Any arguments for time travel back in time (the past)?

AI Thread Summary
Time travel to the past faces significant challenges, primarily due to paradoxes like the Butterfly Effect and the Grandfather Paradox, which complicate the notion of altering history. The Novikov self-consistency principle suggests that if time travel were possible, it would prevent any actions that could create inconsistencies, such as altering past events. Discussions highlight that the energy requirements for time travel may be insurmountable, and any theoretical travel would likely be limited to the point when the time machine is activated. Moreover, the concept of time travel often leads to absurdities, as it would necessitate reversing the entire universe's state, including aging and knowledge. Ultimately, while time travel remains a fascinating topic, practical implementation appears highly improbable.
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Theres the Butterfly effect and Grandfather paradox which makes logical time travel into the past difficult. Is there any theory or anything which suggests it may be possible?
 
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I don't know about any theories, but I can think of two possibilities that could happen if time travel into the past was possible.

1. If you kill your grandfather, then you can't travel back into the future.
2. If you kill your grandfather, then you cease to exist.

But, perhaps, if you kill your grandfather, it wouldn't matter if you killed him in the past, because you already exist in the future.
 
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By the butterfly effect I assume that you mean the multiplicative effects of changing history. This was misinterpreted the first time which is why the thread was deleted.

I think it is fair to say that while the door hasn't been closed entirely on travel to the past, it may be that the energy requirements would far exceed anything possible for the foreseeable future - maybe beyond anything that will ever be possible. There is also the [physics based] argument that one could only travel back to the point in time that the time machine is first turned on.

The Future of Spacetime [2002] has a nice series of essays on this subject.
 
One possible scenario which "might" permit this would be such that the "travel back" demands "observable only" with no possible actual interaction.
Just my thoughts...
 
Travelling to the past is simple; just move all particles back to the way they were at the time you want to be.
 
Ivan Seeking said:
By the butterfly effect I assume that you mean the multiplicative effects of changing history. This was misinterpreted the first time which is why the thread was deleted.

I think it is fair to say that while the door hasn't been closed entirely on travel to the past, it may be that the energy requirements would far exceed anything possible for the foreseeable future - maybe beyond anything that will ever be possible. There is also the [physics based] argument that one could only travel back to the point in time that the time machine is first turned on.

The Future of Spacetime [2002] has a nice series of essays on this subject.

Yep that's what i meant (the multiplicative effects). What else does it mean?
I got a warning and email saying "Crackpot discussions are not allowed here on ther PF" and it was my third post , I was going to leave the forum if that was a crackpot discussion. (adj.Foolish; harebrained: a crackpot notion).

Anyway I found this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle .

Quoting the Wikipedia Encyclopedia (which I can legally do - It is for the public by the public. Although we should not allways rely on it I checked out some other sites and the Novikov self consistency principle is real.)

The Novikov Principle is able to circumvent most commonly-cited paradoxes which are often alleged to exist should time travel be possible (and are often claimed to make it impossible). A common example of the principle in action is the idea of preventing disasters from happening in the past and the potential paradoxes this may cause (notably the idea that preventing the disaster would remove the motive for the traveler to go back and prevent it and so on). The Novikov self-consistency principle states that a time traveler would not be able to do so.

An example is the Titanic sinking; even if there were time travelers on the Titanic, they obviously failed to stop the ship from sinking. The Novikov Principle does not allow a time traveler to change the past in any way, but it does allow them to affect past events in a way that produces no inconsistencies—for example, a time traveler could rescue people from a disaster, and replace them with realistic corpses seconds before it occurs. Providing that the rescuees do not re-emerge until after the time traveler first journeyed into the past, his/her motivation to create the time machine and travel into the past will be preserved. (See Millennium.) In this example, it must always have been true that the people were rescued by a time traveler and replaced with realistic corpses, there was no "original" history where they were actually killed, since the notion of "changing" the past is ruled out completely by the self-consistency principle.
 
Ivan Seeking said:
By the butterfly effect I assume that you mean the multiplicative effects of changing history. This was misinterpreted the first time which is why the thread was deleted.

I think it is fair to say that while the door hasn't been closed entirely on travel to the past, it may be that the energy requirements would far exceed anything possible for the foreseeable future - maybe beyond anything that will ever be possible. There is also the [physics based] argument that one could only travel back to the point in time that the time machine is first turned on.

The Future of Spacetime [2002] has a nice series of essays on this subject.

Thanks for the essay recommendation I will look them up.

Ahh the energy requirments that would/could make it impossible. But even before we try because of the butterfly effect it makes it "logically impossible". Like how in the cosmological argument a being that can exist before it existed to make it self exist is logically impossible as it would have to exist before it existed lol.
 
Ivan Seeking said:
I think it is fair to say that while the door hasn't been closed entirely on travel to the past,...
The Future of Spacetime [2002] has a nice series of essays on this subject.

Aren't causality and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics two doors that are closed pretty tightly against time travel to the past?
 
Raap said:
Travelling to the past is simple; just move all particles back to the way they were at the time you want to be.

Your proposition is correct if one only wants to travel to an instantaneous moment in the past. After that moment, though, the particles wouldn't necessarily behave in the same way as they did in the past.
 
  • #10
There is a simple conflict to think about when traveling time.

Two objects cannot be at the same space and time. So when you travel back to time, the volume position where your body us at the present must be completely void on the specific time of past you will travel in; otherwise your body will be conflicting with the mass on that position at that time.

Edit: There is another one i just thought of. Let's say that time travel is instantaneous and you travel to the past today at 1:00PM back to the time you started to travel at 1:00PM. So you will not be in a future anymore and your time is completely cut off up to 1:00PM. What will become of the volume which your body used to occupy? Your body is not there in the future because you traveled back in time. But there cannot be anything else because your body is occupying it for all eternity since 1:00PM.

Edit2: I mean travel back to when you finished traveling to the past; since that is the exact time when that space is available. In other words, you exist but do not exist paradox with time traveling.
 
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  • #11
When you travel back in time, according to relativity you must be able to go at or faster than the speed of light, 300,000 km/s. If theoretically we are able to achieve this it is still impossible to go back in time because when we travel faster than light then effect precedes cause, which means that is things happen before they are actually seen by other like the athletes running before the race has even started. Since we live in a world of effect coming after cause i.e; the athletes running after the race has started, the notionthat the reverse should happen is impossible. Hence it is impossible to travel back in time according to me.
 
  • #12
I think that there certain concepts that only exist in the human imagination, they don't exist in reality. One of them is the concept of infinity. Nothing is infinite. As we learn more and more almost everything that we ever thought was infinite has turned out not to be. When infinity creeps into math it is usually a sign of a mistake isn't it?

Time travel to the past would require infinity in various forms. I believe that for this reason alone it isn't even remotely possible.

It would require every possible (as opposed to the actual configuration that supposedly could be deduced at the end of time) configuration (position, energy, etc.) of every particle in the universe at every instant from the big bang to the end of time to exist simultaneously. The actual configuration is the way things are without time travel, the possible would encompass changes that would inevitably occur with travel to the past, it WOULD change the future.

In actuality there may not be that much difference between the 2 since the only thing that can change anything from it's normal path as governed by the laws of physics is life. Life introduces a random factor so anything involved with life can't be deduced by the laws of physics. You can be a physics god but the laws of physics will not explain the existence of a lunar lander on the moon or one particular crater on a certain comet.
 
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  • #13
Most discussions of time travel are elementary at best, and nonsense at worst. There are, however, solutions in General Relativity that contain closed-time-like curves. We cannot take these solutions too literally, as they tend to occur in artificial situations e.g. von Neumann discovered such solutions in a rotating-universe model , and because GR, as a non-quantum theory, is not the final word on spacetime.
 
  • #14
It seems that the conception of most of us have about traveling back in time is similar to the movie Back to the Future in which a person from the present travels back to the past but remaining as he is in the present. This view presumes that somehow the time traveler continues to travel forward in time while the rest of the universe has traveled backwards.

If travel back in time were possible it would mean rewinding the whole universe to that time. The Earth would have to orbit backwards and even air molecules would have to retrace their exact paths from the present to the past. All aging and knowledge gained would also have to be reversed. Anybody arriving in the past from the present would do so naively without any of the knowledge time from which he came.

The whole point of returning to the past of course, is doing so with the knowledge of the present. However this seems to always involve the potential for paradoxes or absurdities - great for movies but very problematic in practice.
 
  • #15
skeptic2 said:
It seems that the conception of most of us have about traveling back in time is similar to the movie Back to the Future in which a person from the present travels back to the past but remaining as he is in the present. This view presumes that somehow the time traveler continues to travel forward in time while the rest of the universe has traveled backwards.

If travel back in time were possible it would mean rewinding the whole universe to that time. The Earth would have to orbit backwards and even air molecules would have to retrace their exact paths from the present to the past. All aging and knowledge gained would also have to be reversed. Anybody arriving in the past from the present would do so naively without any of the knowledge time from which he came.

The whole point of returning to the past of course, is doing so with the knowledge of the present. However this seems to always involve the potential for paradoxes or absurdities - great for movies but very problematic in practice.

Exactly the way I have always thought of time travel. Maybe we are all time traveling now and then, we just don't know it because our memories of 'the future' don't exist in 'the past'.
 
  • #16
Nick89 said:
Exactly the way I have always thought of time travel. Maybe we are all time traveling now and then, we just don't know it because our memories of 'the future' don't exist in 'the past'.

I get what you mean but I don't understand it. How can we be time traveling now and how can we not know because our memories of the future don't exist in the past.

Please can you explain this because it sounds really interesting and I don't get it.
 
  • #17
Say our lives are being played out from a recording like a DVD. Everything is there, past present and future, but we are only seeing the moment being played. Who is to say what we think is playing forward really isn't playing backwards?
 
  • #18
Lambda3 said:
Your proposition is correct if one only wants to travel to an instantaneous moment in the past. After that moment, though, the particles wouldn't necessarily behave in the same way as they did in the past.
...and he's right, of course - it's simple :rolleyes:
 
  • #19
I think it was Steven Hawking who asked, if time trvel is possible, "where are all the tourists from the future?"
 
  • #20
Originally Posted by Lambda3 View Post

"Your proposition is correct if one only wants to travel to an instantaneous moment in the past. After that moment, though, the particles wouldn't necessarily behave in the same way as they did in the past."

...and he's right, of course - it's simple"

He is? If you go into THE past, and every particle has EXACTLY the same properties, every particle that isn't being directly affected by your instantaneous presence in the past would act exactly as it did before. The longer you spend in the past the more particles you will affect which will in turn affect particles on their own creating a growing area of effect. If you were to appear for just an instant in the past the effect would be almost unnoticeable, butterfly effect notwithstanding, if you stayed there the effect would grow but it wouldn't change anything at all on Alpha Centauri.
 
  • #21
One of the better ( imo only ) sci-fi films with time travel as the theme I've seen is 'Primer' (2004)

The acting/screenplay/dialog is not the best but I enjoyed their treatment of the paradoxes involved.
 
  • #22
Alfi said:
One of the better ( imo only ) sci-fi films with time travel as the theme I've seen is 'Primer' (2004)

The acting/screenplay/dialog is not the best but I enjoyed their treatment of the paradoxes involved.


Thanks for that movie recommendation I’m going to watch that tonight, looks a fair bit complicated though with the Feynman diagrams and the directors no nonsense approach to dumbing down :eek:
 
  • #23
gmax137 said:
I think it was Steven Hawking who asked, if time travel is possible, "where are all the tourists from the future?"
Well
I don't think their visible absence necessarily precludes time travel.

They probably read history in much the way we do and would no doubt understand what a paranoid, covetous generation of humanity we are (were); in short, a time-traveller from the future would likely be abducted by some agency, not necessarily governmental, who wanted the inside track on the future.

The term 'tourist' also suggests they have commercialised time travel.

They'd likely be a archaeo-scientific survey team who knew how to blend in. If they had any sense.
 
  • #24
PhysicsILike said:
Theres the Butterfly effect and Grandfather paradox which makes logical time travel into the past difficult. Is there any theory or anything which suggests it may be possible?
It depends on the physical meaning of the PAST. Does it exist for eternity, 'somewhen'? Or are spatial configurations transitory? General relativity allows backward time travel in principle. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the dynamics of the physical universe allow it. Is the universe really evolving, ie., continually changing, or is it a static laminate of spacetime slices that we worm our way around in?

My personal view is that the universe is continually evolving, that universal spatial configurations are transitory, and that there is a fundamental wave dynamic, operating at all scales, defining the 'arrow of time' and prohibiting, in principle, backward time travel.

I agree with the posters who said that going back in time would involve reconstructing the universal spatial configurations that correspond to the time you want to (re)visit.

Afaik, however, there's no definitive final word on this.
 
  • #25
Alfi said:
One of the better ( imo only ) sci-fi films with time travel as the theme I've seen is 'Primer' (2004)

The acting/screenplay/dialog is not the best but I enjoyed their treatment of the paradoxes involved.

It's funny you mentioned that movie: the moment I saw this thread I immediately signed on to it so I could recommend that people watch it. I liked that movie, even though it was extremely confusing.
 
  • #26
BoundByAxioms said:
It's funny you mentioned that movie: the moment I saw this thread I immediately signed on to it so I could recommend that people watch it. I liked that movie, even though it was extremely confusing.

I just watched it , I did not get it at all. Damm that was complicated.
 
  • #27
It sort of makes more sense if you go back in time and watch it again.

:smile:
 
  • #28
There's a few websites you can look at that sort of explain that movie..
 
  • #29
Alfi said:
It sort of makes more sense if you go back in time and watch it again.

:smile:

I have just come back to the future and watched it and I get it now. (Of course I hid my self in a room for 3hours so when I go back in time I don't bump into myself. I also used a particle machine to create a bubble around me making sure I don't affect anything, even the atmosphere was not disturbed. I then used an invisible cloak stood behind my self the first time I watched it so I could watch it again.) - This would create no paradox.
 
  • #30
Time is nothing more than a way to express and measure motion.

Going back in time would be moving in a negative direction, which is impossible (read improbable), because motion always has to be in a positive direction, correct? :)
 
  • #31
PhysicsILike said:
I have just come back to the future and watched it and I get it now. (Of course I hid my self in a room for 3hours so when I go back in time I don't bump into myself. I also used a particle machine to create a bubble around me making sure I don't affect anything, even the atmosphere was not disturbed. I then used an invisible cloak stood behind my self the first time I watched it so I could watch it again.) - This would create no paradox.


Strange eh? :biggrin: It seems to require that second viewing. One loop and it all becomes crystal clear.


Kronos - don't analyze, . ... well unless you went back twice.
Kronos said:
correct?
lol - no sure eh? :smile:
 
  • #32
i was reading the book "the universe in a nutshell" by stephan hawking, and i came across a section of time travel.. as per what i understood was that time travel IS possible.. it said that there were 2 people say,A and B. they made a wormhole in January. A would board a spaceship and would travel at nearly the speed of light carrying carrying one end of the wormhole, while B would wait on the Earth near the other end of the wormhole.. A would travel around the universe and come back to earth.. A would then go into his end of the wormhole (at say, 4:00PM on march 21) and would come out at 2:00AM on march 19.. it would happen due to the same reasons as the "twins paradox"
. please correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I've interpreted...
 
  • #33
Something that hasn't been mentioned is the Everett Many Worlds Interpretation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

In this system (which has a fairly sound basis) you nulify many time travel paradoxes. We do know that if a closed timelike curve were to exist it's mathmatically sound that travel to the past is possible.

When incorporated with the above theory the past that you would travel to would be unique to the one you left. The mere act of appearing would instantly create a new reality in which any change you made would affect that reality only. You could kill your grandfather and in that world you would never be born. However because this reality is entirely different from the reality you originated in, it would have no causality reprocussions.

This would also explain Hawkins' quote away quite nicely. There are no tourists because the moment they traveled in time they'd create their own personal reality.

While this all seems to be quite the Sci-Fi channel special it has fairly sound physics and mathmatics. Check it out.
 
  • #34
ok i got wat u said but then why does the grandfather paradox still exist?? like if i were to go into the past and kill my grandfather then wat difference would it actually make.. i just woudnt vanish into thin air.. i already exist.. and about the space tourists from the future, can't it be that we are the first humans to travel into the future with every passing second, so as no one exists in the future how can the come back,, even if they have the technology.. look at it as if u r watching a video.. so how can you rewind without going forward.. you have to watch atleast 1sec to rewind... ppl please correct me if I'm on the wrong track.
 
  • #35
naikaj said:
ok i got wat u said but then why does the grandfather paradox still exist?? like if i were to go into the past and kill my grandfather then wat difference would it actually make.. i just woudnt vanish into thin air.. i already exist

If you take something even simpler, you go back in time and kill your self (say 5 days before you discovered the time machine) and sat around without building the machine. This means that you never built the time machine to actually go back and kill yourself. That is what the paradox is.

The grandfather paradox is the same, if you killed your grandfather then you wouldn't have been born in the first place thus you couldn't have gone back in time and killed your grandfather.

I don't think traveling back in time is possible, it is wishful thinking. Stick to sci-fi if you like the idea.
 
  • #36
a4mula said:
Something that hasn't been mentioned is the Everett Many Worlds Interpretation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

In this system (which has a fairly sound basis) you nulify many time travel paradoxes. We do know that if a closed timelike curve were to exist it's mathmatically sound that travel to the past is possible.

When incorporated with the above theory the past that you would travel to would be unique to the one you left. The mere act of appearing would instantly create a new reality in which any change you made would affect that reality only. You could kill your grandfather and in that world you would never be born. However because this reality is entirely different from the reality you originated in, it would have no causality reprocussions.

This would also explain Hawkins' quote away quite nicely. There are no tourists because the moment they traveled in time they'd create their own personal reality.

While this all seems to be quite the Sci-Fi channel special it has fairly sound physics and mathmatics. Check it out.

The MWI of QM and CTC's of GR don't have a sound physical basis. In fact, they have no physical basis. They're mathematical fictions, not physics. As such, they're part of why QM and GR shouldn't be taken as descriptions of physical reality.

The observational evidence suggests that we live in an expanding universe whose spatial configuration is transitory (ie., what we see via EM propagations no longer exists, in precisely the same state as we've perceived it, outside our perceptual machinery) -- and in such a universe, backward time travel is a physical impossibility.
 
  • #37
PhysicsILike said:
Theres the Butterfly effect and Grandfather paradox which makes logical time travel into the past difficult. Is there any theory or anything which suggests it may be possible?



Here is one very strong argument - Where are the flocks of time travellers from the future? They should be easily recogniseable by holding 10 000 megapixel cameras.
 
  • #38
ThomasT said:
The MWI of QM and CTC's of GR don't have a sound physical basis. In fact, they have no physical basis. They're mathematical fictions, not physics. As such, they're part of why QM and GR shouldn't be taken as descriptions of physical reality.

The observational evidence suggests that we live in an expanding universe whose spatial configuration is transitory (ie., what we see via EM propagations no longer exists, in precisely the same state as we've perceived it, outside our perceptual machinery) -- and in such a universe, backward time travel is a physical impossibility.

QM does an excellent job of describing the reality of submicro and macro systems. GR does an excellect job of describing the gravational fields of large objects. Are these any less descriptive of reality than classical physics, or any physics for that matter? Just the opposite! They provide a more accurate description.

There are plenty of mathematical fictions throughout history that have in turned proved to be very accurate descriptions of reality. As it stands today MWI does the best job of describing the universe without observers. It's one of a handful of interpretations that are taken seriously by mainstream physics. We know wavefunction collapse happens, that is reality. We do not know the mechanism behind it however. MWI provides this mechanism while violating no known laws of physics, eliminates the need of an observer, and solves multiple paradoxes along the way.

As far as closed timelike curves are concerned... I think it's quite premature to state that these are merely mathematical fictions. Are you going to claim that black holes are mathematical fictions as well? CTCs have long been predicted, not by just one or two theories, but by many. They show up in equation after equation and as of yet we've been unable to find anything that seems to dispute their existence.

Are either of these reality? Who knows, I don't but then again you don't either. All we can do is model our reality and then see where the predictions take us. While you seem to have some disdain for the mathematics involved in the process it's a necessity in Scientific Method. We do not live in the world where intuition and perception allows us to define reality. We know reality often times defies both.
 
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  • #39
a4mula said:
QM does an excellent job of describing the reality of submicro and macro systems. GR does an excellect job of describing the gravational fields of large objects. Are these any less descriptive of reality than classical physics, or any physics for that matter? Just the opposite! They provide a more accurate description.
They provide more accurate predictions of instrumental behavior. But that doesn't necessarily qualify them as descriptions of reality. This is maybe clearer wrt QM than wrt GR.

a4mula said:
There are plenty of mathematical fictions throughout history that have in turned proved to be very accurate descriptions of reality.
Mathematical fictions can be good quantitative (predictive) models -- while at the same time being not very good qualitative descriptions of reality.

a4mula said:
As it stands today MWI does the best job of describing the universe without observers. It's one of a handful of interpretations that are taken seriously by mainstream physics. We know wavefunction collapse happens, that is reality. We do not know the mechanism behind it however. MWI provides this mechanism while violating no known laws of physics, eliminates the need of an observer, and solves multiple paradoxes along the way.
As a quantitative model, MWI does exactly the same thing as standard uninterpreted QM. The rest is just untestable, and conceptually questionable, fiction. MWI doesn't eliminate observers -- at least not insofar as it deals with filters and detectors and data. And, if no unwarranted assumptions about the physical meaning of wavefunctions (and their 'collapse'}, quantum superpositions, etc., are made, then there aren't any paradoxes in the first place.

a4mula said:
As far as closed timelike curves are concerned... I think it's quite premature to state that these are merely mathematical fictions.
GR is on its way out. CTC's will likely be mothballed with it.

a4mula said:
Are you going to claim that black holes are mathematical fictions as well?
There's observational evidence of their effects. Also, black holes, like white dwarfs, neutron stars, etc. don't require the GR block universe, spacetime geometric model. Black holes, etc., can exist in an evolving, transitory universe -- where the spatial configurations corresponding to the past really don't exist other than as subjective recollections or objective records of them. But, CTC's can't exist in a transitory universe (which I think is a more accurate description of the real one that we are part of).

a4mula said:
CTCs have long been predicted, not by just one or two theories, but by many. They show up in equation after equation and as of yet we've been unable to find anything that seems to dispute their existence.
Or anything to confirm their existence. CTC's are an untestable prediction, afaik. So that leaves us with a mathematical construction that has no physical basis.

We also don't see advanced waves, or broken stuff spontaneously reassembling itself, etc. -- and I think a better approach than taking these things as physical possibilities simply because they're allowed or appear in one model or another is to assume that they're precluded by the physical dynamics which govern our universe.

Quantum experimental phenomena and QM (even though it shouldn't be taken as a description of reality because the extent to which the formalism corresponds to an underlying physical reality is unknown) provide indications that physical reality is fundamentally wavelike. In my view, current physics is a necessary simplification of a fantastically complex system of wave interactions in a fantastically vast hierarchy of particulate media (the particles being bound wave structures) arising from a few, and maybe just one, fundamental wave dynamic(s).

a4mula said:
While you seem to have some disdain for the mathematics involved in the process it's a necessity in Scientific Method.
Disdain for the mathematics involved? What gives you that idea? I love mathematical models. But there's usually an important difference between mathematical models and 'descriptions of reality'.

The normal procedure is to develop mathematical models that are consistent with the current standard theoretical structures and also fit the data, and then worry about the physical conceptual (qualitatively descriptive) issues as they arise. This approach is somewhat efficient, but has led to a situation where there isn't a unified conceptual framework.

But, I think that eventually this will happen. And when it does, then I think that backward time travel will be theoretically, not just practically, prohibited.
 
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  • #40
Time travel to the past is possible but only as an observer. Spacetime is affected by matter therefore when matter moves through spacetime it leaves a "recording". This recording can be read by a spaceship that has traveled to Earth's wake trail. A laser inteferometer can scan the spacetime recording and detect any spacetime changes. The changes then can be translated to the matter that caused them.
 
  • #41
The simplest reason you can't travel back in time is that it would violate the second law of thermodynamics. You cannot create or destroy energy or mass.

Think about all of the atoms in your body. They each have a unique history. Some of those atoms were once part of a ham sandwich (you know they were).

Now, when you time travel, you have to reverse the history not just for yourself, but for all the matter in your body. So, you would either revert back to a pile of ham sandwiches and mountain dew, or you would step through a magical instant time portal and violate the second law by introducing duplicate atoms into the past universe, thus effectively creating matter.

Either way, it doesn't look so good for time travel.
 
  • #42
I am not sure if this post is still active, i hope it is. anyway, OB 50 makes a great point about the law of conservation of mass. so far in the observable universe, there are NO contradictions to this law. that doesn't mean there won't be a first, but it does give us a pretty good idea that were in no position to make any such arguments. I have come across a theory of time travel, that while a little logically obtuse and hard to comprehend at first glance, is amazingly well adapted to the universe at we know it.
I should note that this theory turned me from a skeptic of time travel, like most everyone else, into a firm believer. Before i begin however, i should make a disclaimer involving the scientific content of this theory, seeing as how this is a physics forum: DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC THEORY, AND SHOULD NOT BE COMPARED TO THE MANY SCIENTIFIC THEORIES OF TIME TRAVEL THAT ARE BACKED BY PEOPLE WITH ACRONYMS IN THEIR NAMES.

I am a firm believer in time travel. Around the turn of the twentieth century there was a growing body of thought concerning meditation induced time travel, that like so many other things, was overshadowed by the magnanimous scientific leaps of the early 20th century, and all but forgotten.
A couple years ago, I became interested in the works of Jack London and the book "The Star Rover" in particular. while it is purely a fictional work, it is based on a supposedly true story about a man who is able to leave his body, and even travel back in time, and live another life in the past, only to be jerked back into the present, sometimes unexpectedly.
Now, if you've read this far, the key point is about to be made: this person is NOT aware of the time travel until s/he returns to the present, therefore cannot make any paradox inducing changes to his world. in other words, this is two people, experiencing one life. When this person then returns to the present, the tree of cause and effect splits, and this one person becomes two people.
The idea of multiple souls, if you will, with different fates and experiences inhabiting one body is more fantastical that the wildest science fiction, but for me, an idea made more believable by personal out of body experiences.
I continued to be interested in this book, and the factual elements of its backstory. I learned that a man named Ed Morrell, had written a book about his own experiences with time travel, while an inmate in San Quentin prison. This book is rather hard to track down, and is expensive to purchase. I managed to get a copy through the Harvard University library system, that had not been checked out in some 60 years. Anyhow, I highly recommend this book to anyone courageous enough to break free from the shackles of empiricism, and take a leap of faith into the unknown. I understand most people will not want to believe this theory, simply because it is beyond the realm of their imagination. Please let me know what you think of this theory, and respond.
 
  • #43
Since there is no time (time is just an illusion in a human brains, arising due to existence changing) there is no time travel.

All there is, is NOW.

Past and future are just human concepts - past doesn't exist, future doesn't exist, thus you cannot travel to that which doesn't exist.

If you had enough power though (aka God), you could simulate time travel, meaning that you would have to change the NOW, this exact existence you are living/experiencing NOW, to the kind of existence you imagine to be the one of past or future.

In a way we all can do it, in our dreams. Try to master your dreams, so they are lucid and under your control (there are techniques for that), and you will achieve 'time travel' ability ;)
 
  • #44
Boy@n said:
Since there is no time (time is just an illusion in a human brains, arising due to existence changing) there is no time travel.

All there is, is NOW.

Past and future are just human concepts - past doesn't exist, future doesn't exist, thus you cannot travel to that which doesn't exist.

If you had enough power though (aka God), you could simulate time travel, meaning that you would have to change the NOW, this exact existence you are living/experiencing NOW, to the kind of existence you imagine to be the one of past or future.

In a way we all can do it, in our dreams. Try to master your dreams, so they are lucid and under your control (there are techniques for that), and you will achieve 'time travel' ability ;)

If space-time is a fabric that is modulated by matter and this fabric is expanding then the past exists as a "recording". If you could travel back to the spot that Earth was a day ago and you're able to detect the "recording" by some instrument then you could "observe" the happenings of yesterday. By observing only, you would not create any time paradoxes.
 
  • #45
Boy@n. Your argument seems a bit simplistic. Perhaps time travel is only an idea, but many things are just ideas before they become more widely accepted and acknowledged. One could argue that the entire universe is contained in our minds, and in terms of observable cause and effect, you would be right, for each of us experiences our own version of the universe. Time travel is not just a concept. you should keep an open mind when talking about stuff like this. The theory of relativity shows time dilation. Tachyons theoretically travel in time.
In the end, everything is just a concept. That does not mean it is not worth talking about. Also, God is not relevant to a discussion in a physics forum. You personal beliefs of an all powerful god are not shared by everyone.

On a less scientific note, perhaps you would enjoy the song "all we have is now" by the Flaming Lips. It's namesake is how Boy@n sees time, but in the song, the anonymous narrator meets a future version of hilmself. Perhaps there is room for both of these ideas in our shared multiverse.
 
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