{\partial q} & \frac {\partial}{\partial p} & \frac {\partial}{\partial t} \\
-\vec X_q & -\vec X_p & -\vec X_t
\end{vmatrix} = (\frac {\partial H}{\partial t},- \frac {\partial H}{\partial t}, 1)$$ Now if you haven't seen the miracle occur yet, squint your eyes and look at the last part ##\nabla \times (-\vec X) = (\frac {\partial H}{\partial t},- \frac {\partial H}{\partial t}, 1)##. More explicitly, recall ##\vec Y = (\frac {dq}{dt},\frac {dp}{dt},\frac {dt}{dt})##. It then immediately follows that $$(\frac {dq}{dt},\frac {dp}{dt},\frac {dt}{dt}) = (\frac {\partial H}{\partial t},- \frac {\partial H}{\partial t}, 1)$$ or more explicitly that ##\vec Y = - \nabla \times (\vec X)##. These are Hamilton's equations! In other words, ##- \vec X## is the vector potential of ##\vec Y##. There is even a gauge choice here making ##X_q = p## and ##X_p = 0##, but I will not go into that.

Now Hamilton's principle - i.e. that ##\delta \int_{t_0}^{t_1} Ldt = 0## - follows naturally from Stokes' theorem: $$ \begin{align} \delta \int_{\Gamma} \vec X \cdot d \vec {\Gamma} & = \int_{\Gamma} \vec X \cdot d \vec {\Gamma} - \int_{\Gamma} \vec X \cdot d \vec {\Gamma'} \nonumber \\
& = \oint_{\Sigma} \nabla \times \vec X \cdot d \vec {\Sigma} \nonumber \\
\end{align}$$ where ##\Sigma## is a closed surface between the two trajectories ##\Gamma## and ##\Gamma'##. From vector calculus we know that it is necessary that ##\oint_{\Sigma} \nabla \times \vec X \cdot d \vec {\Sigma} = 0## because ##\vec Y = - \nabla \times \vec X## and this means that ##\nabla \times \vec X## is tangent to ##\Sigma## verifying our proof that the integral vanishes.

In other words, Hamilton's principle is just an implicit consequence of ##\vec Y = - \nabla \times \vec X##, i.e. of Hamilton's equations in phase space. If ##\vec Y## has a vector potential ##- \vec X##, then ##\vec Y## is automatically a solenoidal vector field, i.e. $$\vec Y = - \nabla \times \vec X \Leftrightarrow \nabla \cdot (\nabla \times \vec X) = 0 \Leftrightarrow \nabla \cdot \vec Y = 0$$demonstrating that variational principles w.r.t. action - indeed even the very existence of calculus of variations as a mathematical theory - is purely a side effect of Liouville's theorem applying to Hamiltonian evolution in phase space; that in a nutshell, is symplectic geometry in it's most simple formulation.

Lastly, if you remove the requirement of Liouville's theorem, you leave the domain of Hamiltonian mechanics and automatically arrive at nonlinear dynamical systems theory, practically in its full glory; this is theoretical mechanics at its very finest.
martinbn said:
say what is that for the heat or the Laplace equations?
As DEs, the heat equation ##\nabla^2 u = \alpha \frac {\partial u} {\partial t}##, the Laplace equation ##\nabla^2 u = 0## and the Poisson equation ##\nabla^2 u = w## are all elliptical PDEs, meaning all influences are instantaneous (cf. action at a distance in Newtonian gravity). Carrying out the phase space analysis goes a bit too far for now.

However it is immediately clear upon inspection of the equations that the heat equation is a more general Poisson equation, which is itself a more general Laplace equation; as stated above this is what is meant by saying the one is an implicit form of a more explicit form. More, generally all of them are all special instances of the more general Helmholtz equation which has as its most explicit form $$\nabla^2 u + k^2 u = w$$It is the set of all solutions of an implicit DE, i.e. the set ##U## containing all possible functions ##u##, which decides what the explicit form of the DE is. Unfortunately, this set is typically for quite obvious reasons unknown.

These relationships between DEs becomes even more obvious once one applies these same mathematical techniques to the study of sciences other than physics, where these differential equations naturally tend to reappear in their more explicit forms. If one steps back - instead of mindlessly trying to solve the equation - an entire taxonomy with families of differential equations slowly becomes apparent. Actually we don't even have to leave physics for this, since the Navier-Stokes equation from hydrodynamics and geometrodynamic equations tend to rear their heads in lots of places in physics.
martinbn said:
What is the problem with having axioms such as the Born rule?
The answer should become obvious once rephrased in the following manner: What is the problem with having the Born rule - a distinctly non-holomorphic statement - for needing to be able to understand what an analytic differential equation is describing?
martinbn said:
What is an implicit form of a differential equation and why is the Schrödinger equation implicit?
An implicit form is as I stated above: the Laplace equation is an implicit form of the Poisson equation with ##w = 0## implicitly.
martinbn said:
Generally what makes the Schrödinger equation so different from any other to say that the theory has a problem?
There is nothing special about the Schrödinger equation, that is my point. What has a problem is orthodox QM, which consists of a mishmash of SE (DE) + Born rule (ad hoc, non-analytic)+ measurement problem + etc. No other canonical physical theory has the mathematical structure where all consequences of the theory aren't directly derivable from the DE and the mathematics (i.e. analysis, vector calculus, differential geometry, etc).
martinbn said:
What does it mean for a differential equation to be incomplete/complete?
It means that stated in it's implicit form there are terms missing, i.e. implicitly made to be equal to zero and therefore seemingly not present, while when rewritten into the most explicit form the terms suddenly appear as out of thin air: the terms were there all along, they were just hidden through simplification by having written the equation in its implicit form.
martinbn said:
And what does it mean to complete it?
It means to identify the missing terms which are implicitly made to equal zero; this is done purely mathematically through trial and error algebraic reformulation, by discovering the explicit form of the equation. There is no straightforward routine way of doing it, it cannot be done by pure deduction; it is instead an art form, just like knowing to be able to handle nonlinear differential equations.

Completing an equation is a similar but not identical methodology to extending an equation; extending is often mentally more taxing since it tends to involve completely rethinking what 'known' operators actually are conceptually, i.e. just knowing basic algebra alone isn't sufficient. Extending is how Dirac was able to derive his equation purely by guesswork; he wasn't just blindly guessing, he was instead carefully intuiting the underlying hidden structure Lorentzian structure in the d'Alembertian's implicit form and then boldly marching forward using nothing but analysis and algebra.
martinbn said:
Say why is the Schrödinger equation incomplete and why are the equations from classical physics complete?
The Schrödinger equation once completed in the manner described above actually has the Madelung form with an extra term, namely the quantum potential. This is purely an effect of studying the equation as an object in the theory of differential equations and writing it in the most general form without simplifying. I'll give a derivation some other time, if deemed necessary.
 
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  • #62
atyy said:
But what about comments like:

http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~hooft101/lectures/basisqft.pdf
"Often, authors forget to mention the first, very important, step in this logical procedure: replace the classical field theory one wishes to quantize by a strictly finite theory. Assuming that physical structures smaller than a certain size will not be important for our considerations, we replace the continuum of three-dimensional space by a discrete but dense lattice of points ... If this lattice is sufficiently dense, the solutions we are interested in will hardly depend on the details of this lattice, and so, the classical system will resume Lorentz invariance and the speed of light will be the practical limit for the velocity of perturbances."

https://arxiv.org/abs/1106.4501
"Since, emergent rotational and translational symmetry and locality of couplings is both common and familiar, let us start by assuming we have a continuum quantum field theory with these properties, but without insisting on Lorentz invariance ... This problem is quite general in weakly coupled field theories for multiple particle species, but at strong coupling the flow to Lorentz invariance can be robust."

If you read the whole page and the top of the next of t'Hooft he points out the whole goal in quantization is to make sure we obtain a Lorentz invariant theory in the continuum limit, I'm not sure how one particular human-made method of promoting a classical theory to a quantum theory (which is not the only way) requires some step whose effects have to not matter in the final result (continuum limit) does in any way "deny things like relativity as fundamental", just as say the use of ghosts in path integral quantization don't deny spin-statistics as being fundamental.
 
  • #63
Auto-Didact said:
One thing needs to be made crystal clear: the argument I'm making is as I said from a pure mathematics or mathematical physics viewpoint.
That is crystal clear in light of unbelievable statements such as
Auto-Didact said:
The principle of least action is directly derivable from Stokes theorem; calculus of variations is not an independent framework but a direct consequence of not taking exterior calculus and differential forms to heart.
I've never heard someone go this far outside the bounds and try to pretend we can derive things like the POLA from anything other than something equivalent to Newton's laws, let alone Stokes' theorem, this is an even worse misunderstanding than thinking we should be able to derive the Born rule (unless you unquestioningly assume either the insanely complicated and specialized non-relativistic Schrödinger equation or these weird completely unjustified concepts like energy and momentum to then get the Schrödinger equation which normal QM actually defines as charges from those symmetry conservation laws you don't like, then you can at least pretend you are deriving things, but to pretend we can derive the POLA is as out there as pretending we can derive Newton's first law...). Statements such as

Auto-Didact said:
What has a problem is orthodox QM, which consists of a mishmash of SE (DE) + Born rule (ad hoc, non-analytic)+ measurement problem + etc. No other canonical physical theory has the mathematical structure where all consequences of the theory aren't directly derivable from the DE and the mathematics (i.e. analysis, vector calculus, differential geometry, etc).

illustrate a deep misunderstanding of the most elementary claims in physics, no amount of mathematics is going to alleviate the fact that we need to assume some primitive notions in physical theories, it's simply a shocking misunderstanding to claim things like the POLA can be derived from mathematics...
 
  • #64
bolbteppa said:
If you read the whole page and the top of the next of t'Hooft he points out the whole goal in quantization is to make sure we obtain a Lorentz invariant theory in the continuum limit, I'm not sure how one particular human-made method of promoting a classical theory to a quantum theory (which is not the only way) requires some step whose effects have to not matter in the final result (continuum limit) does in any way "deny things like relativity as fundamental", just as say the use of ghosts in path integral quantization don't deny spin-statistics as being fundamental.

It means that a theory without fundamental Lorentz invariance may be indistinguishable in the experimentally relevant regime from a theory with fundamental Lorentz invariance. That is what the quote from Raman Sundrum also means.

Further on, 't Hooft also points out that some of our current theories may not have a continuum limit. At the physics level of rigour, QCD is thought to have a continuum limit, but QED is thought to have a Landau pole.
p50: "If a theory is not asymptotically free, but has only small coupling parameters, the perturbation expansion formally diverges, and the continuum limit formally does not exist."
p58: "Landau concluded that quantum field theories such as QED have no true continuum limit because of this pole. Gell-Mann and Low suspected, however, ... it is not even known whether Quantum Field Theory can be reformulated accurately enough to decide"
 
  • #65
bolbteppa said:
I've never heard someone go this far outside the bounds and try to pretend we can derive things like the POLA from anything other than something equivalent to Newton's laws, let alone Stokes' theorem, this is an even worse misunderstanding than thinking we should be able to derive the Born rule (unless you unquestioningly assume either the insanely complicated and specialized non-relativistic Schrödinger equation or these weird completely unjustified concepts like energy and momentum to then get the Schrödinger equation which normal QM actually defines as charges from those symmetry conservation laws you don't like, then you can at least pretend you are deriving things, but to pretend we can derive the POLA is as out there as pretending we can derive Newton's first law...).
Demonstrate to me purely mathematically how the calculus of variations is not a direct consequence of Stokes' theorem.
bolbteppa said:
Statements such as ... illustrate a deep misunderstanding of the most elementary claims in physics, no amount of mathematics is going to alleviate the fact that we need to assume some primitive notions in physical theories, it's simply a shocking misunderstanding to claim things like the POLA can be derived from mathematics...
There is no misunderstanding here, I perfectly understand the conventional way of understanding these matters; I just consciously choose to reject it for different - mathematical, theoretical and methodological - reasons as well as based on my knowledge of the history of physics, where I see the same type of mistakes keep getting made again and again.

I believe that the contemporary conventions in theoretical physics are possibly mistaken; this seems most obvious to me because, many theoreticians, when pushed, do not seem to really know anything in depth about how the unconventional theories of pure higher mathematics feature in the foundations of physics, except for trivial procedural knowledge i.e. how to mindlessly carry out some calculations.

When asked legitimate questions about mathematical issues w.r.t. physics they tend to either go off on irrelevant tangents, blatantly avoid the question, just assume that the problem is not a real problem, or worse, assume without any verification that it is already solved. Even worse, there are some who really only truly seem to be worried about having an academic job and the social status gained from their career; this while theoretical physics as a discipline continues on in its current period of stagnation.
 
  • #66
atyy said:
It means that a theory without fundamental Lorentz invariance may be indistinguishable in the experimentally relevant regime from a theory with fundamental Lorentz invariance. That is what the quote from Raman Sundrum also means.

Further on, 't Hooft also points out that some of our current theories may not have a continuum limit. At the physics level of rigour, QCD is thought to have a continuum limit, but QED is thought to have a Landau pole.
p50: "If a theory is not asymptotically free, but has only small coupling parameters, the perturbation expansion formally diverges, and the continuum limit formally does not exist."
p58: "Landau concluded that quantum field theories such as QED have no true continuum limit because of this pole. Gell-Mann and Low suspected, however, ... it is not even known whether Quantum Field Theory can be reformulated accurately enough to decide"

My bad/developing understanding is the latter points are stem from the necessity of renormalisation, a necessity also in classical electromagnetism (originally motivating renormalisation in qed), the necessity of which is due to the fact that we unavoidably (due to relativity) work with point particles, until string theory came along as the first (and only :DD) legitimate way to potentially bypass the point particle model which is still being discovered, with these lattice models being nothing but approximation methods, and none of this in any sense questioning relativity.
 
  • #67
Auto-Didact said:
I just consciously choose to reject it

That says it all.
 
  • #68
bolbteppa said:
That says it all.
Congratulations, you know how to generate soundbites! Say, do you actually have any original thoughts at all or have you just mastered the art of repeatedly parroting consensus opinions?

There are good mathematical reasons for questioning the conclusions of the picture bestowed upon us by Wilsonian EFT, namely the identification of a deeper mathematical theory of renormalization instead of the conventional version Wilsonians cling to; this however goes way off-topic from this thread.

In any case, you haven't answered my mathematical challenge, so if that's all you have to say, then I accept your concession.
 
  • #70
Auto-Didact said:
Demonstrate to me purely mathematically how the calculus of variations is not a direct consequence of Stokes' theorem.

That's not how it works. You made the positive claim, so it's up to you to prove it. If you have such a proof, or a reference to one, feel free to PM it to me.

bolbteppa said:
My bad/developing understanding

bolbteppa said:
That says it all.

Given that you admit your understanding is bad/developing, you should not be so quickly dismissive of what other people post.

Both of you are now banned from further posting in this thread.
 
  • #72
bhobba said:
Indeed. QED is even thought to be trivial, but I do not think anyone has proven it rigorously. If so that is strong evidence it could only be an effective theory - and of course we now know it is since its part of the electro-weak theory at high enough energies.
DarMM said:
It's a genuinely uncertain issue. There are known cases where adding an ##SU(2)## gauge field to otherwise trivial theories renders them non-trivial and there are numerical simulations and simplified or limiting theories suggesting this might be what occurs in the Electroweak theory. So we currently don't actually know if the standard model is trivial.

Actual triviality just means that the continuum limit of the lattice theory is trivial. It says nothing about nonexistence of the continuum theory. See the discussions here and here.
atyy said:
Further on, 't Hooft also points out that some of our current theories may not have a continuum limit. At the physics level of rigour, QCD is thought to have a continuum limit, but QED is thought to have a Landau pole.
p50: "If a theory is not asymptotically free, but has only small coupling parameters, the perturbation expansion formally diverges, and the continuum limit formally does not exist."
p58: "Landau concluded that quantum field theories such as QED have no true continuum limit because of this pole. Gell-Mann and Low suspected, however, ... it is not even known whether Quantum Field Theory can be reformulated accurately enough to decide"
Note that the Landau pole of QED is at physically irrelevant energies, while QCD has (due to infrared issues) a Landau pole at experimentally accessible energies! Thus a Landau pole says nothing about existence or nonexistence, only about troubles in certain renormalization schemes.
 
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  • #73
A. Neumaier said:
Actual triviality just means that the continuum limit of the lattice theory is trivial. It says nothing about nonexistence of the continuum theory. See the discussions here and here.
That's certainly true, were we saying otherwise?

Do you mean there might be a non-trivial continuum theory that is not the limit of lattice approximations?

The kind of thing suggested in Gallavottiv and Rivasseau's review paper from 1984 for example.
 
  • #74
DarMM said:
That's certainly true, were we saying otherwise?
atyy's statement sounded like it. He thinks that Landau poles are the death blow to a continuum theory and wants to substitute finite lattices for the true, covariant theories. But in fact the Landau pole of QED just says that the lattice approximation of QED is always poor, so it is actually the death blow to his lattice philosophy. We had discussed this in several threads:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/lattice-qed.943462/
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/does-qft-have-problems.912943/
DarMM said:
Do you mean there might be a non-trivial continuum theory that is not the limit of lattice approximations?.
Yes. I am convinced that ##\phi_4^4## and ##QED_4## exist, though I don't know how to prove it. But I have been collecting ideas and techniques for a long time, and one day I might be prepared to try...

Klauder has some nonrigorous ideas how to do perturbation theory from a different starting theory: https://arxiv.org/abs/1811.05328 and many earlier papers propagating the same idea. Nobody seems to take up Klauder's challenge and tries; hence I don't know whether it has merit. Do you see any obvious faults in his proposal?
 
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  • #75
Demystifier said:
Or perhaps the theory is just the set of final measurable predictions of T1 and T2, while all the other “auxiliary” elements of T1 and T2 are the “interpretation”? It doesn’t make sense either, because there is no theory in physics that deals only with measurable predictions. All physics theories have some “auxiliary” elements that are an integral part of the theory.
I disagree with the T1 and T2 analogy entirely, but particularly with this paragraph here.

Regardless of the existence of an interpretation-free theory, it is useful to distinguish the parts of a model which can be tested with the scientific method from the parts that cannot. If we don’t use the word “theory” for the parts which can be scientifically tested and “interpretation” for the parts which cannot be tested with the scientific method, then what terms should we use to distinguish them? We would need to coin some new terms for the same concepts.

No, the standard terminology is fine. It is pointless to change the names since the distinction between testable and untestable is scientifically important and captured in the current terminology.
 
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  • #76
Dale said:
If we don’t use the word “theory” for the parts which can be scientifically tested and “interpretation” for the parts which cannot be tested
But this is not standard terminology. Theory is the formal, purely mathematical part, and interpretation tells how this formal part relates to reality / observation. In simple cases, the interpretation is simply done by choosing the right words for the formal concepts, but in relativity, more is needed since it is no longer intuitive, and in quantum mechanics, much more is needed since the meaning is - a mess.
 
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  • #77
I think the whole ordeal started from QM being a theory based on experiments and model fitting more or less. The interpretation is needed because the theory does not show the origin of mass or charge ...etc. They must be emergent from a more fundamental concept.
 
  • #78
A. Neumaier said:
Theory is the formal, purely mathematical part, and interpretation tells how this formal part relates to reality / observation.
I disagree. The theory must include the relation to observation. Otherwise it is useless. The problem comes with interpretations imposing some sort of unneseccary ”reality” on top of this, which unless you can provide observational differences will always remain purely philosophical.
 
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  • #79
Orodruin said:
I disagree. The theory must include the relation to observation. Otherwise it is useless.
It is the interpretation that makes a theory useful.

Classical Hamiltonian mechanics is surely a theory. But it needs interpretation to be used: How to interpret energy in terms of reality/observation is clearly not part of the theory.
 
  • #80
A. Neumaier said:
atyy's statement sounded like it. He thinks that Landau poles are the death blow to a continuum theory and wants to substitute finite lattices for the true, covariant theories. But in fact the Landau pole of QED just says that the lattice approximation of QED is always poor, so it is actually the death blow to his lattice philosophy. We had discussed this in several threads:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/lattice-qed.943462/
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/does-qft-have-problems.912943/
Yes. I am convinced that ##\phi_4^4## and ##QED_4## exist, though I don't know how to prove it. But I have been collecting ideas and techniques for a long time, and one day I might be prepared to try...

Klauder has some nonrigorous ideas how to do perturbation theory from a different starting theory: https://arxiv.org/abs/1811.05328 and many earlier papers propagating the same idea. Nobody seems to take up Klauder's challenge and tries; hence I don't know whether it has merit. Do you see any obvious faults in his proposal?
Then just to be clear I was stating something else, that for theories involving ##SU(2)## gauge fields there are strong arguments that they are not trivial, so I was rather referencing some evidence against triviality for the Standard Model.

However I share your doubts about typical arguments against ##\phi^{4}_{4}## and ##QED_4## as I don't think the Landau pole is a particularly strong argument. It's just a perturbative suggestion that a particular approach to the continuum limit is blocked. Alan Sokal's PHD thesis "An Alternate Constructive Approach to the ##\phi^{4}_{3}## Quantum Field Theory, and a Possible Destructive Approach to ##\phi^{4}_{4}##" has some interesting material on this. He uses the sum of bubble graphs to argue for triviality of the continuum.

For anybody reading there is the possibility that there are non-trivial continuum ##QED_4## and ##\phi^{4}_{4}## theories. It's simply that they aren't the ##a \rightarrow 0## limit of a lattice theory and so the triviality of the lattice theories when taking the continuum limit isn't a definitive proof of triviality.

My personal gut intuition is that is that ##\phi^{4}_{4}## is trivial on its own, but not when embedded in the electroweak theory. I suspect ##QED_4## is not trivial as you do.

In general I strongly suspect that properly controlled non-perturbative quantum field theory will show that plenty of folk wisdom about QFT is just wrong. For example it might emerge that having a simple Higgs is the only way of having massive gauge bosons that has a nonperturbative definition and alternates like technicolor aren't defined. Similarly many parameters that look like they can take any value perturbatively and non-rigorously might be restricted to certain ranges non-perturbatively. Also the Standard Model might be much more natural and less adhoc seeming, perhaps only theories of its form exist non-perturbatively in 4D.

Basically we're currently operating under the assumption that the space of QFTs in 4D is identical to to the space of field theories that are perturbatively renormalizable. However this is incorrect as ##Gross-Neveu_3## is pertrubatively non-renormalizable and yet non-perturbatively exists.
 
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  • #81
DarMM said:
Then just to be clear I was stating something else, that for theories involving ##SU(2)## gauge fields there are strong arguments that they are not trivial, so I was rather referencing some evidence against triviality for the Standard Model.

However I share your doubts about typical arguments against ##\phi^{4}_{4}## and ##QED_4## as I don't think the Landau pole is a particularly strong argument. It's just a perturbative suggestion that a particular approach to the continuum limit is blocked. Alan Sokal's PHD thesis "An Alternate Constructive Approach to the ##\phi^{4}_{3}## Quantum Field Theory, and a Possible Destructive Approach to ##\phi^{4}_{4}##" has some interesting material on this. He uses the sum of bubble graphs to argue for triviality of the continuum.

For anybody reading there is the possibility that there are non-trivial continuum ##QED_4## and ##\phi^{4}_{4}## theories. It's simply that they aren't the ##a \rightarrow 0## limit of a lattice theory and so the triviality of the lattice theories when taking the continuum limit isn't a definitive proof of triviality.

My personal gut intuition is that is that ##\phi^{4}_{4}## is trivial on its own, but not when embedded in the electroweak theory. I suspect ##QED_4## is not trivial as you do.

In general I strongly suspect that properly controlled non-perturbative quantum field theory will show that plenty of folk wisdom about QFT is just wrong. For example it might emerge that having a simple Higgs is the only way of having massive gauge bosons that has a nonperturbative definition and alternates like technicolor aren't defined. Similarly many parameters that look like they can take any value perturbatively and non-rigorously might be restricted to certain ranges non-perturbatively. Also the Standard Model might be much more natural and less adhoc seeming, perhaps only theories of its form exist non-perturbatively in 4D.

Basically we're currently operating under the assumption that the space of QFTs in 4D is identical to to the space of field theories that are perturbatively renormalizable. However this is incorrect as ##Gross-Neveu_3## is pertrubatively non-renormalizable and yet non-perturbatively exists.

Sure I agree. That has never been the question. The question is whether a lattice model (at finite spacing) could provide a non-perturbative definition for the currently successful experimental predictions of QED, QCD and the standard model. If that is a reasonable research programme (at least as reasonable as looking for a continuum 4D QED theory), then one can say that the standard model may be consistent with non-relativistic QM. It is not an "either-or" question. One could believe that both research programmes are reasonable.

Example of papers within a research programme for a lattice standard model are:
https://arxiv.org/abs/0912.2560
https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.11171
 
  • #82
atyy said:
Sure I agree. That has never been the question. The question is whether a lattice model (at finite spacing) could provide a non-perturbative definition for the currently successful experimental predictions of QED, QCD and the standard model. If that is a reasonable research programme (at least as reasonable as looking for a continuum 4D QED theory), then one can say that the standard model may be consistent with non-relativistic QM. It is not an "either-or" question. One could believe that both research programmes are reasonable.
I agree, when I said numerical results in my initial post I was referring to Lattice theories and you'll find plenty of discussions about Lattice versions of the Standard Model suggesting non-triviality in Callaway's paper that I referenced. I also consider both programs reasonable.
 
  • #83
A. Neumaier said:
But this is not standard terminology. Theory is the formal, purely mathematical part, and interpretation tells how this formal part relates to reality / observation.
That is not how I have seen the distinction. Do you have an authoritative reference for this usage? (What you are calling “theory” I have seen called “mathematical framework”)
 
  • #84
A. Neumaier said:
It is the interpretation that makes a theory useful.
I disagree again. It is the prediction of measurable quantities that makes a theory useful.

A. Neumaier said:
Classical Hamiltonian mechanics is surely a theory. But it needs interpretation to be used: How to interpret energy in terms of reality/observation is clearly not part of the theory.
It certainly does not need interpretation to be used and tested. You do not need to give a "deeper meaning" to the Hamiltonian to test Hamiltonian mechanics or to give a meaning to why the Poisson brackets with the Hamiltonian give the time evolution of a system. You need a description of phase space, an expression for the Hamiltonian, and the measurable predictions resulting from it.
 
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  • #85
A. Neumaier said:
But this is not standard terminology. Theory is the formal, purely mathematical part, and interpretation tells how this formal part relates to reality / observation. In simple cases, the interpretation is simply done by choosing the right words for the formal concepts
Dale said:
That is not how I have seen the distinction. Do you have an authoritative reference for this usage? (What you are calling “theory” I have seen called “mathematical framework”)
It is surely implicit in the discussions of 1926-1928 about the interpretation of quantum mechanics by their originators. Schrödinger's and Heisenberg's theories were proved to be equivalent (i.e., the mathematical frameworks were interconvertible), but views about the interpretation differed widely. Moreover, different interpretations even made different predictions, and the analysis turned out to give a harmonizing Copenhagen interpretation, both relaxing the incomatible hardliner positions that Born and Schrödinger originally had.

But to give precise references - if you still want them - I need to do some research.
A. Neumaier said:
It is the interpretation that makes a theory useful.

Classical Hamiltonian mechanics is surely a theory. But it needs interpretation to be used: How to interpret energy in terms of reality/observation is clearly not part of the theory.
Orodruin said:
I disagree again. It is the prediction of measurable quantities that makes a theory useful.

[Classical Hamiltonian mechanics] certainly does not need interpretation to be used and tested. You do not need to give a "deeper meaning" to the Hamiltonian to test Hamiltonian mechanics or to give a meaning to why the Poisson brackets with the Hamiltonian give the time evolution of a system. You need a description of phase space, an expression for the Hamiltonian, and the measurable predictions resulting from it.

As I said, in simple cases, the interpretation is simply calling the concepts by certain names. In the case of classical Hamiltonian mechanics, ##p## is called momentum, ##q## is called position, ##t## is called time, and everyone is supposed to know what this means, i.e., to have an associated interpretation in terms of reality.

Of course, to be useful, a theory must not only have an interpretation but also give valid predictions of measurable results.
 
  • #86
A. Neumaier said:
But to give precise references - if you still want them - I need to do some research.
I would appreciate that and I will look for similar explicit definitions as well. My “implicit” definitions are quite opposed to yours.

To me what is scientifically important is the distinction between the portions of a model which can be experimentally tested using the scientific method and the portions that cannot. I don’t care too much about the terminology, but that distinction is important so it should have some corresponding terminology. In my usage that would be “theory” vs “interpretation”.

What words would you personally use to make that distinction?
 
  • #87
A. Neumaier said:
As I said, in simple cases, the interpretation is simply calling the concepts by certain names. In the case of classical Hamiltonian mechanics, ##p## is called momentum, ##q## is called position, ##t## is called time, and everyone is supposed to know what this means, i.e., to have an associated interpretation in terms of reality.

Sorry, but in my mind this is severely twisting the meaning of the word "interpretation" in this discussion.
 
  • #88
Dale said:
To me what is scientifically important is the distinction between the portions of a model which can be experimentally tested using the scientific method and the portions that cannot. I don’t care too much about the terminology, but that distinction is important so it should have some corresponding terminology. In my usage that would be “theory” vs “interpretation”.

What words would you personally use to make that distinction?
objective = testable and subjective = untestable.

If theory = testable and interpretation = untestable there would have not been nearly 100 years of dispute about the interpretation issues.
 
  • #89
Orodruin said:
I disagree. The theory must include the relation to observation. Otherwise it is useless.
It is the interpretation that makes a theory useful.

Orodruin said:
Sorry, but in my mind this is severely twisting the meaning of the word "interpretation" in this discussion.
I just observe that Schrödinger and Born thought differently about the issue. In 1926, when the interpretation problems in quantum mechanics became relevant, there was good theory, and there was disagreement about the relation to observation in general - just pieces that were undisputable but others that were highly contentuous. Indeed, the meaning of the relation to observation changed during the first few years.
 
  • #90
A. Neumaier said:
It is the interpretation that makes a theory useful.
Even using your definitions I would disagree with this claim. With your definition it is only the so-called “minimal interpretation” that makes the theory useful. All other interpretations are subjective per your terms.
 
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