Both positive and negative curvature?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the behavior of the Riemann tensor at the event horizon of a black hole, specifically addressing whether its components become zero or infinite. Participants also explore the implications for parallel transport of vectors on the event horizon compared to surfaces outside the horizon, within the context of general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that all curvature components are finite, suggesting they are proportional to tidal forces and independent of radial infall velocity, while noting that tangential velocity affects them.
  • Others argue that the components of the Riemann tensor depend on the coordinate system, with standard Schwarzschild coordinates showing many zero components and some infinite components as one approaches the horizon.
  • In contrast, Kruskal-Szekeres coordinates are mentioned as having zero components but no infinite components near the horizon.
  • Participants highlight that all curvature invariants remain finite at the horizon, with larger black holes exhibiting smaller curvature invariants compared to Earth’s surface.
  • Some participants clarify that the infinities observed in certain coordinates do not indicate a physical curvature singularity but rather a coordinate singularity, emphasizing that physical measurements do not diverge at the horizon.
  • There is acknowledgment that different coordinate choices can yield finite components of the Riemann tensor, and that observable quantities like the Kretschmann scalar remain finite at the horizon.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the behavior of the Riemann tensor components in different coordinate systems, with some asserting that certain components become infinite while others maintain they are finite. The discussion remains unresolved as multiple competing views are presented.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on coordinate systems for the interpretation of the Riemann tensor components and the distinction between coordinate and physical singularities. The discussion does not resolve the implications of these differences.

anorlunda
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What happens to the Reimann tensor at the event horizon of a black hole? Do some of the 24 components become zero or infinite?

What happens to parallel transport of a vector on the surface of an event horizon that is different than on a surface outside the event horizon?

I'm newly educated on general relativity and hopeful that these new tools may enable me to see things differently.
 
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anorlunda said:
What happens to the Reimann tensor at the event horizon of a black hole? Do some of the 24 components become zero or infinite?

What happens to parallel transport of a vector on the surface of an event horizon that is different than on a surface outside the event horizon?

I'm newly educated on general relativity and hopeful that these new tools may enable me to see things differently.

All of the curvature components are finite. For the most part they'll be m/r^3 in geometric units, i.e. they'll be equal to the tidal forces. They'll be independent of the radial infal velocity, too. (Tangential velocity will change them).
 
anorlunda said:
What happens to the Reimann tensor at the event horizon of a black hole? Do some of the 24 components become zero or infinite?
The components of a tensor depend on the coordinate system used to express them. So the answer to this question depends on which coordinate system you are using.

In standard Schwarzschild coordinates there are many zero components throughout the spacetime and there are some infinite components in the limit as you approach the horizon.

In Kruskal Szekeres coordinates there are also many zero components throughout the spacetime but there are no infinite components in the limit as you approach the horizon.

All curvature invariants are finite at the horizon. Furthermore, the larger the black hole the smaller the curvature invariants at the horizon. For a supermassive black hole there could be less tidal gravity than at the surface of the earth.

anorlunda said:
What happens to parallel transport of a vector on the surface of an event horizon that is different than on a surface outside the event horizon?
Nothing. The event horizon is merely an outgoing null surface, so you cannot have any outgoing timelike paths which cross it.
 
DaleSpam said:
Not in standard Schwarzschild coordinates. See L.22 here (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9783527622061.app12/pdf) for a list of all of the non-zero components. For example:
{R^{\theta}}_{r \theta r}={R^{\phi}}_{r \phi r}=\frac{M}{(2M-r)r^2}
goes to -∞ as r goes to 2 M.

But let's make sure nobody is led to believe that this should be interpreted as a curvature singularity at r=2M. This is a coordinate singularity. No physical measurement gives a result that diverges to infinity as r approaches 2M. If we chose different coordinates, we could make all of R's components finite. Even in these coordinates, actual observable quantities like the Kretschmann scalar R_{abcd}^{abcd} are finite at r=2M, because the infinities "mysteriously" cancel.
 
bcrowell said:
But let's make sure nobody is led to believe that this should be interpreted as a curvature singularity at r=2M. This is a coordinate singularity. No physical measurement gives a result that diverges to infinity as r approaches 2M. If we chose different coordinates, we could make all of R's components finite. Even in these coordinates, actual observable quantities like the Kretschmann scalar R_{abcd}^{abcd} are finite at r=2M, because the infinities "mysteriously" cancel.
Agreed. I specifically mentioned in post 3 that all curvature invariants are finite at the horizon, but I certainly could have been more emphatic about it.
 
DaleSpam said:
Agreed. I specifically mentioned in post 3 that all curvature invariants are finite at the horizon, but I certainly could have been more emphatic about it.

Oops, I'd missed your #3 :-)
 
My bad - I shold have calculated them rather than going frommemory.
 

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