News Biden: New Israel would be 'ill-advised' to attack Iran

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Biden's administration has publicly opposed any potential Israeli military action against Iran, suggesting that such an attack could escalate into a broader conflict involving U.S. forces in Iraq. The discussion highlights a belief that the Iranian nuclear program is not an immediate threat, with some arguing that the U.S. uses this issue to maintain sanctions and strengthen its negotiating position. Concerns are raised that an Israeli strike could provoke Iranian retaliation, potentially leading to a regional or global war. The emotional and nationalistic dimensions of Iran's nuclear ambitions complicate the situation, as many Iranians view U.S. support for Israel as an infringement on their sovereignty. Overall, the dialogue reflects deep-seated tensions and the precarious balance of power in the Middle East.
  • #91
General issues first:
Count Iblis said:
Russ more or less argued that Israel bombing an Iranian nuclear powerplant is a legal, sort of, law enforcement operation
Yes, that's actually quite a good paraphrase of that position of mine, though I don't think I'd use the term "law enforcement operation". It is problematic...
...and that Iran would be the aggressor if they would retalliate.
I have said nothing of the sort and that is not my position.
He actually argued that that Iran would not retalliate, so there would be no war.
Yes, and just so we're clear, whether they would doesn't have a whole lot to do with whether they should or whether it would be legal/just for them to do so.
The fact that an Israeli attack would, in fact, be an act of war, eludes him.
It most certainly does not. Quite obviously, any airstrike by anyone, anywhere, is an act of war. But it seems to me that you are applying a type of logic that doesn't have any relevance and is, in any case, wrong:
act of war = illegal
not an act of war = legal
Whether an act is an act of war or not or legal or not, these two things are not directly related. Acts of war can be legal or illegal and legal or illgal acts may or may not be acts of war.
The fact that Syrian and Iraq in the past chose not to retalliate is besides the point. There are reasons why they didn't do that.
Perhaps...
The case of Iran is diferent because you need quite a large scale bombing campaign.
Perhaps...
And unlike the Iraqi and Syrian rectors, the Iranian nuclear installations are not sectret...
Iraq's reactor was most certainly not secret! The French sold it to them openly!
..and the iranian people are in support of the nuclear program.
That's true, but that doesn't imply that they or their leaders would want to go to war over it.
So, as far as Iran would be concerned, an attack on their nuclear installatons would be no different as how the US would regard an attack on US nuclear installations.
The US has far greater capacity to respond than Iran does. If Iran went after Israel, it would be devastating to Iran and that is the main reason why Iran wouldn't do it. Iran isn't quite that suicidal.
So, very hypothetically, if Kim were somehow to fire CMBs and take out some targets in the US, would Obama then say: "Well, that's bad news, but we are not going to do anything against it." :smile:
Iran is not the US and has nowhere near the capacity to respond as we do. I realize they value honor, but to attack Israel would be suicidal. The leadership of Iran would not risk their own lives over it.
 
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  • #92
Well firstly, any Israeli plan to attack Iran's nuclear reactors would be disastrous due to the following reasons;

1. Iran has a lot of nuclear sites around the country in places like Natanz, Esfahan etc. It would be much more complicated than the Osirak strike; Iran would probably have a better anti aircraft defence system than Iraq had at the time plus the sheer logistics involved in an operation which would involve refuelling, planning multiple routes to attack all the reactors, a thorough intelligence gathering mission are all against the likelihood of a strike.

2. Iran would not back down and use its proxies like Hezbollah and Hamas to wreck havoc on Israel's security. What happened in 2006 and recently in Gaza would be incomparable to what Israel would face if Iran ordered its proxies to attack Israel. Hezbollah already has rockets that can target Tel Aviv and Hamas will target the other cities. What you will see are thousands of rockets raining down on Israeli cities and guerilla warfare against Israeli soldiers. Do not underestimate Hezbollah, they stopped an Israeli attack in Lebanon and they will retaliate.

3. Iran has hundreds of Silkworm missiles hidden and they will use them to seriously disrupt shipping in the Strait of Hormuz. Such an attack would send oil prices soaring and worsen the economic situation in the United States. It would also cause a major environmental disaster.

4. Iran may also use its proxies mainly Al Sadr in Iraq and other Shiite groups to create a hell hole for American troops in Iraq and casualties would mount.

Basically, I do not see any logic in attacking Iran when mostly, the real threat comes from radical elements within the Pakistani government or even countries like Saudi Arabia who funnel money to Sunni insurgent groups who then attack American and British soldiers. Iran can be a stabilising influence in the Middle East and it is time we stopped treating them like an enemy. Iran is not exactly an angel but still, we have lots to gain if we negotiate with them and too much to lose if Israel goes to war with them.

Iran would not attack Israel with nuclear weapons, it is not sucidal. It knows Israel would annihilate Iran with its own nukes. You should read Robert Baer's book The Devil we Know for more information, very enlightening book!
 
  • #93
Count Iblis said:
Except for the minor issue of failing to report the uranium from China and the plutonium extraction, there were no violations at all. So, I don't see what all the fuss is about.
So except for the violations, there were no violations? What sort of sillyness is this? You said:
Iran did not violate any agreements since negotiations started in 2003.
So either you weren't aware of the violations or you were being purposely deceitful in your argument and were hoping I wouldn't not notice.
Why not simply consider two hypothetical Irans:

1) Iran wants to produce nuclear weapons.

2) Iran does not want to produce nuclear weapons, it wants to be able to produce fuel for nuclear powerplants.

and analyze what the best strategy for both Irans would be.
Reasonable approach...
In case of 1) Iran would paradoxically be better off agreeing to the incentives deal. Just sign the deal, close down Natanz, get sanctions lifted. Then build a small enrichment facility in a secret location and produce the small amount of highly enriched uranium needed for a bomb over the course of several years.
If Iran is doing the enriching in secret, why does it matter if they accept a deal or not? Heck, wouldn't it be tougher to operate the enrichment program in secret with inspectors crawling all over the country (and keeping track of the fuel)? That doesn't seem to me to be a reasonable argument for accepting a deal.
In case of 2) Iran wants to be able to generate the fuel in needs for a few 1000 megawatt powerplants that it intends to build in the future. It intends to do that within the NPT framework, so it will allow for inspections of the facility at Natanz. The number of centrifuges Iran needs is far larger than if they just wanted to make few bombs. To make sure Iran doesn't diver uranium for a weapons program and becase of general suspicions, Iran is willing to gree to iuntrusive inspections, provided, of course, the objections to Iran's enrichment program are dropped.

Because of these more intrusive inspections in case of 2) the hypothetical Iran that wants to make bombs in 1) would prefer not go go this route and do as I suggested above: Accept the incentives deal and then secretely violate that deal.
So you're saying that if Iran truly wants peaceful reactors and has nothing to hide, then they should accept and adhere to the NPT? And if they want weapons, they should pretend to adhere to the NPT but actually violate it. Since we know they don't adhere to the NPT, aren't you arguing against your own point? They are acting exactly as you say they would if they were really trying to produce nuclear weapons.
To see the difference between the necessary enrichment capacity needed to make a nuclear device and the capacity you need to produce fuel, consider this calculation.


A 15 kiloton nuclear bomb contains an amount of fissionable energy of about 6.3×10^13 joules. A 1000 megawatt nuclear powerplant will use this in a time of:


6.3×10^13 joules/(1000 megawatt)= 17.5 hours


So, Iran would need to be able to produce this amount of enriched uranium (to low levels) in less than 17.5 hours to power just a single 1000 megawatt powerplant.
No. Centrifuges in parallel can create large quantities of low enriched uranium and centrifugres in series can create small quantities of high enriched uranium. It isn't like each gram or joule of uranium takes the same amount of time to separate regardless of the amount of enrichment. It takes thousands of times longer to make enriched uranium, on a per joule basis.

[edit] It is also important to note that neither in a bomb nor in a reactor does all fissible material react.
 
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  • #94
Since someone else is replying and speaking for me, I'll respond myself...
AhmedEzz said:
"Historical precident" is not relevant because the circumstances are not the same Russ. You are calling for some previous similar attack, thing is , there wasn't any. The Iraqi attack was different and had different circumstances. The political setting is very different now. For example arguing that Egypt was not going to launch a war against Israel and reclaim Sinai just because of the previous "historical" encounter is not very clever.
I'm not following you there - I don't think anyone has mentioned egypt.
Well as you should know, Iran has sheer numbers of militia fighters. Moreover, those people being as hardliners as they are, are not simply going to lay down while their national pride is being spit at.
And that worked ok* against Hussein in the '80s, but Israel today is not Iraq from the '80s.
Annihilation ?? I thought you were smarter than that !...the "Hussein" example couldn't come in a worse time. Imagine the Iraq nightmare the US went through and multiply that by 3, that is if US will use all its might (excluding WMD). Which brings us back to Iran being the second most populous country in the ME AND to the fact that the US military is already stretched , this provides a very good encouragement that Iran retaliates.
*It worked ok in the '80s but not great: Iran suffered hundreds of thousands of dead in the Iran/Iraq war.

By comparison, the US has lost 4300 since the beginning of the war, more than 90% of those due to the occupation. If we were to fight Iran, we'd immolate the Iranian military and lose only a couple hundred soldiers. We'd only lose more if we chose to occupy.

The math for Israel isn't quite as good, but they aren't that far from our capabilities (and exceed our will). Iran isn't stupid and they know that to go to war against the US or Israel (either one alone) would be suicidal.
US does not want an all-out-war ME , its against its interests.
Agreed, that's why we kept Israel out of the last two wars.
Israel on the other hand cares about one thing only, maintaining strategic advantage of being the only state with WMD.
Well, that and protecting themselves. An Iran with a nuclear bomb would be a serious threat.
As a side note, Israel has no right to launch attacks against countries that did not wage a war against it. Anyone disagrees?
It is a sticky question. Again, the Osirak attack is the model: there was some condemnation but not much and nothing came of it. As people knew that Iraq was a real threat, it was treated much as a case of vigilante justice. An attack on Iran for the same reason would likely get the same response.

And just so we're clear, attacking a country that did not attack yours is not automatically an illegal act - you (and CI, for that matter) do understand that, right?
My comment about russ's continuous criticism of every statement that rejects *any* of Israel's actions...
In this forum, people, including me, have heavy biases. I don't start many threads, I mostly just respond to them. So my criticism of anti-Israel statements is simply me holding a mirror up to you. Beside, think about it logically: what point is there in responding to something I agree with?
 
  • #95
math_04 said:
... Iran would not attack Israel with nuclear weapons, it is not sucidal. It knows Israel would annihilate Iran with its own nukes. You should ...
You should tell it to Iran.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/14/10132.shtml
Rafsanjani Dec. 14 said:
Ruling Iranian cleric Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani declared Friday that the Muslim world could survive a nuclear exchange with Israel - while accomplishing the goal of obliterating the Jewish state.

"[The] application of an atomic bomb would not leave anything in Israel - but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world," Hashemi-Rafsanjani said, in quotes picked up by the Iran Press Service.

and

Ahmadinejad said:
"Today the reason for the Zionist regime's existence is questioned, and this regime is on its way to annihilation," he said.
Ahmadinejad added that Israel "has reached the end like a dead rat after being slapped by the Lebanese" - a reference to the 2006 war between Israel and the Shiite Hezbollah militia.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/981727.html
 
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  • #96
AhmedEzz said:
Because there is a huge tension between Egypt and Iran. The reason for that is Iran's new politics of trying to declare itself as a dominating power over the ME (besides Israel). Egypt has always been the main power in the ME. In pursue of this Iranian agenda, Iran supported sabotage acts carried by Hezbollah on Egypt. The terrorist cell was captured a few days ago. It clearly shows the intent of Iran towards us.

Interesting.

My Armenian-Russian friend stated today that this was all a political problem.

I of course, could not comprehend what he was talking about, as I do not understand politics.

Perhaps instead of shooting all the lawyers, we should shoot all the politicians. Then the engineers could run the world as it should be, logically.

:wink:
 
  • #97
Most of what Rafsanjani said is plain rhetoric just like Ahmadinejad's comments. The country has had plenty of opportunities to destablise the Middle East but it has restrained itself. The last thing Rafsanjani would want is to see all his wealth disappear in a mushroom cloud of destruction. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a schizophrenic lunatic but thankfully, he has very little power within Iran's power structure. Iran is led by the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei and there is another informal politburu which consists of powerful clerics and civilian advisors. It restrained the Shiite militia in Iraq and also when it figured out that the war in Lebanon was slowly growing out of control, ensured that Hezbollah agreed to a truce.

It acts like a rational power and a country that we can negotiate with unlike Al Qaeda or the growing Taliban insurgency in Pakistan and Afghanistan. They are not rational but mindless terrorists and hopefully, Obama will understand that. We need Iran's help to stablise Iraq and even Afghanistan.
 
  • #98
So you're saying that if Iran truly wants peaceful reactors and has nothing to hide, then they should accept and adhere to the NPT? And if they want weapons, they should pretend to adhere to the NPT but actually violate it. Since we know they don't adhere to the NPT, aren't you arguing against your own point? They are acting exactly as you say they would if they were really trying to produce nuclear weapons.

No, what I'm saying is that the present behavior of Iran is consistent with Iran developing their nuclear program for the purpose of using nuclear energy, not for nuclear weapons. Whether or nor Iran "adheres to the NPT as judged of the West" is irrelevant, as the West is not a neutral observer here, it is part of the dispute.


Instead of arguing whether or not Iran has violated any treaty, which is a subjective judgement, we should look at what Iran actually has done, and what they have not done. We can do the same for the West and then find out what the motivations of both sides are by assuming that both sides are making their moves in a rational way.


If you look at the moves the West has made, it is quite clear that these moves are not really motivated by the small details of whether or not Iran's actions are violations of safeguard agreements. E.g. not notifying the IAEA about Natanz, was not a violation of any safeguard agreement because only some months before a facility is going to come on line do you have to report it.


Iran did violate a safeguard agreement when they acquired uranium from China and failed to notify the IAEA.Iran says tat this violation was caused by the fact that Iran could not obtain that uranium via the normal routes, because the US imposes sanctions on any company that deals with Iran on nuclear matters (which is a violation of the NPT on the part of the US).


Now, the West is not motivated to act against Iran on the point where they violated the NOT at all. The West is motivated by the facility at Natanz, which is not a violation of the NPT. So, what the West wants is to prevent Iran from obtaining the technology to enrich uranium on an industrial scale because that technology can also be used to make nuclear weapons. Even if Iran were to agree to many intrusive inspections, the West doesn't trust Iran to possesses this technology, because, hypothetically Iran could leave the NPT, kick out the inspectors and then make nuclear weapons.


Nicholas Burns, when interviewed oin BBC's HardTalk a few years ago, has made exactly this argument: Iran can never be trusted with the technology to enrich uranium. Then, if you have this mindset, then not only are you not interested in a neutral assessment of Iran's alleged violations of the NPT, you actually don't want such an assessment at all, because it could lead to a ""not guilty verdict" which would be disastrous for you.


So, this all explains why the US wanted to get Iran referred to the UNSC asap. The longer it would take, the more evidence about Iran's behavior would surface and then the US would have lost control over the issue. By getting Iran referred on the basis of speculations (e.g. the infamous powerpoint presentation at the IAEA boards of governments meeting) the US could get resolutions passed against Iran. Later when the speculations were debunked, Iran was already convicted and that conviction cannot be revoked without the consent of the US.


So, the West succeeded in this attempt to get Iran referred. The motivation being that they don't trust Iran to enrich uranium. That in turn is motivated by the hostile nature of US/Iranian relations. It would be absurd to assume that violations of the small print in the NOT are the key here. They are no more than munition used by the West in its dispute with Iran.


What about Iran's behaviour, what could be the motivations behind that? I think this can be most clearly understood by considering two hypothetical case:

1) How would you act if you were an Iranian leader who wants to make nuclear weapons?

2) How would you act if you were an Iranian leader who wants to have access to nuclear power?

Let's start with 2) first. Iran has a long history of making deals with the West in which the West did not stick to its part of the deal. E.g., In the early 1990s there were negotiations with the Bush adminstration and Iranian officials to get hostages released from Lebanon. Iran agreed to exert pessure on Hezbollah to get the hostages released. The US had agreed to release frozen Iranian funds held in the US. After Iran had complied with its part of the deal, the US cited anti-terror laws to not go ahead with its poart of the deal.

Another example is how a deal in which Iran suspened enrichment for two years pending negotiations with the EU-3 ended. After the EU-3 made the their final proposals which to Iran were unacceptable, Iran stopped with the suspension of enrichment activities. During the negotiations, Iran always made clear that they would negotiate about more transparency, more inspections, but not about suspending enrichment and that the suspension they currently were observing was pending the negotiations, as agreed before the negotiations started.

But as soon as the Iran started to enrich uranium again, the West considered that to be a breach of that temporary deal. Sucjh a statement by te West which is contradicst any deal signed with Iran will have dne nothing to convince Iran that the West can be trusted to stick to any future deal.


There are many similar examples (like e.g. the US blocking Iran's access to nuclear fuel onder the NPT). The bottom line is then that if iran is going to spend billions to build nuclear powerplants it better make sure it will have access to fuel to power those plants. Any deal signed with the West on such a matter isn't worth the paper it is written on.

Therefore, it is wise move for Iran to first master the technology to enrich uranium on an industrial scale and then go ahead with building powerplants.


Then let's consider 1). If I were the Iranian leader who is intent on making nuclear weapons, I would not feel confortable having a nuclear program that is open to inspections. Leaving the NPT is not a good option either because then Iran would come under even greater scrutiny. I would like to make nuclear weapons in a secret location. The world should look should not look at Iran. Iran should disapeear from the headlines.

How do I minimize the number of inspections? If I insist on having the right to enrich uranium and I ultimately win then it is realistic to assume that any such deal would include me having to to agree to many intrusive inspections. Then withdrawing from the NPT at that stage is going to be even more alarming to the world.

Since under Hypothesis 1) I'm less honest about my intentions than under Hypothesis 2), I can easily do the following: I sign the incentives deal with the West and then I secretly violate it.Under the incentives deal I have to close down Natanz. Economic sanctions are lifted. Everyone is happy and the West looks the other way.

Since I still have the knowledge to produce centrifuges, I can do that in a secret location. Since no intrusive country wide inspections with short notice have been agreed under the deal with the West, the World will be none the wiser.

Then Russ did make some objections about the centrifuges you need. However, it has been confirmed that Iran has already produced the amount of uranium it needs for abomb, albeit enriched to low levels. To enrich it to higher levels Iran could simply use their existing centrifuges, although that will take while. The point is that if you only want to make a bomb there is no time limit unlike if you produce fuel for powerplants.
 
  • #99
Count Iblis said:
No, what I'm saying is that the present behavior of Iran is consistent with Iran developing their nuclear program for the purpose of using nuclear energy, not for nuclear weapons. Whether or nor Iran "adheres to the NPT as judged of the West" is irrelevant, as the West is not a neutral observer here, it is part of the dispute..

Again, there is the direct implication the the IAEA is a mere puppet of the US. Which is ridiculous.

The blatant use of the phrase "the west" is intended to create a sense of conspiracy.

The UN is composed of several entities that do not have vested interest in subverting their interests to those of the US.

Have Russia, China etc. formally gone before the UN and protested the IAEA's statements regarding Iran and it's failure to comply with it's obligations? After a brief perusal of google, I would say the answer is "no"

Therefore, Iran's failure to adhere to the NPT "as judged by the United Nations" IS relevant.

Count Iblis said:
If you look at the moves the West has made, it is quite clear that these moves are not really motivated by the small details of whether or not Iran's actions are violations of safeguard agreements. ...

It is not quite clear! That is a ridiculous assertion.

You conjecture about hypothesis number one makes the assumption that a perfect schemata would be implemented without error.

It is my contention that hypothesis #1 is correct, but has been poorly implemented by Iran. Iran is now in the process of trying to correct it's mistakes and achieve it's goal.
 
  • #100
You seem to be very critical when it comes to Iran violating the NPT, while you seem abit more careless when Israel does not even join the NPT, does not allow its nuclear facilities to be inspected and when Israel violates international law and commits war-crimes during its conflicts. This is because you are biased, and I don't blame you. I DO blame you , however, when you try to put yourself in place of the judge. As if Israel gets to trial countries for attempting to develop their nuclear capabilities (let those be peaceful or otherwise)...You are a victim of your own reasoning, for if this was the case, then ANY country that violates a treaty would be referred to the SC and sanctions would be imposed or even bombed, let alone CONSTANTLY violating it.
This is immoral for fine *civilized* gentle men as yourselves..but hey, who cares (as long as Israel does what it wants)
 
  • #101
The nuclear experts at the IAEA were not in favor of referring Iran to the UNSC at all. That decision was made during a governors meeting in which the foreign ministers of the member countries casted their vote. El Baradei was always against referral to the UNSC.

This whole mechanism of referral to the UNSC is meant to be used as a last resort when the IAEA signals a violation of the NPT that is extremely serious and constitutes a clear and present threat to international peace and security so that the SC has to intervene urgently.

Instead, wat happened was that Iran was referred for political reasons and that later you had a dispute with Dr. Rice and El Baradei about whether or not Iran could have any enrichment facilities. Dr. Rice said that the role of the IAEA is now to simply to check if Iran is complying with securuty council demands and that they must stop suggesting what the best way forward is.

That comment by Dr. Rice proves my point. The US wanted to take the nuclear dosier on Iran out of the hands of the experts and take charge of it themselves. Dr. Rice, Dick Cheney and Bush not El Baradei should tell Iran what to do.

A far as Russia and China are concerned, they look at what is best for them. They recognize that the US has interests in the Mid East and upsetting the US will strain relations.
 
  • #102
AhmedEzz is 100% correct. Iran's technical violations of the NPOT safeguard rules are quite similar to those of Brazil. Brazil refused to give the IAEA data on their enrichment activities. This lead to negotiations and a compromize was worked out in which Brazil would not have to give all the details originally requested by the IAEA on the grounds that this data is an industrial secret.
 
  • #103
Count Iblis said:
AhmedEzz is 100% correct. Iran's technical violations of the NPOT safeguard rules are quite similar to those of Brazil. Brazil refused to give the IAEA data on their enrichment activities. This lead to negotiations and a compromize was worked out in which Brazil would not have to give all the details originally requested by the IAEA on the grounds that this data is an industrial secret.

I guess Israel had no problems with Brazil, else it would have been BOMBED.
 
  • #104
The INTENT of Iran is clear...they want to destroy Israel. If Israel attacks...it's because of the stated intent.
 
  • #105
Count Iblis said:
The nuclear experts at the IAEA were not in favor of referring Iran to the UNSC at all. ...

This seems to be a matter of opinion. Was there a formal record of their opinion, or are you merely stating what you heard firsthand?

Count Iblis said:
A far as Russia and China are concerned, they look at what is best for them. They recognize that the US has interests in the Mid East and upsetting the US will strain relations.

Yes, because as we have seen from other issues, China and Russia are *oh so worried* about upsetting the US.

That was sarcasm.
 
  • #106
WhoWee said:
The INTENT of Iran is clear...they want to destroy Israel. If Israel attacks...it's because of the stated intent.

Iran does not want to destroy Israel at al. Iran wants the Palestininans to rule all of Palestine plus Israel. If Iran were to "destroy Israel" in the literal sense, that would destroy most of Palestine as well. So, the Palestinians would have even less compared to what they have now.


Iran, like many Arab states have never recognized Israel. So, they talk about the "Zionist entity" as an illegal entity that is occupying the land that belongs to the Palestinians.


Now, these views the Iranians have about Israel are in total contradiction with how we view Israel. But these Iranian points of view on Israel are not inherently "genocidal" in nature. They don't advocate gassing all the Jews or anything of the sort. Note that there are many Jews living in Iran.

When Western news agencies translate an Iranian text to English which then becomes "Wipe Israel off the map", then this whole context is missing. Also, the translation is not 100% accurate in the first place as the word "Israel" is never mentioned. Instead Iranians will tent to use the word "Zionist entity". Translating a comment in this more accurate way would be far less alarming. The difference between the two translations is similar to the difference between these two statements:


1) We need to remove the Saddam regime from power.

2) We need to wipe Iraq off the map.


Another thing is that Iran has many times clarified what they mean with their "wiping Israel off the map" statements. They say that Israel will cease to exist all by itself. Then, for Israel or the US to deliberately make propaganda about this shows that they don't really care about the truth. They want to paint a picture of an Iran that is about to attack Israel in order to justify an attack on Iran.

If anyone is in doubt, then just imagine Bush and Cheney in the White house and Cheney informing Bush about Ahmadinejad saying "Wipe Israel off the map". Then which of the two things was more likely to have happened next:

1) Bush becoming very worried.

2) Bush cheering up, replying to Cheney: "Great news, just what we need. Let's open the champagne bottle!"
 
  • #107
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i5vgqHnYljuvveDyQGJpV3ZbaRkw"
 
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  • #108
seycyrus said:
This seems to be a matter of opinion. Was there a formal record of their opinion, or are you merely stating what you heard firsthand?



Yes, because as we have seen from other issues, China and Russia are *oh so worried* about upsetting the US.

That was sarcasm.



El Baradei has stated his opinion many times.

Russia and China want the West not to interfere in what they regard as their sphere of influence, so what hey do is they allow the US to conduct its foreign policy interests in areas that even remotely affect Israel.

The US does not propose SC resolutions condemning Tibet or does not push fr independence of Taiwan, and the US e.g. tolerates China dealing with Sudan. The US won't table a SC resolution calling for an oil embargo against Sudan.

When the US broke this unofficial agreement by condemning Russia very strongly when Russia attacked Georgia in response to Georgian aggression in South-Ossetia, this deal was severly weakened.

Russia is now reconsidering agreements made with the US on Iran. E.g., it is reconsidering their agreement with the US not to sell the S-300 SAM system to Iran.
 
  • #109
Count Iblis said:
El Baradei has stated his opinion many times.

It was not El Baradeis opinion that you were referring to. You spoke of the Nuclear experts at the IAEA and what they were in favor of...

Have htey made public statements regarding this that are a matter of record?

Count Iblis said:
Russia and China want the West not to interfere in what they regard as their sphere of influence, so what hey do is they allow the US to conduct its foreign policy interests in areas that even remotely affect Israel.

Either that, or they agree with the US! Why do you feel that you can so blatantly throw down your opinions?

Count Iblis said:
When the US broke this unofficial agreement by condemning Russia very strongly when Russia attacked Georgia in response to Georgian aggression in South-Ossetia, this deal was severly weakened.

Yet despite all that, they agree with the US in regards to Iran and IAEA!

Count Iblis said:
Russia is now reconsidering agreements made with the US on Iran. E.g., it is reconsidering their agreement with the US not to sell the S-300 SAM system to Iran.

Uh yeah. They are trying to make money. Are they going to make an official statement rejecting the IAEA's view on Iran?

Get back to us when they do.
 
  • #110
Count Iblis said:
When Western news agencies translate an Iranian text to English which then becomes "Wipe Israel off the map", then this whole context is missing. Also, the translation is not 100% accurate in the first place as the word "Israel" is never mentioned."

Nice SPIN! Israel is never mentioned by name because that might look like they are give Israel legitimacy!

Count Iblis said:
Instead Iranians will tent to use the word "Zionist entity". Translating a comment in this more accurate way would be far less alarming."

It is only less alarming to those who don't understand that Israel as we know it today would not exist without the "Zionist entity". Yes, it is a deliberate decepion of intent.


Count Iblis said:
The difference between the two translations is similar to the difference between these two statements:

1) We need to remove the Saddam regime from power.

2) We need to wipe Iraq off the map."

Ha, you think that back in 2000, the Iraqi's would have been happy with #1? I think not.

But enough of this deception. Everyone knows that we are not talking about a complete and utter removal of the Irqui countryside.

Count Iblis said:
Another thing is that Iran has many times clarified what they mean with their "wiping Israel off the map" statements. They say that Israel will cease to exist all by itself. "

Yeah right. That's what they mean. Israel will just fade away into the sunset...

Count Iblis said:
If anyone is in doubt, then just imagine Bush and Cheney in the White house and Cheney ..."

Are you *&%%$ serious? You are offering up your little imagined scenario as some sort of proof of your statement?

Talk about a logical fallacy!

Attempting to use an emotional trigger (response to Bush and Cheny) as a validation of your point of view!
 
  • #111
Count Iblis said:
When Western news agencies translate an Iranian text to English which then becomes "Wipe Israel off the map", then this whole context is missing. Also, the translation is not 100% accurate in the first place ...

This is true, the word "wipe off the map" is not even present in the original speech of Nejad. Check it out for yourself.


http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/print.asp?ID=5866
...So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh", is not contained anywhere in his original farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's President threatened to "wipe Israel off the map", despite never having uttered the words "map", "wipe out" or even "Israel".

[URL="The "Wipe Israel Off The Map" Hoax"][URL]http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/260107offthemap.htm

Professor Juan Cole concurs, arguing, "Now, some might say, "So he didn't say, 'wipe off the map,' he said 'erase from the page.' What's the difference? Anyway he's saying he wants to get rid of Israel. Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope -- that the occupation of Jerusalem was no more a continued inevitability than had been the hegemony of the Shah's government. Whatever this quotation from a decades-old speech of Khomeini may have meant, Ahmadinejad did not say that 'Israel must be wiped off the map'...

http://www.daily.pk/world/worldnews/7283-iran-president-ahmadinejad-did-not-say-wipe-israel-off-the-map.html
About two years ago, TV news magazine 60 Minutes aired an exclusive interview with Iran’s President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Watched by tens of millions of Americans, the program seemingly showed Ahmadinejad as being evasive and essentially agreeing with Jewish extremist, Mike Wallace’s portrayal of him as threatening to “wipe Israel off the map.” In fact, Ahmadinejad has never called for “wiping Israel off the map,”, not in that interview nor at any time. The proper translation of Ahmadinejad’s comments in his native language Farsi was that he believed that the Zionist Regime in Israel would pass away with time much in the same fashion that the Soviet regime fell in Russia.

I was in Tehran and only a few feet from Ahmadinejad during one of the times he was quoted as saying that he threatened to “wipe Israel off the map.” In fact, he said that he believed simply that the Zionist regime would be overthrown and then gave the example of the overthrow of the Communist regime in Russia. He also said that if he Zionist regime fell, there must be respect for the civil rights of everyone, including Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Of course that is a far cry from the image of a nuclear holocaust presented by the heavily Zionist-influenced media around the world, of Israel “being wiped off the map.”
 
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  • #112
AhmedEzz said:
This is true, the word "wipe off the map" is not even present in the original speech of Nejad. Check it out for yourself.

This is pure deception. A parsing of what actual words were used in order to distract from the intended meaning of the words.

Iran's feelings towards the state of Israel are apparent when one consides it's habitual funding of terrorsit organizations that target innocent Israeli citizens.

None of this "it depends on what your definition of the words is, is". Ridiculous.
 
  • #113
I think you chose not to read the text I provided, and instead just came up with the regular phrase the media dictates...:rolleyes:
 
  • #114
pf_nuke_states.jpg

pf_nuke_states_legend.jpg

Looking at the map of nuclear powers in the region, knowing of the uneasy alliance of Persia with the Arab states against Israel, the marriage of convenience of Persia with Russia and China, the animosity of the west towards their revolutionary theocratic dictatorial state, I would imagine that they feel a bit in the center of a potential kickboxing match with their legs bound.

Saudi Arabia to their southwest may as well be a blue country, given their alliance to America.
How many military bases do we have there? How many fleets do we have cruising around in the various gulfs?

Ha! If you look at the map, Israel is the size of fly poo. Amazing how pissy so many countries can get about something so insignificant.
 
  • #115


AhmedEzz said:
I think you chose not to read the text I provided, and instead just came up with the regular phrase the media dictates...:rolleyes:


(and why are you again not providing a link?)

what do you say the literal meaning of Ahmadinejad's words is? :rolleyes:
 
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  • #116
The reason Israel's nukes comes up in these discussions is because of the double standards used by the West. You have a rhetoric that says: "The Arabs want to push the Jews in the Sea". "Iran wants to produce nukes". "Iran will give those nukes to terrorists". etc. etc.
But none of this is based on actual facts. Nevertheless, we have ended up punishing Iran based on such baseless allegations.

On the other hand you have Israel that is illegaly occupying Palestinian lands and that has nuclear weapons. Of course, Israel won't actually use their nuclear weapons. However, if Iran were to actually develop nukes then most analysts will also say that Iran won't actually use their nukes either.

But they will say that Iran's strategic position would become much stronger as it would take away the option for Israel or the US to start a big war (aimed at regime change) against Iran. So, Iran could do something and then the world could not act. But then this is what Israel has already done. They have occupied the West Bank and it is not possible to attack Israel to take the territory back from Israel as Israel has nuclear weapons. This situation is not unacceptable to the West.

So, this is a huge double standard and that makes the position of the West that Iran isn't even allowed to enrich uranium under IAEA supervision untenable.
 
  • #117
Count Iblis said:
... Nevertheless, we have ended up punishing Iran based on such baseless allegations.
Misinformation, again. The UN SC sanctions (imposed w/ a 14-0 vote) are based on IAEA findings, not baseless allegations.

Resolution 1737 (2006)
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/iran/2006/resolution1737.pdf
...
Reaffirming its commitment to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear
Weapons, and recalling the right of States Party, in conformity with Articles I and II
of that Treaty, to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for
peaceful purposes without discrimination,

Reiterating its serious concern over the many reports of the IAEA Director
General and resolutions of the IAEA Board of Governors related to Iran’s nuclear
programme, reported to it by the IAEA Director General, including IAEA Board
resolution GOV/2006/14,

Reiterating its serious concern that the IAEA Director General’s report of
27 February 2006 (GOV/2006/15) lists a number of outstanding issues and concerns
on Iran’s nuclear programme, including topics which could have a military nuclear
dimension, and that the IAEA is unable to conclude that there are no undeclared
nuclear materials or activities in Iran,

Reiterating its serious concern over the IAEA Director General’s report of
28 April 2006 (GOV/2006/27) and its findings, including that, after more than three
years of Agency efforts to seek clarity about all aspects of Iran’s nuclear
programme, the existing gaps in knowledge continue to be a matter of concern, and
that the IAEA is unable to make progress in its efforts to provide assurances about
the absence of undeclared nuclear material and activities in Iran,

Noting with serious concern that, as confirmed by the IAEA Director General’s
reports of 8 June 2006 (GOV/2006/38), 31 August 2006 (GOV/2006/53) and
14 November 2006 (GOV/2006/64), Iran has not established full and sustained
suspension of all enrichment-related and reprocessing activities as set out in
resolution 1696 (2006), nor resumed its cooperation with the IAEA under the
Additional Protocol, nor taken the other steps required of it by the IAEA Board of
Governors, nor complied with the provisions of Security Council resolution
1696 (2006) and which are essential to build confidence, and deploring Iran’s
refusal to take these steps, ...
 
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  • #118
The UN ambassadors at the UNSC can hardly be called experts on nuclear matters.

Neither the suspension of enrichment nor adherence to the "additional protocol" constitute breaches of the NPT. What has happened is that the UNSC demanded this and then asked the IAEA to verfity if Iran is complying with these extra demands. Then the IAEA reported that Iran is in breach with these additional demands, which then led to a new UNSC resolution condemning Iran because they were not sticking to the previous UNSC resolution.

This is the well known "dossier building tactic". I.e. when the evidence isn't there, you can always argue on the basis of the size of the dossier and expand the dossier by passing newe resolutions because the contry refuses to stick to the previous resolution. No discussions on the actual basis of the resolutions take place.

Even today, if you raise the fact that Saddam had no WMD, then the pro-Iraq war people will say that Saddam was in beach of many SC resolutions. But then these resolutions were mostly saying that Saddam was either in breach of some previous resolution or was refusing to cooporate with inspections.

Now, that "resufal to cooporate" was established on the basis that Saddam failed to point out where all the missing anthrax was and it was later proven that these stockpiles of missing anthrax didn't exist in the first place (as Saddam had been claiming all along).
 
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  • #119
Count Iblis said:
...Neither the suspension of enrichment nor adherence to the "additional protocol" constitute breaches of the NPT.
Misinformation. Yes it is a breach, per article III:
1. Each non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes to accept safeguards, as set forth in an agreement to be negotiated and concluded with the International Atomic Energy Agency in accordance with the Statute of the International Atomic Energy Agency and the Agencys safeguards system, for the exclusive purpose of verification of the fulfillment of its obligations assumed under this Treaty with a view to preventing diversion of nuclear energy from peaceful uses to nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices. Procedures for the safeguards required by this article shall be followed with respect to source or special fissionable material whether it is being produced, processed or used in any principal nuclear facility or is outside any such facility. The safeguards required by this article shall be applied to all source or special fissionable material in all peaceful nuclear activities within the territory of such State, under its jurisdiction, or carried out under its control anywhere.
 
  • #120
mheslep said:
Misinformation. Yes it is a breach, per article III:

The additional protocol is not part of any NPT rules. Also, read article X of the NPT. Iran could simply leave the NPT after giving a three months notice. Since Iran's enrichment program does not depend on anything they got by virtue of being part of the NPT, they could simply continue to enrich uranium and that would be 100% legal.

So, banning Iran from enriching uranium because of alleged breaches of the NPT doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
 

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