Belief in Reincarnation Tied to Memory Errors

[asickler]

Ok, first allow me to say I am not a physicist or physics student, I'm just really curious about this...

I google searched human memory and conservation of energy, and it directed me here...

I am a psychology student and have recently been thinking about memory in terms of conservation of energy/mass. When the body metabolizes food, it creates energy, and to create thought, you need energy- right? My question is, if that memory is not stored as long-term memory, it is discarded (forgotten). What happens to it then? Is thought a form of energy? If so, does that energy get released in another form when it is forgotten? Any thoughts? (no pun intended)

 

[VooDooX]

maybe the memory cells digest the old memories to create new ones using the bits and if you do have a memory if you cleaned out the memory cell or cells that are holding that memory of all foreign matter built up in the cell (debris) but left the cell functioning would you still remember that thing and where are memories stored are we just sophisticated computers helping the actual living things (our cells) with help i will cite the HeLA cell as reference to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa
A HeLa cell is an immortal cell line used in scientific research. The cell line was derived from cervical cancer cells taken from Henrietta Lacks, who died from her cancer on October 4, 1951. are cancer just cells in the body that are tired of helping the body and want to go do there own thing? another item i would like to cite in this claim is Social Amoebas that transform from cingular cell to multi cellular (including an immune system and digestive tract http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081124203654.htm anyways are we alive really? or just a computer that our cells will one day turn off?

 

[Galteeth]

There are a lot of compelling cases for reincarnation. Dismissing reincarnation would be no different than dismissing any religious belief, so no, we can't just say it's not true, IMHO.

I choose not to believe in reincarnation because this life is bad enough, I really don't want to do it again.

Yes. If consciousness is merely the product of physical matter in our brains (as most scientists think) then re-incarnation is an unlikely prospect. However, there is still the question of what unifies different conscious states into a continuous spectrum. Obviously, the physical matter in my brain is not the same as it was when I was five, but I still seem to be the same subjective "I".
If on the other hand, some form of dualism is true, and there is an independent something that our brains are projecting onto that is the true essence of "I", then re-incarnation is a possibility, although it is a long way off from even being capable of being formatted into a coherent theory. Untill we discover more about the fundamental nature of consciousness (and I am anticipating those in the Dennet camp who say there is no mystery) such things can neither be verified or falsified, although belief in such at this point does seem to violate ockham's razor.

 

[Pattonias]

You know, I find the ideas behind the development of the mind very interesting. I don't feel any different than I did when I had my first memories. I can say that things make more sense now than they did before, but I don't actually "feel" any differently. My whims and interests change, but I don't feel that my being itself has changed. I think that I am behaving differently because of new experiences, not because my mind is any different.

My first long term memory was with my grandfather. I remember being with him at a car in a snowstorm that was filled with snow. I remember he handed me a small broom and I was sweeping snow off of the seats and off of the floor boards. I remember that I thought it was fun and I was fascinated by the really powdery snow. He was working under the hood while I was doing this and he eventually jump started the car and I remember how bright the lights were. I have other very specific memories that I did not understand until I was older. I remember him attaching a battery warmer to the battery in the car. I obviously did not know what this was or what its significance was. And I remember him attaching the jumper cables. I was really interested by this and watched him really closely.

A few years ago I found a picture of a car the reminded me of this and asked my grandfather about it. He said that it was in fact the same car, although I don't remember whether he said it was full of snow because the windows were down or because it didn't have doors. My memory seems to think it didn't have doors, but I never clarified this. He was really amazed that I remembered this, because I had just learned to walk. I was very young. I can say with fair certainty that this really was my first memory.

I don't feel that my mind was any less capable during this memory than it is know. (Maybe it was like the first boot of a new OS)

 

[baywax]

anyways are we alive really? or just a computer that our cells will one day turn off?

Yes we're alive and at the mercy of our genetics/environment. A more apt metaphor would be to say that our cells are computers that our genes/environment will one day turn off.

 

[VooDooX]

are you sure baywax? you can't control many aspects of your body that you need to survive. you body doesn't trust you with that ability. the only things we have control over that are regulated are breathing and blinking... nothign else. can't slow or speed our hearts, can't decide we need some adrenaline. (this would be helpful in a heart attack) most of the functions that are going on are fully autonomous, and we have no feedback from them at all .. all our cells have there own whims and minds. we can't control them all that much. immune cells do there job but you have no input from them ,and don't know there working. but chug along they go. we are the operating system that navigates our body. i bet the first life came to this planet as a microbe on a comet, and then since the creatures that extracted energy the fastest reproduced the most they eventually took over. the world then there were predators to clear up some of the less successful creatures, and up the chain it went. all the way to us our goal is to help the smallest creatures on the planet capture energy more efficiently if you follow logic and follow the food chain you will see the true dominators of this planet. Imagine billions of life forms teeming in the hot, underground regions of the Earth. scientists now believe that the amount of underground life in this planet outweighs life on the Earth's surface. Microbes have been found in hot springs to volcanoes ice lakes to the frozen poles . ... even int he most inhospitable environments on Earth microbes find a way they out number us trillions of trillions to one who do you think really rules this world? its not us we would die if a meteor struck or a nuclear holocaust occurred microbes wouldn't die unless the whole planet was molten

 

[Pattonias]

are you sure baywax? you can't control many aspects of your body that you need to survive. you body doesn't trust you with that ability. the only things we have control over that are regulated are breathing and blinking... nothign else. can't slow or speed our hearts, can't decide we need some adrenaline. (this would be helpful in a heart attack) most of the functions that are going on are fully autonomous, and we have no feedback from them at all .. all our cells have there own whims and minds. we can't control them all that much. immune cells do there job but you have no input from them ,and don't know there working. but chug along they go. we are the operating system that navigates our body. i bet the first life came to this planet as a microbe on a comet, and then since the creatures that extracted energy the fastest reproduced the most they eventually took over. the world then there were predators to clear up some of the less successful creatures, and up the chain it went. all the way to us our goal is to help the smallest creatures on the planet capture energy more efficiently if you follow logic and follow the food chain you will see the true dominators of this planet. Imagine billions of life forms teeming in the hot, underground regions of the Earth. scientists now believe that the amount of underground life in this planet outweighs life on the Earth's surface. Microbes have been found in hot springs to volcanoes ice lakes to the frozen poles . ... even int he most inhospitable environments on Earth microbes find a way they out number us trillions of trillions to one who do you think really rules this world? its not us we would die if a meteor struck or a nuclear holocaust occurred microbes wouldn't die unless the whole planet was molten

You could argue that our cells somehow organized as a collective mind for self-preservation, but you have to agree that our mind is well beyond that now. We are capable of making decisions that are totally out of sink with the well being of our individual cells. If all the cells in our body were actually making the decisions, then it would not make sense for us to be able to cause harm to ourselves in ways that would be so obvious.

 

[Garth]

http://www.livescience.com/othernews/070406_past_lives.html
I should also add that there was one event visualized that was very moving and difficult to shake. To this day [~fifteen years later], in spite of everything that I have said here, that particular memory seems real.

Ivan, would you like to share that memory with the rest of us?

Garth

 

[asickler]

Would I be correct in saying that thought is a wave (brain waves)?

 

[asickler]

are you sure baywax? you can't control many aspects of your body that you need to survive. you body doesn't trust you with that ability. the only things we have control over that are regulated are breathing and blinking... nothign else. can't slow or speed our hearts, can't decide we need some adrenaline. (this would be helpful in a heart attack) most of the functions that are going on are fully autonomous, and we have no feedback from them at all .. all our cells have there own whims and minds. we can't control them all that much. immune cells do there job but you have no input from them ,and don't know there working. but chug along they go. we are the operating system that navigates our body. i bet the first life came to this planet as a microbe on a comet, and then since the creatures that extracted energy the fastest reproduced the most they eventually took over. the world then there were predators to clear up some of the less successful creatures, and up the chain it went. all the way to us our goal is to help the smallest creatures on the planet capture energy more efficiently if you follow logic and follow the food chain you will see the true dominators of this planet. Imagine billions of life forms teeming in the hot, underground regions of the Earth. scientists now believe that the amount of underground life in this planet outweighs life on the Earth's surface. Microbes have been found in hot springs to volcanoes ice lakes to the frozen poles . ... even int he most inhospitable environments on Earth microbes find a way they out number us trillions of trillions to one who do you think really rules this world? its not us we would die if a meteor struck or a nuclear holocaust occurred microbes wouldn't die unless the whole planet was molten

And by the way, we can control our heart rate. Buddhist monks do it all the time, look it up. It has also been proven that humans can thermoregulate through mental discipline. Eastern monks generally are known for being able to do this.

 

[Galteeth]

And by the way, we can control our heart rate. Buddhist monks do it all the time, look it up. It has also been proven that humans can thermoregulate through mental discipline. Eastern monks generally are known for being able to do this.

Please provide sources. Thanks.

 

[asickler]

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

 

[baywax]

are you sure baywax? you can't control many aspects of your body that you need to survive. you body doesn't trust you with that ability. the only things we have control over that are regulated are breathing and blinking... nothign else. can't slow or speed our hearts, can't decide we need some adrenaline. (this would be helpful in a heart attack) most of the functions that are going on are fully autonomous, and we have no feedback from them at all .. all our cells have there own whims and minds. we can't control them all that much. immune cells do there job but you have no input from them ,and don't know there working. but chug along they go. we are the operating system that navigates our body. i bet the first life came to this planet as a microbe on a comet, and then since the creatures that extracted energy the fastest reproduced the most they eventually took over. the world then there were predators to clear up some of the less successful creatures, and up the chain it went. all the way to us our goal is to help the smallest creatures on the planet capture energy more efficiently if you follow logic and follow the food chain you will see the true dominators of this planet. Imagine billions of life forms teeming in the hot, underground regions of the Earth. scientists now believe that the amount of underground life in this planet outweighs life on the Earth's surface. Microbes have been found in hot springs to volcanoes ice lakes to the frozen poles . ... even int he most inhospitable environments on Earth microbes find a way they out number us trillions of trillions to one who do you think really rules this world? its not us we would die if a meteor struck or a nuclear holocaust occurred microbes wouldn't die unless the whole planet was molten

Yes but all of the traits of the humans and other life forms are only here because the genes that express to support those traits are still in our gene pools. If they had been weeded out through natural selection we would still be eating ants off of a stick. When the traits we call "free will" and "self determination" turn out to be duds in the face of certain environmental conditions... the whole game changes.

Now, after say, 1000 years of no free will and less self determination because of raw survival demands due to environmental conditions... will humans begin again to build, innovate and read books etc... and will all of this be considered reincarnation because it will feel like we've done it before?

 

[Galteeth]

Yes but all of the traits of the humans and other life forms are only here because the genes that express to support those traits are still in our gene pools. If they had been weeded out through natural selection we would still be eating ants off of a stick. When the traits we call "free will" and "self determination" turn out to be duds in the face of certain environmental conditions... the whole game changes.

Now, after say, 1000 years of no free will and less self determination because of raw survival demands due to environmental conditions... will humans begin again to build, innovate and read books etc... and will all of this be considered reincarnation because it will feel like we've done it before?

That does of course bring up the question what the evolutionary purpose of subjective self-awareness is.

 

[baywax]

That does of course bring up the question what the evolutionary purpose of subjective self-awareness is.

Obvious. It gives us the illusion that we're in control. Animals who feel controlled die out sooner... Take the farmed cows, pigs, chickens, lab rats and so forth... for example. Now, I know they are being slaughtered but... that is not to be taken into consideration. They're whole natural state has been altered by control and they are, individually, on the brink of extinction... in a controlled and perpetual manner.

Also, subjective reasoning has proven to be a source of new ideas and ways of surviving modern life as well as in the wild.

 

[Galteeth]

Obvious. It gives us the illusion that we're in control. Animals who feel controlled die out sooner... Take the farmed cows, pigs, chickens, lab rats and so forth... for example. Now, I know they are being slaughtered but... that is not to be taken into consideration. They're whole natural state has been altered by control and they are, individually, on the brink of extinction... in a controlled and perpetual manner.

Also, subjective reasoning has proven to be a source of new ideas and ways of surviving modern life as well as in the wild.

But hypotheticaly, one can imagine a brain that performs all the same calculation functions advantageous to the organism's survival, but without providing the subjective sense of self-awareness. Such a scenario is referred to in philosophy as a "p-zombie." The necessity of a subjective consciousness (not the objective functions of consciousness) is something of a mystery.

 

[baywax]

But hypotheticaly, one can imagine a brain that performs all the same calculation functions advantageous to the organism's survival, but without providing the subjective sense of self-awareness. Such a scenario is referred to in philosophy as a "p-zombie." The necessity of a subjective consciousness (not the objective functions of consciousness) is something of a mystery.

That and the necessity of an appendix... or wisdom teeth... or skin flaps and cancer.

 

[Galteeth]

That and the necessity of an appendix... or wisdom teeth... or skin flaps and cancer.

Those are fallacious comparisons. The appendix is an evolutionary hold over. Wisdom teeth are used for mastication. Cancer is a disease from disregulation of cell growth. All of these are describable in terms of evolution. I think you don't understand my point.

 

[Galteeth]

Let meput this another way. Let's say you have an android whose cybernetic brain reproduces the calculations of the human brain. Would it be consciouss (in the sense of possesing subjective self awareness)? Why or why not? Is some form of organic materil required? Is it the electrical activity? Is it some intrinsic property of information complexity?
We know that stimulating certain rod and cone cells produce sensations of vision. Would stimulating these cells without connection to the striate cotex producs "units" of subjective visual experience? What i the subjectiven entity that would experience such? Would adding the striate alone help? Or is the whle brain necessary? What is the cutoff line between subjective experienc and no subjective experience?
And directly to the point, why is it necessary at all? The subjective "am" of cogito ergo sum does not seem to be necessary in an immediate sense to the function of the brain. A computer does not require subjective perception to function. Do you see what I mean?

 

[baywax]

Those are fallacious comparisons. The appendix is an evolutionary hold over. Wisdom teeth are used for mastication. Cancer is a disease from disregulation of cell growth. All of these are describable in terms of evolution. I think you don't understand my point.

Self awareness is a product of human evolution as is an appendix. All I'm saying is that mutations take place, traits are developed and if they work toward continuing a species they remain a functioning part of its physiology. If you think the neuronal mechanisms involved in producing subjective self awareness are anything more than a physiological adaptation to the environment I would beg to differ.

 

[VooDooX]

why would the trait of self awareness help at all? and are all animals self aware? i don't know i can tell you I am pretty sure a dog, and a horse, and most mammals seem self aware to me. but an insect or a plant does not i don't think an insect has an awareness. its more of a robot then anything else being ordered by its cells for example... too hot here move, too cold here move, hungry eat, and so on. but i don't think it ponders what's going on other then that. some live far too short to need such a thing why we have self awareness is beyond me maybe as intelligence increases it just sinks in. when we naturally wonder what we are that we are a continuing being. this leaves me to speculate that computers once they reach a certain intelligence, may accidentally acquire this trait. as each motherboard is ever so slightly different then the next. even tho manufactured to strict tolerances. computers besides the point it can be argued we are just a very advanced computer developed by life over the eons to control the body and that may very well be all we are a self aware organic computer. just because we can make real computers doesn't mean nature hasn't already done a far better job, given its billions of years. the human brain acts very similar to a computer in almost every way, so you would be hard pressed to argue that this cannot be true.

 

[Galteeth]

Self awareness is a product of human evolution as is an appendix. All I'm saying is that mutations take place, traits are developed and if they work toward continuing a species they remain a functioning part of its physiology. If you think the neuronal mechanisms involved in producing subjective self awareness are anything more than a physiological adaptation to the environment I would beg to differ.

I don't. I agree, they (the mechanisms that produce self-awareness) are the result of evolution. What I am not sure about is what the function of subjective self awareness is.

 

[baywax]

why would the trait of self awareness help at all? and are all animals self aware? i don't know i can tell you I am pretty sure a dog, and a horse, and most mammals seem self aware to me. but an insect or a plant does not i don't think an insect has an awareness. its more of a robot then anything else being ordered by its cells for example... too hot here move, too cold here move, hungry eat, and so on. but i don't think it ponders what's going on other then that. some live far too short to need such a thing why we have self awareness is beyond me maybe as intelligence increases it just sinks in. when we naturally wonder what we are that we are a continuing being. this leaves me to speculate that computers once they reach a certain intelligence, may accidentally acquire this trait. as each motherboard is ever so slightly different then the next. even tho manufactured to strict tolerances. computers besides the point it can be argued we are just a very advanced computer developed by life over the eons to control the body and that may very well be all we are a self aware organic computer. just because we can make real computers doesn't mean nature hasn't already done a far better job, given its billions of years. the human brain acts very similar to a computer in almost every way, so you would be hard pressed to argue that this cannot be true.

Self awareness has helped humans to survive in a manner to which they have become accustomed.

We can't, at the moment, pin point the exact self awareness areas of the brain. There are rude guesses but no specific region or group of regions that stand out like the visual cortex does and so on. If we were able to see a difference between the neurons that act as self awareness generators we might be able to discern if insects carry the same neurons. That wouldn't prove they do or don't have self awareness since they may have the genealogical physiology for the function while, perhaps, not using it.

I do know a bee appears to exhibit a degree of self awareness in that it knows it has to do a dance to communicate with its peers. This would indicate that the bee has an awareness of its individuality in relation to its work mates and that its individuality is of some importance to the survival of the group.

I don't know if bees believe they are reincarnated from chain saws or from an aunt on Andy of Mayberry.

 

[baywax]

I don't. I agree, they (the mechanisms that produce self-awareness) are the result of evolution. What I am not sure about is what the function of subjective self awareness is.

The product of a mechanism is as much a result of evolution as the mechanism itself. Not only is a function's product the result of evolution, it will go on to become a factor in evolution because it becomes a part of the environment... which determines mutation/adaptation etc.

 

[Galteeth]

The product of a mechanism is as much a result of evolution as the mechanism itself. Not only is a function's product the result of evolution, it will go on to become a factor in evolution because it becomes a part of the environment... which determines mutation/adaptation etc.

Yes, but still it's not clear what specific factor the subjective experience of awareness (not the objective functions of such) plays in evolution. And I don't doubt that it does, so don't misunderstand me. I am just trying to point out that there is something there that we don't quite grasp yet.

On a related note, I am reading this very interesting book by Richard Hofstadter called I am a Strange Loop. I am not finished yet, but it seems as those he may have some specific ideas in regard to this.

 

[baywax]

Yes, but still it's not clear what specific factor the subjective experience of awareness (not the objective functions of such) plays in evolution.

The subjective experience of awareness clearly dictates behaviour. From there, behaviour becomes an enormous influence on the individual and the individual's environment. These two factors are two of the building blocks of evolution.

But this is as far off topic as things can get. Unless we are trying to tie evolution into reincarnation the thread appears to be de-railing.

 

[baywax]

Reincarnation: It's Background
Reincarnation comes from the Hindu-buddhist philosophy of soul transmigration. This is the "religious" concept of the eternal birth-death-birth cycle, where a soul moves from body to body. The status of each successive body, whether human or animal, is the direct result of the quality of the life the soul led in the previous body. Thus, a "good" life results in rebirth to a higher quality form, and a "bad" life results in rebirth to a lower quality form. This forward and backward progression is based on the Law of Karma, a central foundation of Hinduism and other Eastern-based philosophies. As most of us know, Karma teaches that good deeds are rewarded and bad deeds are punished. The ultimate goal in this Karma cycle is for the soul to progress to the highest level of existence and become one with the universe. Reincarnation is taught side-by-side with pantheism, the belief that everything is God and God is in everything. Reincarnation and pantheism are the central doctrines of Hinduism and occultism, variations of which have grown popular in the Western world in recent decades.

http://www.allaboutspirituality.org/reincarnation.htm

For me to understand reincarnation I guess I'll have to understand what a "soul" is. Any suggestions? (I'd prefer a physical rather than metaphysical explanation if possible)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

http://www.allaboutspirituality.org/reincarnation.htm

For me to understand reincarnation I guess I'll have to understand what a "soul" is. Any suggestions? (I'd prefer a physical rather than metaphysical explanation if possible)

That would not be appropriate. A little background is okay, but we are only interested in any potential evidence supporting the claims of or beliefs in reincarnation.

 

[baywax]

That would not be appropriate. A little background is okay, but we are only interested in any potential evidence supporting the claims of or beliefs in reincarnation.

Please excuse any inappropriateness on my part at this sensitive time of year.

The only evidence I've seen or heard of about reincarnation is the stories of young children walking through a village they've never visited and knowing the side streets and the people by name.