Bringing iron asteroids down to Earth?

[Max™]

Mine the asteriod in situ and send the iron to L5. Build the infrastructure for a community there and send as many people as you have resources to support. Eventually we'll all get out of this gravity well up where we belong.

Edit: this is another idea I'm fond of. Hollow some asteroids out into habitats while you're up there too!


It's not that I'm exclusively for the loop, I'm just completely against elevators, they're currently impossible. The material stresses are significant enough that even if we had a material that could support itself to that height, which we don't yet, we still need to protect the portion at the base from atmospheric stresses, and the top from micrometeors/major meteorite impacts. Plus the stresses of carrying loads.

There is an arguably far better way to do the same thing, which could be built today, and would make an interesting variation from the normal unobtanium space elevator plot device.

I always liked my sci fi to be at least plausible, a space elevator is not plausible.

Contrary to what you might read on some sites: http://spaceelevatorconference.org/default.aspx

As for the size, there is a graphic in the PDF showing multiple sites located in the pacific and atlantic ocean near the equator, selected based on past weather patterns/projections of future storminess. 2000 km stretched across the pacific isn't as big as you might think.

You would build it at the surface of the ocean, then after getting it completed you'd begin to circulate the rotor through the sheath, which would raise it to the necessary height in a controlled manner, allowing you to set up cross braces and so forth.

I admit it is something of a pet project, as I remember daydreaming about the things I would do if I could build and own a space elevator, before reality brought that idea literally crashing down.

I learned about the loop concept a year or two ago, though I had seen the space fountain idea years earlier, but I didn't discover just how possible it would be to actually do something like this until I was rambling about how silly it is to be excited over the "recently discovered mineral wealth in Afghanistan" news story last year, and pointing out just how vast the resources available in a single average sized asteroid wouild be.

"Yeah, but how are you going to go get those resources?"

*looks around, sees the lofstrom paper*

'Eureka!'

 

[DaveC426913]

I always liked my sci fi to be at least plausible, a space elevator is not plausible.

Do you know what 'plausible' means?


Not only is it plausible, it's quite possible, just not yet. Our technology is currently showing that the trend will get us there.

To suggest it's not possible let alone that it's not plausible is like suggesting that Rusty should not have PetaFlop computers in his story. Since they haven't been built yet, they never will be. And that means they're not even plausible. Nonsense.

 

[Max™]

Reasonable, or probable.


http://spaceelevatorconference.org/Documents/RT%20Space%20Elevator%20Space%20Debris%2022June%2010.pdf

Compare the difficulties inherent there, the issues of a continuous 100,000 km long megastructure that has to be built from the top down, beyond just developing the materials strong enough to build it, getting the material into orbit, assembling it, and also protecting it from impacts, etc.

Vs

A 2000 km multi-part megastructure which can be built on the surface, lifts itself to altitude, and requires no amazing advances in material sciences, or amazing amounts of incredibly rare materials.

Heck, a pre-existing loop would actually solve part of the difficulty with building an elevator, as you could use it to get the elevator materials up to GEO.

 

[DaveC426913]

Reasonable, or probable.

Well, reasonable is subjective. And probable is only available to you since you can see the future and we can't.

and requires no amazing advances in material sciences, or amazing amounts of incredibly rare materials.

This is one point, not two. It's a materials science challenge, granted, but the materials aren't exactly "rare".

a continuous 100,000 km long megastructure

The space elevator does not have to be 100,000km long; it need only be 35,000km long.

The space elevator is one order of magnitude larger than the launch loop. You overestimate it by almost another order of magnitude.


The space elevator has one thing that the launch loop does not: a strong grassroots movement - a lot of interested people in useful positions who not only think it can be built, but are highly motivated to get their own hands dirty.

The space elevator may end up getting built despite being "impossible"...

 

[JaredJames]

Where did a 100,000km structure come from?

I was under the impression space elevators only had to be just above 36,000km.

EDIT: (Seriously Dave, this just ain't fair! )

 

[DaveC426913]

Where did a 100,000km structure come from?

I was under the impression space elevators only had to be just above 36,000km.

EDIT: (Seriously Dave, this just ain't fair! )

There is a version of the SE that uses a tail extending outward from the GEO point another 65,000 km as the counterbalance.

The PDF Max mentions probably mentions it.

But it is not essential.

 

[BobG]

Where did a 100,000km structure come from?

I was under the impression space elevators only had to be just above 36,000km.

EDIT: (Seriously Dave, this just ain't fair! )

There is a version of the SE that uses a tail extending outward from the GEO point another 65,000 km as the counterbalance.

The PDF Max mentions probably mentions it.

But it is not essential.

The center of mass of the space elevator needs to be about 36,000 km above the Earth's surface. In essence, the space elevator is orbiting the Earth in a geostationary orbit.

If parts of the elevator are hanging down, all the way to the Earth, something has to be on the other side of the center of mass to balance it. The two solutions for balancing it include a) launching a lot of mass which you position close to the center of mass, or b) launching a little mass, but position it much further out, or c) some combination of both.

 

[Max™]

I just went with the number they listed of 100,000 km.

Didn't mean to derail it into a "let's debate the merits of space elevators", but... this IS physics forums, where the geekier the subject, the more likely it will wind up with a really geeky derail.


http://www.spaceelevatorblog.com/

Incidentally, that grassroots movement isn't having a lot of luck.

I can't help but think they'd already have a lofstrom loop built if the same time and effort had been applied towards it.

 

[rrw4rusty]

Hi!

What a cool discussion! I've read so much I've forgotten if anyone answered my question (How much will a house size iron asteroid burn up coming down from... let's say the ideal orbit and orbital speed?). I'll look back through.

I lied, the planet is not Earth--I thought it would simplify to say it was. The planet is close enough to Earth like as not to matter. They are short on iron and other ores and they want it to build a giant "100 mile high" rail gun to launch things into orbit (I'm suddenly wondering if "100 mile high" is ridiculous (thoughts).

I have a way to prevent burn up if this is a problem but did not consider the problem of the asteroid chunks coming down where we want them to. I know about space elevators and now this other launch loop thing but the plot needs the asteroids being broken up by a half dozen or so shaped charges planted within the asteroid. These breakup the asteroid into house (or whatever) size pieces and also nudges the asteroid pieces downward and out of orbit. Note that neither the rail-gun nor the asteroid harvesting process get very far because aliens arrive (what else?) and solve their problems with higher technology.

Thank you for all the help and interest!
Rusty

 

[Evo]

I have a way to prevent burn up if this is a problem but did not consider the problem of the asteroid chunks coming down where we want them to. I know about space elevators and now this other launch loop thing but the plot needs the asteroids being broken up by a half dozen or so shaped charges planted within the asteroid. These breakup the asteroid into house (or whatever) size pieces and also nudges the asteroid pieces downward and out of orbit. Note that neither the rail-gun nor the asteroid harvesting process get very far because aliens arrive (what else?) and solve their problems with higher technology.

Thank you for all the help and interest!
Rusty

How did you get the asteroids into orbit around this planet?

 

[JaredJames]

How did you get the asteroids into orbit around this planet?

A "100 mile high rail gun" and aliens visiting, and your concerns are getting the asteroids into orbit?

 

[Evo]

A "100 mile high rail gun" and aliens visiting, and your concerns are getting the asteroids into orbit?

I'm just a practical person.

 

[rrw4rusty]

Okay, I guess the bottom line is the story revolves around a process I've already written. It was not very bright of me to write the book (its completed) and then worry about how possible the asteroid harvesting project was but in truth I was all over this forum and others worried about the more fantastic elements of my story. Remember this is not Earth but very simular.


The asteroids are nudged from the Trojan points of two of their gas giants and they have about 100,000 iron asteroids from 2 to seven miles spiraling in towards their planet. Is 100,000 way too many? Is spiraling in towards planet way to dangerous? How about the asteroid sizes? All these details can easily be changed but not the basic way they are brought down.

As the asteriods approach Homeworld (the planet) the composition and shape and size of the asteroid is analyzed and six to twelve 'shaped charge units' are placed on it. These 'units' can drill down 100 feet, laser out shaped pocket and plant the explosive in it. These break the asteroid up into the proper size chunks and also nudge these downward so they fall out of orbit. A desert about the size of the Sahara has three landing areas and the asteroid chunks land in one of these (how? I thought directing them would be enough).

Planting the ‘shaped charge units’ on the asteroid and using these is needed for the plot.

Of the things I can do given the technological level of the planet Homeworld (100 to 200 years ahead of us) and constraints imposed by the story plot is:
• A ‘cloud’ of some material could be in orbit below the asteroid and this could coat the house size chunks with something to help with burn up.
• We can dictate the direction and speed of the asteroid before the charges go off.
• The ‘Shaped Charge Array Units’ could liquefy the asteroid though to what end I’m not yet sure.
• I know of no way that we could shape liquefied pieces of asteroid
• We could partially melt the chunks to make them smooth.
• The ‘Shaped Charges’ could give the asteroid chunks some very basic shapes by breaking up the asteroid in certain ways… basic shapes like flat and wide, or rod like (long and skinny).

Thanks for all your help!
Rusty

 

[rrw4rusty]

Saying the rail gun was to be 100 miles high is something I missed... this I believe is far too high. How does 250 miles long and 50 miles high sound? This is never built but I do want a reasonable size.

Edit: That's still way to high huh?

Edit: Can't believe I turned so stupid on this one... 70 miles long and 5 miles high sound like good numbers to me.

 

[DaveC426913]

Saying the rail gun was to be 100 miles high is something I missed... this I believe is far too high. How does 250 miles long and 50 miles high sound? This is never built but I do want a reasonable size.

Edit: That's still way to high huh?

Edit: Can't believe I turned so stupid on this one... 70 miles long and 5 miles high sound like good numbers to me.

I may be wrong but I do believe the loop launcher has undergone some research. Ask Max.

If it has, I'd go with their numbers.

 

[BobG]

The asteroids are nudged from the Trojan points of two of their gas giants and they have about 100,000 iron asteroids from 2 to seven miles spiraling in towards their planet. Is 100,000 way too many? Is spiraling in towards planet way to dangerous? How about the asteroid sizes? All these details can easily be changed but not the basic way they are brought down.

• The ‘Shaped Charges’ could give the asteroid chunks some very basic shapes by breaking up the asteroid in certain ways… basic shapes like flat and wide, or rod like (long and skinny).

Thanks for all your help!
Rusty

Why would the asteroids spiral in? In fact, why would the asteroids be orbiting your planet? It's somewhat possible, but I think that would suggest your planet was humongous, since the only planets I know that have rings and other debris are gas giants.

The asteroids in our solar system mostly orbit the Sun, even if the planets have severely disrupted their orbits in some cases.

Even if they've been maneuvered as to be captured by the Earth's gravity, they won't necessarily spiral in. Violating conservation of energy would be a pretty basic flaw. It takes some outside force to slow an object in orbit to make it spiral in. Usually that force is atmospheric drag since, as thin as it may be at the upper reaches, the atmosphere reaches out past 1000 km. Most charts for atmospheric density stop at 1500 km, since by then your atmosphere is so thin that it's not even worth calculating atmospheric drag any more (in fact, for something as dense as an asteroid, calculating atmospheric drag above 1000 km would be serious overkill).

Your planet could have a thicker atmosphere or a thinner atmosphere, so you can pretty much do what you want with it, but there should be a reason for the asteroids to spiral in if they're going to spiral in.

Flat and wide is a good shape. It spreads the heat. Long and skinny with an aerodynamic point concentrates so much heat on the point that it melts or burns up. Look at the design of space capsules and the shuttle. The flat, blunt end of the capsule enters the atmosphere first. Spheres also do a good job of surviving reentry.

When the charges break up the asteroid, each piece will be traveling a slightly different direction. You have to correct the direction after the break up since the angle the asteroid enters will be critical. For spacecraft reentries, come in at too steep an angle and the spacecraft burns up - come in too shallow and the spacecraft skips off the atmosphere and delays reentry for weeks to months. This was a huge challenge in the early days of the space age. In fact, this would have been a huge challenge for the early days of ICBMs had we had a nuclear war, since their ballistic trajectory is so high that reentry is an issue for them, as well.

 

[rrw4rusty]

Why would the asteroids spiral in? In fact, why would the asteroids be orbiting your planet? It's somewhat possible, but I think that would suggest your planet was humongous, since the only planets I know that have rings and other debris are gas giants.

The asteroids in our solar system mostly orbit the Sun, even if the planets have severely disrupted their orbits in some cases.

Even if they've been maneuvered as to be captured by the Earth's gravity, they won't necessarily spiral in. Violating conservation of energy would be a pretty basic flaw. It takes some outside force to slow an object in orbit to make it spiral in. Usually that force is atmospheric drag since, as thin as it may be at the upper reaches, the atmosphere reaches out past 1000 km. Most charts for atmospheric density stop at 1500 km, since by then your atmosphere is so thin that it's not even worth calculating atmospheric drag any more (in fact, for something as dense as an asteroid, calculating atmospheric drag above 1000 km would be serious overkill).

Your planet could have a thicker atmosphere or a thinner atmosphere, so you can pretty much do what you want with it, but there should be a reason for the asteroids to spiral in if they're going to spiral in.

Flat and wide is a good shape. It spreads the heat. Long and skinny with an aerodynamic point concentrates so much heat on the point that it melts or burns up. Look at the design of space capsules and the shuttle. The flat, blunt end of the capsule enters the atmosphere first. Spheres also do a good job of surviving reentry.

When the charges break up the asteroid, each piece will be traveling a slightly different direction. You have to correct the direction after the break up since the angle the asteroid enters will critical. For spacecraft reentries, come in at too steep an angle and the spacecraft burns up - come in too shallow and the spacecraft skips off the atmosphere and delays reentry for weeks to months (this was a huge challenge in the early days of the space age).

Thanks for all of that! I envisioned a 10 year project to gather all the iron asteroids they could find --the figure I have now (in the first chapters of the book written 8 years ago) is 100,000 asteroids which now seems ridiculously high-- and place them so that they orbited into position to be sent down. Others, not yet in 'entry' orbit are in higher orbits and I put that they spiraled in. Perhaps not a good term and the last thing I want to do is deal with every detail. Easy to change that and just not go into how they get in position.

The asteroids are analyzed and per this computer analysis 'Shaped Charge Array Units' are placed on the asteroid as needed and perform precision explosions to break the asteroid up into 'proper' sized pieces which are mostly wide and flat. The explosions also melt the outsides of the pieces thus smoothing them and finally the explosions send each and every piece down at the same speed and angle. These things I leave to expertise of the future so to speak, it can be done.

As far as the above 'not' being enough to insure that everything lands within the landing area (size unspecified), I'm simply not sure what to do but I'll think of something. I guess I'm OK on burn up and getting enough of it down to make it worth while.

If I can get all the pieces into the landing area the next potential problem is what will happen when all this hits the ground over and over and over. There may be no problem with just hitting the sand dunes. Perhaps a large area is dug out down to bedrock then covered with mud and sea water to some depth would help. I have no answer for this yet.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Rusty

 

[Office_Shredder]

If I can get all the pieces into the landing area the next potential problem is what will happen when all this hits the ground over and over and over. There may be no problem with just hitting the sand dunes. Perhaps a large area is dug out down to bedrock then covered with mud and sea water to some depth would help. I have no answer for this yet.

This is a good point... if it hits a desert, might it just bury itself really far under the sand?

Another point to consider... even if one of these asteroids doesn't kick up enough crap upon impact to block sunlight and kill all life on the planet, if you're dropping one a week it must start to add up

 

[Max™]

A 70 mile long/5 mile high rail gun would still leave the projectile within fairly thick atmosphere after launch, at the least it would be pretty dramatic watching it heat up as it flew into space.

 

[rrw4rusty]

A 70 mile long/5 mile high rail gun would still leave the projectile within fairly thick atmosphere after launch, at the least it would be pretty dramatic watching it heat up as it flew into space.

Hm... good point. How about 7 miles high? That's about 1.5 miles higher the Mt. Everest.

 

[Max™]

You could fire a laser or microwaves or something to adjust the atmosphere along the firing trajectory, maybe generate a less dense plasma trail for the projectile to move through, rather than having it dump energy by superheating the atmosphere itself?

 

[rrw4rusty]

You could fire a laser or microwaves or something to adjust the atmosphere along the firing trajectory, maybe generate a less dense plasma trail for the projectile to move through, rather than having it dump energy by superheating the atmosphere itself?

Does that help with guidance or just with burn up?

r

 

[Pianoman14]

Well, at the risk of more *screams*, another (future, SF) thought would be to machine the incoming asteroid into (one or more) lifting bodies. Yes, they're heavy and dense (or they're not worth much), but consider the recent space shuttle -- really very small wing area, and you would not have to have even that much lift for an unmanned body.

So, assume elliptical asteroid. Split in half to have reasonably smooth underbody. Carve away some of the upper edges to create stubby winglets. Attach computer controls (or even real pilots for dramatic potential), and some pretty modest reaction jets, and 'fly' (as in controlled crash) the thing down. Pilots guide to selected impact area and jettison just before crashdown.

I won't do the calculations of required lift, etc., but might be worth an hour or two of the OP's time.

You'll have to find a way to slow the asteroid down before the pilot ejects, though, otherwise the pilot would be killed by blunt-force trauma (this happened recently when an F-22 test pilot ejected at a high speed).

 

[jambaugh]

Just thought I'd throw this in FWIW. I once did the calculation which makes bar napkin figures for ground to orbit linear accelerators (e.g. rail guns) easy. I call it the "1g=1radian rule"

Take any spherical planet and let g be its surface gravity. To accelerate masses at 1 g one must accelerate over a length equal the radius of the planet (or one radian of angle) to reach escape velocity. On Earth that would be (1 nautical mile = 1 minute=1/60 deg, 1 radian = 57.3deg) 57.3 x 60= 3438 nautical miles.

One can then scale up the acceleration and reciprocally scale down the length. So on Earth at 3g acceleration that's 1146 nau mi, and at 6 g's 573 nau mi.

 

[rrw4rusty]

Mine the asteriod in situ and send the iron to L5. Build the infrastructure for a community there and send as many people as you have resources to support. Eventually we'll all get out of this gravity well up where we belong.

Ah Jimmy! A man after my own heart! If we don't, we're dead and after a thousand years the only thing left will be two dune buggies on the moon. Sixty million years from now intelligent bees will find them.

Unfortunately, that's another book. This one needs the explosive break up and atmospheric entry to support a major element of the plot. Redoing this would be re-writing up to 30% of my 124,000 word manuscript.

r

 

[JaredJames]

Ah Jimmy! A man after my own heart! If we don't, we're dead and after a thousand years the only thing left will be two dune buggies on the moon. Sixty million years from now intelligent bees will find them.

Unfortunately, that's another book. This one needs the explosive break up and atmospheric entry to support a major element of the plot. Redoing this would be re-writing up to 30% of my 124,000 word manuscript.

r

Could you not just mine them in orbit if that's where you've currently got them, and then use the charges to blow the remaining 'useless rock' into smaller chunks that would burn up in the atmosphere (no more need to bring them to the surface). Perhaps someone gets the charge size wrong or there's some sabotage which means instead of an asteroid being blown into small pieces that burn up easily, it ends up in large pieces which... (leading you back to your original need for charges blowing asteroids into house size pieces).

 

[rrw4rusty]

Just thought I'd throw this in FWIW. I once did the calculation which makes bar napkin figures for ground to orbit linear accelerators (e.g. rail guns) easy. I call it the "1g=1radian rule"

Take any spherical planet and let g be its surface gravity. To accelerate masses at 1 g one must accelerate over a length equal the radius of the planet (or one radian of angle) to reach escape velocity. On Earth that would be (1 nautical mile = 1 minute=1/60 deg, 1 radian = 57.3deg) 57.3 x 60= 3438 nautical miles.

One can then scale up the acceleration and reciprocally scale down the length. So on Earth at 3g acceleration that's 1146 nau mi, and at 6 g's 573 nau mi.

Dear Jambaugh,
I know cosmology, quantum physics (standard model, LQG, Strings) as well as any 20 year armchair armature but very recently I discovered I know more about brain surgery then Earth's own gravity, atmosphere, escape velocity and reentry LOL.

OK, your figures seem straight forward and I'll assume they are correct. I also do not know how many g a human being can take or if there are other considerations. Actually we must accommodate normal people (not astronauts) of most ages and physical condition. Some quick research shows that we can take a lot of Gs for brief periods front to back--80 or more. However, acceleration is limited to 3Gs when the space shuttle lifts off. I'll go with 3 (or higher).

You don't mention anything about height. The stratosphere extends from about 7 to 31 miles. Well, somewhere in this area for sure... now its construction limitations (at least for this know-nothing LOL). For now my new dimensions for the superconductive rail gun will be 1,150 miles long and 10 miles high (nice round numbers).

How' that sound?

Thanks,
Rusty

 

[rrw4rusty]

Could you not just mine them in orbit if that's where you've currently got them, and then use the charges to blow the remaining 'useless rock' into smaller chunks that would burn up in the atmosphere (no more need to bring them to the surface). Perhaps someone gets the charge size wrong or there's some sabotage which means instead of an asteroid being blown into small pieces that burn up easily, it ends up in large pieces which... (leading you back to your original need for charges blowing asteroids into house size pieces).

As mentioned (I'm pretty sure) the plot requires shaped charges breaking up the asteroid in orbit and also pushing it downward. They need the ore on the surface for a rail gun to launch stuff into orbit.

r

 

[JaredJames]

As mentioned (I'm pretty sure) the plot requires shaped charges breaking up the asteroid in orbit

They would be. Just destroying the remaining useless rock (stuff with no ore in) into smaller pieces to burn up in the atmosphere instead of trying to land house sized rocks (solves a lot of problems).

and also pushing it downward.

Again, as above. Once mined, the charges blow the remaining unused rock into small pieces for burn up and force them towards the atmosphere.

They need the ore on the surface for a rail gun to launch stuff into orbit.

Mined in space, taken to the surface for use (some form of ship, again removes the 'landing a house sized rock' problem), then you do whatever you want with it.

All you'd have to do then is introduce some form of sabotage or some calculation error which means that instead of small harmless pieces being sent towards the planet, huge pieces are.

With that system, just seems like you have a much more plausible setup (if it can be described as that) than trying to land house sized rocks.

But hey, it's your book so if you want to pilot house sized rocks, go for it. It is sci fi after all.

 

[rrw4rusty]

Do you know what 'plausible' means?


Not only is it plausible, it's quite possible, just not yet. Our technology is currently showing that the trend will get us there.

To suggest it's not possible let alone that it's not plausible is like suggesting that Rusty should not have PetaFlop computers in his story. Since they haven't been built yet, they never will be. And that means they're not even plausible. Nonsense.

If memory serves IBM accomplished this (barely) last June.

r