Did ancient Israel have a strict policy on genital grabbing?

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The discussion revolves around Deuteronomy 25:11-12, which states that if a woman intervenes in a fight between two men by grabbing the attacker by the genitals, her hand should be cut off without pity. Participants express surprise at the specificity of this biblical prohibition, with some humorously linking it to modern cultural references. The conversation explores interpretations of the text, questioning whether the law is about maintaining fairness in fights or about the implications of reproductive harm. Some argue that the prohibition reflects a concern for lineage and fertility, while others suggest it may stem from cultural norms regarding modesty and respect. The thread also touches on the absurdity of the law and its implications in contemporary contexts, leading to a broader discussion on the relevance of such ancient rules today.
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The Bible said:
If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her.

Someone just mentioned this to me and I'd never heard it before. Not funny obviously in that people's hands probably literally got cut off, but funny in that there is so specific a prohibition of this. I suppose the ancient Israelites probably wouldn't appreciate Thelma and Louise...
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Is it clear whose genitals she is grabbing?

The next line is calling for funding for the avagadro project
"You shall have a perfect and just weight, ... that your days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD your God is giving you."
 
Honda is the only vehicle ever mention in the bible. A certain verse states; Ye shalll all be of one Accord.

boo boo:devil:
 
But Jesus drove a Christ-ler.
And King David was a biker - David's Triumph was heard throughout the land.
 
mgb_phys said:
But Jesus drove a Christ-ler.
And King David was a biker - David's Triumph was heard throughout the land.

:smile:
 
Oh boy...

Did you know that Peter, Paul, and Mary, liked to sing together?
 
:smile:

Thanks guys, I needed a good laugh.
 
CaptainQuasar said:
Someone just mentioned this to me and I'd never heard it before. Not funny obviously in that people's hands probably literally got cut off, but funny in that there is so specific a prohibition of this. I suppose the ancient Israelites probably wouldn't appreciate Thelma and Louise...
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This is an urban legend. However, the Accord joke was really funny.
 
wildman said:
This is an urban legend.

I am not sure if I understand what you mean. What is an urban legend?
 
  • #10
Borek said:
I am not sure if I understand what you mean. What is an urban legend?

Oh sorry. I assumed everyone knows that American idiom. It means something that is not true but spread on the Internet as true.
 
  • #11
Deuteronomy 25:11-12

25:12 then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her.

From http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0525.htm:
וְקַצֹּתָה, אֶת-כַּפָּהּ: לֹא תָחוֹס, עֵינֶךָ.
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The translation of the word in verse 12 as "hand" is highly doubtful.

The word "yad", which does mean "hand", is used twice in verse 11, including for the wife's hand (the same hand!).

Verse 12 uses the word "cuppoh", which means palm (as in palm-tree).

In this verse, it has been translated "hand", but that is almost certainly incorrect, since the word "yad" would have been repeated if "hand" was intended again.

It seems something else is to be cut off, or shaved, but the idiomatic meaning of the word has been forgotten.

See eg, from the Oxford Journal of Semitic studies: http://jss.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/49/1/47
 
  • #12
wildman said:
Oh sorry. I assumed everyone knows that American idiom. It means something that is not true but spread on the Internet as true.

No, I know what an urban legend is, what I don't know is which part of the story is an urban legend :smile:
 
  • #13
Borek said:
No, I know what an urban legend is, what I don't know is which part of the story is an urban legend :smile:

The myth path is that if a women touches another mans genitals you should cut off her hand because she has doen something sexual.

The real meaning is probably that you must not attack another mans genitals ( ie punch below the belt). The women protecting her husband part is to show that even in the most extreme circumstances, ie. you are a weak and feeble women helping to defend her husband you must still not attack someones dangly bits.
 
  • #14
Uh, did you guys notice the link that goes directly to the NKJV translation of the Bible, which is where the text above comes from? NKJV is usually acclaimed as one of the best translations, which is why I chose it. No internet urban legends here; at best a common error amongst English Biblical scholars as tiny-tim's Journal of Semitic Studies article suggests.

And P.S., you can flip through all the other translations using the dropdown on that site if you're curious.
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  • #15
mgb_phys said:
The myth path is that if a women touches another mans genitals you should cut off her hand because she has doen something sexual.

Now listen up guys, Moses said to Israel, this is very serious stuff. And to be really sure you get it right, let me translate it in as many versions of English as possible...


New International Version: 11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

New American Standard Bible: 11 If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, 12 then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

The Message: 11-12 When two men are in a fight and the wife of the one man, trying to rescue her husband, grabs the genitals of the man hitting him, you are to cut off her hand. Show no pity.

Amplified Bible: 11 When men strive together one with another and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband out of the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes the other man by the private parts, 12 Then you shall cut off her hand; your eyes shall not pity her.

New Living Translation: 11 If two Israelite men get into a fight and the wife of one tries to rescue her husband by grabbing the testicles of the other man, 12 you must cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

King James Version: 11 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: 12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.

English Standard Version: 11 When men fight with one another and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, 12 then you shall cut off her hand. Your eye shall have no pity.

Contemporary English Version: 11 If two men are fighting, and the wife of one man tries to rescue her husband by grabbing the other man's private parts, 12 you must cut off her hand. Don't have any mercy.

New King James Version: 11 If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, 12 then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her.

New Century Version: 11 If two men are fighting and one man's wife comes to save her husband from his attacker, grabbing the attacker by his sex organs, 12 you must cut off her hand. Show her no mercy.

21st Century King James Version: 11 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand and taketh him by the secret parts, 12 then thou shalt cut off her hand; thine eye shall not pity her.

American Standard Version: 11 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets; 12 then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall have no pity.

Young's Literal Translation: 11 When men strive together, one with another, and the wife of the one hath drawn near to deliver her husband out of the hand of his smiter, and hath put forth her hand, and laid hold on his secrets, 12 then thou hast cut off her hand, thine eye doth not spare.

Darby Translation: 11 When men fight together one with another, and the wife of the one come near to rescue her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and stretch out her hand, and seize him by his secret parts, 12 thou shalt cut off her hand; thine eye shall not spare.

New International Reader's Version: 11 Suppose two men are fighting. And the wife of one of them comes to save her husband from his attacker. So she reaches out and grabs hold of his sex organs. 12 Then you must cut off her hand. Don't feel sorry for her.

New International Version - UK: 11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

Today's New International Version: 11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.


Got that?
 
  • #16
Yes the important part is 'why'
Is it a law because your wife touching another mans rude bits is rude or does it really mean targeting a mans dangly bits is against the rules of fair fight - even if you are a defending your husband.

It does have real modern implications. Would using depleted uranium rounds or chemcial weapons such as agent orange which might have reproductive side effects be against god's law?
 
  • #17
I assumed that it had your 2nd meaning, that groin injuries aren't fighting fair; that's what I meant by saying the ancient Israelites wouldn't appreciate Thelma and Louise, because of the frequency with which guys get kicked in the junk.

(That's why it seemed so funny to me, because it's a Biblical prohibition against comedic groin injuries, complete with the imprecation "And don't feel sorry for her, she's getting what she deserves." Can't you imagine some wizened desert tribal elder making up a rule like this, probably because his little sister kicked him in the junk all the time when they were kids?)
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  • #18
edward said:
Honda is the only vehicle ever mention in the bible. A certain verse states; Ye shalll all be of one Accord.

boo boo:devil:
What about when Jesus entered Jerusalem in his Triumph?
 
  • #19
I'm wondering if this is motivated by the notion that a severe injury might prevent a man from reproducing - thus depriving him of his lineage.
 
  • #20
That's definitely one of the things that would motivate me if I was outlawing being kicked in the junk or having my giblets ripped off. Along with, y'know, the extreme pain.
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  • #21
Art said:
What about when Jesus entered Jerusalem in his Triumph?

It was truly a day of glory for the Scions of Israel.

Now, let's be multicultural and equal-opportunity here. Don't forget when Buddha contemplated the Lotus.
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  • #22
(Buddha was really great a meditating, he really had Focus.)
 
  • #23
We could even get back into pagan Roman mythology and talk about Saturn and Mercury.

(Help! Help! I can't stop it! http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/willy_nilly.gif )
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  • #24
Ivan Seeking said:
I'm wondering if this is motivated by the notion that a severe injury might prevent a man from reproducing - thus depriving him of his lineage.

That or the excruciating pain.
 
  • #25
I always reference the transliteration:

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 (Young's Literal Translation)

When men strive together, one with another, and the wife of the one hath drawn near to deliver her husband out of the hand of his smiter, and hath put forth her hand, and laid hold on his secrets, then thou hast cut off her hand, thine eye doth not spare.

Not all that funny I guess.

I found another line the other day was somewhat amusing:
Exodus 20 (Latin vulgate)
non habebis deos alienos coram me

thou shalt have no alien gods before me.(my translation)

Which kind of implies that the flying spaghetti monster god must exist, and if we worship our god at 10 am, then it's ok to have the monster god over for tea at 11.
 
  • #26
mgb_phys said:
Yes the important part is 'why'
Is it a law because your wife touching another mans rude bits is rude or does it really mean targeting a mans dangly bits is against the rules of fair fight - even if you are a defending your husband.

Moses doesn't forbid groin kicks but reaching in and grabbing by hand. Clearly it is manual contact with another man's private that is an abomination. It must also have happened a few times to warrant a law about that. An ancient martial art of the desert? I'm sure your wife is allowed to swing a baseball bat to the groin without offending Moses in any way. Just keep your hand clean lest you lose it. Your foot and your baseball bat are safe.

Now let's talk about seafood...
 
  • #27
I dunno, it still seems to me that someone was saying, "It is so not fair... women don't even have those sensitive parts!" and tried to ensconce it in holy law.

OmCheeto said:
Which kind of implies that the flying spaghetti monster god must exist, and if we worship our god at 10 am, then it's ok to have the monster god over for tea at 11.

As long as you're not worshipping a small golden figurine of the FSM, you're, uh, golden.
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  • #28
mgb_phys said:
Yes the important part is 'why'
Is it a law because your wife touching another mans rude bits is rude or does it really mean targeting a mans dangly bits is against the rules of fair fight - even if you are a defending your husband.

It does have real modern implications. Would using depleted uranium rounds or chemcial weapons such as agent orange which might have reproductive side effects be against god's law?

why is this a mystery? nothing is more important than maintaining the fertility and survival of the fledgling hebrew nation. anything that impedes this is bad. this is also why anal sex is bad: they needed babies, not birth control. I'm not sure if onanism and siring your dead brother's sons come into play here, as i think that was more about humiliating the woman.

how things like this apply in a fully replenished Earth and thriving jewish community is anyone's guess, but you certainly don't hear of one-handed jewish women, do you? interestingly (to me at least), intentional reproductive violence is considered genocide, and the man who invented the term and fought to see laws enacted against it was a jew.
 
  • #29
Probably a good place to end the thread as the thread is crossing the boundary on religious discussion.
 

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