An expression about kinetic energy

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around an expression related to kinetic energy from analytical dynamics, specifically addressing the conditions under which kinetic energy is considered quadratic in terms of velocity. Participants explore the implications of this expression, the role of time-dependent terms in the work-energy principle, and the context of relativistic kinetic energy.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the statement that kinetic energy is "only quadratic in terms of velocity," noting that kinetic energy is typically expressed as a function of the square of velocity.
  • Another participant introduces the relativistic formula for kinetic energy, suggesting it may not be quadratic in terms of velocity.
  • A participant clarifies that the relativistic kinetic energy formula is distinct from the rest energy formula and provides the specific equation for kinetic energy.
  • One participant discusses explicit time dependence in kinetic energy, using an example of a bead sliding on a rotating wire to illustrate how kinetic energy can depend on time through generalized coordinates.
  • A participant expresses difficulty in understanding the advanced concepts presented and requests clarification on explicit time dependence.
  • Another participant reiterates that kinetic energy is often quadratic in velocity but notes that the text may be limiting the discussion to this case for simplicity.
  • One participant suggests that the author may be leading up to a discussion of the virial theorem, indicating a potential connection to broader concepts in dynamics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretation of the expression regarding kinetic energy being "only quadratic in terms of velocity." There are multiple competing views regarding the nature of kinetic energy in different contexts, particularly in relation to relativistic effects and time dependence.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the importance of explicit time dependence in certain systems, while others question the assumptions made in the original expression. The discussion reflects a range of interpretations and applications of kinetic energy concepts without resolving the underlying uncertainties.

mech-eng
Messages
826
Reaction score
13
Hi, all. Here is an expression about kinetic energy from analytical dynamics of Haim Baruh which confuses me.

"Consider a particle and the case which the kinetic energy is only quadratic in terms of velocity of the particle. We take the differential form of work-energy principle and remove from it all velocity and time-dependent terms(including the kinetic energy as well as all time-dependent parts of nonconservative force)"

Can you expand above explanation please. Here I don't understand why the writer says "case which the kinetic energy is only quadratic in terms of velocity ..." because kinetic energy is always in terms of square of namely quadratic of the linear or angular velocities or sum of both and what are the time dependent terms in the work-energy principle.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I'll answer the first question. Have you ever seen the relativistic formula for kinetic energy? Is it quadratic in terms of velocity?
 
dauto said:
I'll answer the first question. Have you ever seen the relativistic formula for kinetic energy? Is it quadratic in terms of velocity?

Is it about Einstein's general or special relativity theorem? If it is I know only E=m*C^2 here it is still
quadratic in terms terms of (light) velocity. But I don't know E is kinetic energy or something different.
 
Last edited:
That's the formula for rest energy. The kinetic energy formula is K=mc^2\left(\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-{v^2}/{c^2}}}-1\right)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: 1 person
Hi, the kinetic energy T could be explicit time dependent:

When you have r_{i}=r_{i}(q_{1},q_{2},...,q_{n},t)(old coordinates in terms of new generalized coordinates), important is the explicit time dependence, which can occur for example in a system where a bead is sliding on a rotating wire.Take \dot{r_{i}}=v_{i}= \frac{dr_{i}}{dt} = \frac{\partial r_{i}}{\partial q_{j}}\dot{q_{j}}+ \frac{\partial r_{i}}{\partial t}

T= \frac{1}{2} m_{i} v^{2}_{i}= \frac{1}{2}m_{i}(\frac{\partial r_{i}}{\partial q_{j}}\dot{q_{j}}+ \frac{\partial r_{i} } {\partial t})^{2}

When expandet it is:

Eq.: 1
T=M_{0}+ M_{j}\dot{q_{j}}+\frac{1}{2}M_{jk}\dot{q_{j}}\dot{q_{k}}

Where

M_{0} = \frac{1}{2} m_{i} (\frac{\partial r_{i} }{\partial t})^{2}
M_{j} = m_{i} \frac{\partial r_{i} }{\partial t} \frac{\partial r_{i} }{\partial q_{j} }
M_{jk} = m_{i} \frac{\partial r_{i} }{\partial q_{j} } \frac{\partial r_{i} }{\partial q_{k} }

Now, when you have no explicit time dependence in the coordinates then only the last term in Eq. 1 survives and you have the usual kinetic energy which is quadratic in the generalized velocities :-)

Hope that helps !
(I dropped the summation signs out of layzieness)
Greets
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: 1 person
Hi, JonnyMaddox. Your post is too advanced to understand for me. From what books did you take those examples
and what is the meaning of explicit time dependence please.
 
dauto said:
That's the formula for rest energy. The kinetic energy formula is K=mc^2\left(\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-{v^2}/{c^2}}}-1\right)

But here kinetic energy is still quadratic in terms of velocities as it is always form of that. I ask that why does the writer says when it is only quadratic in terms of velocities
 
Please provide more context ... like what is the section heading, what does he do next?

He may be leading up to the virial theorem ... just scan in the entire page and attach the image.
 
This it it.
 

Attachments

  • expresson.png
    expresson.png
    52.2 KB · Views: 476
  • #10
The conditions for static equilibrium are being sought - and the process is to find the critical points of the work-energy expression by setting the derivative to zero. Since the static condition is assumed, all of the time dependent terms should vanish.

Kinetic energy is very often quadratic inthe velocity .. but not always. To obtain the simplest form the text limits you to the quadratic case.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 41 ·
2
Replies
41
Views
4K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 39 ·
2
Replies
39
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 138 ·
5
Replies
138
Views
9K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K