Are Cars Too Sound-Proofed for Drivers to Hear Emergency Vehicles?

[BicycleTree]

and maybe could be convinced that the repeaters at intersections are cheaper than repairing emergency vehicles after collisions.

You could use repeaters for focused sound, too, without having to install stuff in the cars.

 

[Moonbear]

You could use repeaters for focused sound, too, without having to install stuff in the cars.

Not that it solves the problem of soundproofed cars, but that does sound like a good idea outside of the soundproofing issue. It would help let cars approaching the intersection know that yes, this is the intersection that fire truck is about to come barrelling through! Better than just changing the light to red, which doesn't necessarily indicate an emergency vehicle is coming through. Definitely would be useful in an area such as where I drive frequently when there is a lot of emergency vehicle traffic en route to the hospital.

 

[Moonbear]

It's really not a very significant problem anyway.

What do you mean it's not a "significant" problem? Response time is slowed every time an emergency vehicle entering an intersection has to slow down for a vehicle that has not stopped for the siren, and worse when there is an actual collision. The other part of the issue here was the one more generally about vehicles being overly sound-proofed, not just with regard to hearing emergency vehicles, but all warning signs they need to be aware of. This makes the roads unsafe for everyone.

 

[BicycleTree]

Well, the idea behind focused sound would be that you could make it much louder without bothering other people. So if a car appeared not to be responding, you could focus twenty more decibels of siren on that car, and nobody's windows would break (except maybe that car's). At an intersection where the ambulance can't see which particular cars might be trouble, you could beam sound in both directions at the intersection just along the road so that only approaching cars would hear the extra noise. Louder without being a nuisance would be the objective in both cases.

You could also add an extra light beside stoplights. Red, orange, green, and then hanging beside it in another box, searchlight-intensity red.

 

[Danger]

Well, the idea behind focused sound would be that you could make it much louder without bothering other people.

Is there no way to get it into your head that it doesn't matter how much you focus your sound—a deaf person can't hear it!

 

[hitssquad]

It's also important to hear the siren and KNOW which direction it's coming from.

No, it is not. If you can hear a siren, it is illegal to drive your car anywhere except to the side of the road.
http://www.google.com/search?q=siren+law+"pull+over"+"any+direction"

--
Pull over to the right edge of the road, or as near to the right as possible, when you see or hear an emergency vehicle approaching from any direction.
--

 

[Moonbear]

Is there no way to get it into your head that it doesn't matter how much you focus your sound—a deaf person can't hear it!

Okay, where are those folks with the websites full of statistics when you really need them? How many deaf drivers are out there that might benefit from such a device?

 

[BicycleTree]

Is there no way to get it into your head that it doesn't matter how much you focus your sound—a deaf person can't hear it!

I don't think deaf people are the topic of this thread. I think it was more about whether cars are too well sound-proofed for drivers to hear emergency vehicles approaching.

 

[Moonbear]

No, it is not. If you can hear a siren, it is illegal to drive your car anywhere except to the side of the road.
http://www.google.com/search?q=siren+law+"pull+over"+"any+direction"

--
Pull over to the right edge of the road, or as near to the right as possible, when you see or hear an emergency vehicle approaching from any direction.
--

Without direction, how do you know if it is approaching?

 

[Moonbear]

I don't think deaf people are the topic of this thread. I think it was more about whether cars are too well sound-proofed for drivers to hear emergency vehicles approaching.

It's both; that's why I referred you to the original post a second time. I can't fit everything in the original post into the title of the thread.

 

[BicycleTree]

No, it is not. If you can hear a siren, it is illegal to drive your car anywhere except to the side of the road.
http://www.google.com/search?q=siren+law+"pull+over"+"any+direction"

--
Pull over to the right edge of the road, or as near to the right as possible, when you see or hear an emergency vehicle approaching from any direction.
--

Well, when you hear it approaching. If you just hear it, you have to know whether it's approaching before you know whether you have to pull over. So locating the sound, visually or aurally, is necessary.

 

[BicycleTree]

For the deaf, there is this:
http://www.infinitec.org/totalresource/deaf/sirens.htm

 

[Evo]

No, it is not. If you can hear a siren, it is illegal to drive your car anywhere except to the side of the road.
http://www.google.com/search?q=siren+law+"pull+over"+"any+direction"

No, it's important to know which direction it's coming from, that way when some idiot that doesn't realize there's an emergency vehicle about to crash into him until the last second and he veers out of the way to avoid it, I'm already out of the way. I don't know where you live, but people around here don't obey those laws. I have seen emergency vehicles take road shoulders before. I rarely ever see anyone stopping and pulling over to the right. I rarely ever see people even slowing down. But, that's probably because I am the only one that can hear them.

Also, due to police officers being killed recently when they were stopped on the shoulder of the road (in each case some idiot ran off the road onto the shoulder and rear ended the cop car, burning the officers to death, in two separate incidents). It is now illegal here to drive in the lane next to the shoulder where there is an emergency vehicle. Which means we quite often have to pull into the LEFT lane to avoid driving next to an emergency vehicle.

 

[Moonbear]

For the deaf, there is this:
http://www.infinitec.org/totalresource/deaf/sirens.htm

Well, there goes that idea, it's already been done! Yep, that's pretty much what I had in mind for my first idea. It's so hard to come up with an original invention anymore; all the good ideas are already taken.

So, barring that, we can still gripe about sound-proofed cars and drivers who should be able to hear if it weren't for the sound-proofing and/or music blasting.

 

[Danger]

So, barring that, we can still gripe about sound-proofed cars and drivers who should be able to hear if it weren't for the sound-proofing and/or music blasting.

Well... since the siren detector already exists, make it mandadory equipment in any vehicle that exceeds a certain level of soundproofing.

 

[BicycleTree]

Well, there goes that idea, it's already been done! Yep, that's pretty much what I had in mind for my first idea. It's so hard to come up with an original invention anymore; all the good ideas are already taken.

So, barring that, we can still gripe about sound-proofed cars and drivers who should be able to hear if it weren't for the sound-proofing and/or music blasting.

Actually, I believe from that site that the siren detector was designed to detect the sound waves of the siren, not transmissions from the ambulance. This is a big difference: it means that the ambulance doesn't have to install extra equipment to make it work. The effort of installation is by the interested party, namely the deaf person. People who just have soundproof cars do not buy these devices. Publicity could encourage them but would not lead to universal adoption--and buying one of them would be tantamount to admitting your car is a menace, something people are disinclined to do. Forcing non-deaf people to use them by law would be very difficult because you would have to legislate against the car manufacturers, who have clout.

If soundproofed cars are a problem, it's mainly the ambulances' problem. If their ambulances crash because of cars not hearing them, then the most practicable solution is for the ambulances to do something, not the cars.

 

[Evo]

If soundproofed cars are a problem, it's mainly the ambulances' problem. If their ambulances crash because of cars not hearing them, then the most practicable solution is for the ambulances to do something, not the cars.

If people can't hear sirens because they are driving a soundproof car, something needs to be done about the cars.

There is a ridiculous commercial on tv right now where this car is surrounded by dozens of candles, a woman in a bathrobe walks to the car, takes off the robe and gets in, like it's some sort of spa treatment. It's a CAR, it's not supposed to be a spa treament, it's not supposed to put you to sleep! AARGGHH!

 

[BicycleTree]

Something needs to be done, period. Whether it is done to the cars or to the ambulances depends on which is more expedient. And it is more expedient to do it to the ambulances.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I scanned the thread quickly and didn't see this mentioned, so please forgive if I missed something. But just now some cities like NY IIRC, are testing emergency vehicle RF signals that control the traffic lights. As a vehicle approaches an intersection, an RF signal is Xmitted by the Emergency vehicle causing the traffic lights to all turn red. This signal could easily be received by all autos within some range, I would think. It could trigger any number of different warning systems in the car or truck; depending on what makes sense.

 

[hitssquad]

Traffic signal preemption

But just now some cities like NY IIRC, are testing emergency vehicle RF signals that control the traffic lights.

Traffic signal preemption. $370.00 + shipping, for a single transmitter.
http://www.anytimecom.com/pages/928360/page928360.html?refresh=1112680820419

As a vehicle approaches an intersection, an RF signal is Xmitted by the Emergency vehicle causing the traffic lights to all turn red.

I believe the systems in use now turn the light green (and opposing green lights yellow, then red) for approaching vehicles. (They use infrared transmitters and line-of-sight receivers, so each intersection can detect the direction of emergency vehicle approach.) All-red would seem to help prevent the system from being hacked, though. A pizza delivery driver hacking the system isn't likely to benefit from turning intersections in front of him all-red, while legitimate emergency vehicles are legal to drive through red lights.

 

[Huckleberry]

That would prevent the systems from being abused by those pesky pizza delivery guys and street racers everywhere. I think it would be more beneficial to an emergency vehicle if the lights on its side were green. If all the traffic is blocked in front of the ambulance because of a red light then the cars will have no place to move out of the way. They could go into opposing traffic but people still make right turns on red right in front of an ambulance.

Changing the lights red is better than just barging through traffic, but changing them green is more beneficial for the emergency vehicle.

 

[Moonbear]

That would prevent the systems from being abused by those pesky pizza delivery guys and street racers everywhere. I think it would be more beneficial to an emergency vehicle if the lights on its side were green. If all the traffic is blocked in front of the ambulance because of a red light then the cars will have no place to move out of the way. They could go into opposing traffic but people still make right turns on red right in front of an ambulance.

Changing the lights red is better than just barging through traffic, but changing them green is more beneficial for the emergency vehicle.

It's too bad people just don't have enough common sense to know that if the traffic stopped at the light is blocking the emergency vehicle, nobody is going to complain if they go through the light and get out of the way to give room. Though, usually that's just when the emergency vehicle drives down the wrong side of the road (another reason all red helps, so someone on the intersecting road doesn't make a turn into the right lane that the emergency vehicle is driving down the wrong side to get around stopped traffic).

Or, they could just require car manufacturers to test for sounds detected on the interior of the vehicle. If you can't detect a siren at a certain volume from within the vehicle, they should have to remove some of the soundproofing or require a device that detects the siren and alerts the driver. Traffic safety can't be compromised for luxury.

 

[BicycleTree]

Well, you know, it does help to have a sense of perspective. Ambulances crashes are infrequent. Ambulances are a few times more dangerous than cars (estimates vary, but about 10x more dangerous per 100,000,000 miles is one estimate from http://www.detnews.com/2003/specialreport/0301/27/a11-68892.htm ) but compared to the number of cars, there are very few ambulances. Hence, very few ambulances crash.

 

[Huckleberry]

Well, you know, it does help to have a sense of perspective. Ambulances crashes are infrequent. Ambulances are a few times more dangerous than cars (estimates vary, but about 10x more dangerous per 100,000,000 miles is one estimate from http://www.detnews.com/2003/specialreport/0301/27/a11-68892.htm ) but compared to the number of cars, there are very few ambulances. Hence, very few ambulances crash.

That may be true, but how many lives are endangered needlessly in ambulance crashes and slowed response time. If a simple device can prevent these hazards then why should it not be used?

I like being able to hear what is going on around my car, especially in traffic. The more my senses can tell me about my environment the more secure I feel.

I prefer the idea of less soundproofed cars, but a simple LED tuned to the frequency that emergency vehicles transmit would be acceptable.

 

[Danger]

Something needs to be done, period. Whether it is done to the cars or to the ambulances depends on which is more expedient. And it is more expedient to do it to the ambulances.

It's not just ambulances. Fire trucks have a worse time of it because of reduced manoeuvrability and tighter clearances, and police cars have the same low-level visibility as regular ones. I've never heard of a tornado siren before, but it seems to me I would like to hear one if it went off in my vicinity.

 

[Moonbear]

It's not just ambulances. Fire trucks have a worse time of it because of reduced manoeuvrability and tighter clearances, and police cars have the same low-level visibility as regular ones. I've never heard of a tornado siren before, but it seems to me I would like to hear one if it went off in my vicinity.

I've heard of several crashes between emergency vehicles and passenger vehicles due to the passenger vehicle not yielding recently in local news. It's not something that used to seem that common, but if recent news reports are any indication, the incidence is on the rise. This is one of those things I'd like to see handled on a preventative level rather than wait until there are deadly accidents before someone takes action, especially if there is technology already available that can address the problem now rather than later, or easy ways to remedy the problem that don't involve any new technology (less soundproofing). In each case where I've heard of such an accident, the report is usually that the driver claims they didn't hear the sirens. I don't know if this is through fault of their own (too loud of radio, just not paying attention, etc), or due to their vehicle, but if it's something that can be remedied, then it should be.

What I haven't gotten a sense of yet is whether overly soundproofed vehicles are a growing problem? Maybe it was restricted to that one make and model year of the SUV I rented and is not the issue in most vehicles or has been remedied since then, or maybe that was just the beginning of a growing problem. Has anyone else experienced this in their own vehicles, or a vehicle they were a passenger in, where it seemed too quiet? Maybe you just don't notice until you see the flashing lights and realize you don't hear the sound?

 

[Danger]

What I haven't gotten a sense of yet is whether overly soundproofed vehicles are a growing problem? Maybe it was restricted to that one make and model year of the SUV I rented and is not the issue in most vehicles or has been remedied since then, or maybe that was just the beginning of a growing problem.

I don't know much about new vehicles, but one of the Ford truck ads is bragging about it being something like 3db quieter inside than an S-type Mercedes.

Has anyone else experienced this in their own vehicles

I have enough trouble keeping snow out of my car, never mind noise.
It is a little difficult to hear some external sounds over the whining in the transfer case and the tire lugs on the pavement and the 455 breathing through an open-element filter, but a siren is definitely noticeable.

 

[BicycleTree]

You have to weigh it against the cost of a solution. Just because people are dying is not a reason to fix the problem, if the fix is too much trouble and the people dying are too few. Notice that the USA does not have foreign aid as a high priority. If it did, it would save many additional lives at a pretty low cost per life. So is it worth it to save three or four lives a year (probably a realistic figure, since the number of people dying in ambulance crashes yearly is in the low tens) in a country of 300 million with drawn-out legislation, or are your efforts better spent pushing for foreign aid?

 

[Moonbear]

A review of the Ambulance Crash Log (http://www.emsnetwork.org/artman/publish/ambulance-crashes.shtml) on the EMS Network News (http://www.emsnetwork.org) site is full of daily reports of ambulances and other emergency vehicles involved in crashes while operating Code 3. Over the past decade, several studies have been undertaken to put this issue into perspective. Here are some staggering statistics from this research:

· 12,000 emergency medical vehicle crashes occur each year in the United States and Canada as a result of Code 3 responses[1].
· 60,000 “Wake effect" crashes are caused annually from emergency units confusing and startling other drivers[2].
· Use of Code 3 responses reduces times an average of 43.5 seconds.
· 300 fatal ambulance crashes occurred between 1991 and 2000[3].
· 25% of firefighter fatalities are due to vehicle crashes occurring when the firefighter is either responding to or returning from an emergency incident.
· In the last 10 years, more than 225 firefighters have been killed in the line of duty as a result of a vehicle crash[4].

http://www.emsnetwork.org/artman/publish/article_14314.shtml

Sorry, BT, but the problem is larger than you suggest. Further, any fatality is too much. If a little piece of technology can help prevent deaths without trampling on anyone's rights, then yes, people dying is a reason to fix that problem. Some of us don't put dollar signs on the value of life. I personally can't stand that attitude that we have to wait for deaths to reach some magic number before we do something about it when there is a way to prevent it at our hands.

Interestingly, at the site I linked to, one of the issues raised is that some of the problem might be in responding with lights and sirens, that some drivers hear the sirens and get confused about which way to go and that leads to accidents, as do the high speeds of responding code 3, when it only shaves a few minutes off the response time. These people take on high risk jobs to save the lives of others. I think the least we owe them is to do what we can to make their job a bit safer, especially if vehicles are being designed in a way that may be making the risk greater than it has been historically?

 

[Danger]

people dying is a reason to fix that problem. Some of us don't put dollar signs on the value of life.

Bravo! And there seems to be a tendency to overlook the obvious here. So what if only one person gets killed in a particular accident... what about the dozens or hundreds of people who die in the hotel fire that the truck was prevented from getting to? Or the people killed by a sniper because the cops can't reach the scene?