Are Elementary Particles Distinguishable?

In summary, the conversation discusses the notion of objective existence of elementary particles in relation to distinguishability. The formulation of quantum theory suggests that if elementary particles have an objective existence independent of observation, then they are distinguishable. However, this conflicts with the concept of indistinguishability within quantum statistics. A specific example of this is seen in the unique positions of atoms in quasicrystals, where each atom is distinguishable. The discussion also touches on the experiment conducted by M. Torres and Al, which shows the same order in electrons as in quasicrystals. However, this raises questions about the role of unique positions of electrons and the limitations of current observation methods.
  • #1
bilha nissenson
26
0
The formulation of quantum theory does not comply with the notion of objective existence of elementary particles. Objective existence independent of observation implies the distinguishability of elementary particles. In other words: If elementary particles have an objective existence independent of observations, then they are distinguishable. Or if elementary particles are indistinguishable then matter cannot have existence independent of our observation.

so, what do you think? Are Elementary Particles Distinguishable?
 
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  • #2
bilha nissenson said:
The formulation of quantum theory does not comply with the notion of objective existence of elementary particles. Objective existence independent of observation implies the distinguishability of elementary particles. In other words: If elementary particles have an objective existence independent of observations, then they are distinguishable. Or if elementary particles are indistinguishable then matter cannot have existence independent of our observation.

so, what do you think? Are Elementary Particles Distinguishable?

You are using the word "distinguishable" without realizing that that word has been "reserved" for a particular mathematical description within quantum statistics.

Would you like to use a specific example to illustrate what you mean?

Indistinguishibility within quantum statistics is what causes the Fermi-Dirac and Bose-Einsteins statistics. These have specific, unambiguous mathematical description. What you describe is a bit confusing, because I can distinguish a top quark from a bottom quark, and I can distinguish between a muon and a tau.

If you do not have specific physics to discuss here, then there's a possibility that this thread may be moved to the Philosophy forum.

Zz.
 
  • #3
ZapperZ said:
You are using the word "distinguishable" without realizing that that word has been "reserved" for a particular mathematical description within quantum statistics.

Would you like to use a specific example to illustrate what you mean?

Indistinguishibility within quantum statistics is what causes the Fermi-Dirac and Bose-Einsteins statistics. These have specific, unambiguous mathematical description. What you describe is a bit confusing, because I can distinguish a top quark from a bottom quark, and I can distinguish between a muon and a tau.

If you do not have specific physics to discuss here, then there's a possibility that this thread may be moved to the Philosophy forum.

Zz.


one quantum specific example:

A quantum example for uniqueness of position

In Quasicrystals atoms are joined together in a long range order. One can visualize this order as Penrose tiling, where a shifted copy will never match exactly with its original. In such an order each intersection, which in quasicrystals marks the position of an atom, is a unique position upon an infinite grid, in that sense each atom have a unique position and in that sense is distinguishable. Atoms that form quasicrystals, (molecules), are quite heavy, and include at least thousands of elementary particles.
In their experiment, M. Torres and Al [11] have found out that the same order can be demonstrated for the electrons themselves:
“The spacing between the wave peaks (of the electron waves) was not constant, as in a periodic wave, but varied quasiperiodically between two values, which were related to the spacing in the pattern on the pan's bottom.”

Experiments revealing the exact circumstances for which a diffraction of quasicrystals disappear, by marking (with radioactive isotope etc.) very few atoms of the grid, might reveal information that will enable further understanding of the role of the unique position of each atom in the quasiperiodic grid. For observable results, doing the diffraction on the molecules as is done now would not be enough, what is needed is to get a refraction off the wave peaks as described in [11] but then how could we mark the electrons?
 
  • #4
you could say that this is redundant, but I have a reply, so let me know.
 
  • #5
bilha nissenson said:
one quantum specific example:

A quantum example for uniqueness of position

In Quasicrystals atoms are joined together in a long range order. One can visualize this order as Penrose tiling, where a shifted copy will never match exactly with its original. In such an order each intersection, which in quasicrystals marks the position of an atom, is a unique position upon an infinite grid, in that sense each atom have a unique position and in that sense is distinguishable. Atoms that form quasicrystals, (molecules), are quite heavy, and include at least thousands of elementary particles.
In their experiment, M. Torres and Al [11] have found out that the same order can be demonstrated for the electrons themselves:
“The spacing between the wave peaks (of the electron waves) was not constant, as in a periodic wave, but varied quasiperiodically between two values, which were related to the spacing in the pattern on the pan's bottom.”

Experiments revealing the exact circumstances for which a diffraction of quasicrystals disappear, by marking (with radioactive isotope etc.) very few atoms of the grid, might reveal information that will enable further understanding of the role of the unique position of each atom in the quasiperiodic grid. For observable results, doing the diffraction on the molecules as is done now would not be enough, what is needed is to get a refraction off the wave peaks as described in [11] but then how could we mark the electrons?

I just read this, and it makes no sense or connection as far as your faulty usage of the term "distinguishsibility". You STILL haven't addressed the fact that such a term has already been "reserved" for how one can exchange such particles in statistical mechanics.

If you are able to actually TRACK individual electrons having these "unique positions", I'd like to see it. This violates the indistinguishibility of Fermi-Dirac electrons within a solid. I'm willing to bet that you have misinterpreted this [11] paper, which you have conveniently omitted a full reference to. Where did you 'cut-and-paste' this from?

Zz.
 
  • #6
  • #7
bilha nissenson said:
have cut past it from my own article which by coincidence was published today,

http://arxiv.org/abs/0711.3539


I hate to burst your bubble, but appearing on arXiv isn't "publishing". Please note that we do not recommend using Arxiv extensively as a reference. We prefer the use of peer-reviewed journals. So to which journal did you submit this to?

You also haven't addressed the point that I made.

Zz.
 
  • #8
Er... I should have put a bet on, because I was right. You misinterpreted your Ref. 11. by thinking that the Bloch wavefunction has anything to do with your quasicrystal. I strongly suggest that you first study off a solid state physics text before you apply something you do not understand.

I also recommend you re-read the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5374" that you have agreed to. Pay particular attention to personal theory. This thread appears to be your attempt at discussing/advertising your paper that isn't peer-reviewed, and thus violates our rules.

Zz.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

1. What are elementary particles?

Elementary particles are the smallest units of matter and energy that make up the universe. They include particles such as electrons, quarks, and neutrinos.

2. How are elementary particles distinguished from each other?

Elementary particles are distinguished by their properties, such as mass, charge, spin, and flavor. These properties are unique to each particle and allow scientists to differentiate between them.

3. Are all elementary particles distinguishable?

No, not all elementary particles are distinguishable. Some particles, such as photons, have identical properties and cannot be distinguished from each other.

4. What is the significance of distinguishable elementary particles?

The distinguishability of elementary particles is important in understanding the fundamental building blocks of the universe and how they interact with each other. It also plays a role in quantum mechanics and the behavior of particles at the subatomic level.

5. Can the distinguishability of elementary particles change?

Yes, the distinguishability of elementary particles can change depending on the conditions they are in. For example, in extreme conditions such as high temperatures or pressures, particles may lose their individual properties and become indistinguishable from each other.

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