Buried water pipes freeze-has been cold-the sun comes out

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the phenomenon of buried water pipes freezing after a period of cold weather followed by sunlight. Participants explore the physics behind this occurrence, questioning the validity of claims made by contractors and examining related concepts such as the Mpemba effect. The scope includes theoretical reasoning, practical implications, and anecdotal evidence from contractors.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants challenge the idea that "heat drives the cold down," suggesting instead that cold temperatures can persist below ground even after surface warming occurs.
  • There is a suggestion that the freezing of pipes may be coincidental with sunny weather rather than a direct result of it.
  • Concerns are raised about the definition of "freezing solid" and whether it refers to pipes bursting or a complete cessation of water flow.
  • Participants note that pipes are typically buried below the frost line, where soil temperatures remain above freezing, and question the reliability of contractors' claims.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the validity of information from certain sources, such as Business Insider, regarding scientific theories.
  • There is mention of the potential impact of soil conditions, such as loose backfill, on the thermal conductivity around pipes, which could contribute to freezing issues.
  • One participant introduces the idea that warming may cause ice within pipes to become mobile, potentially leading to blockages.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of contractors' claims and the underlying physics of the situation. There is no consensus on whether the phenomenon described is scientifically valid or merely anecdotal.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of factors affecting pipe freezing, including soil conditions, the frost line, and the timing of temperature changes. The discussion remains open-ended with various hypotheses presented but no definitive conclusions reached.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to professionals in engineering, construction, and environmental science, as well as individuals curious about the effects of temperature on buried infrastructure.

WVBrady
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Hi: I am a EE, but I have a question that I have searched for on the Internet and not found an answer. Contractors tell me that when it has been cold for several days and the sun comes out, that buried water lines that have not frozen all winter will suddenly freeze solid. It must be a real phenomenon, because they all have the same description: "The heat drives the cold down". I would like to know if anyone has a reason that is based on the laws of physics.

I have asked on another forum where there are some smart guys of various technical backgrounds, but they don't believe it. Most of them also don't believe that warm water can freeze before cold water, even after I posted to link that claims to verify it (known as the Mpemba effect".

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-new-theory-explains-why-warm-water-freezes-faster-than-cold-2013-11

Any ideas?
 
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Welcome to PF!

No, the heat does not drive the cold down. What probably happens is that the cold continues to travel down for a little while after the sun comes out.
 
WVBrady said:
Hi: I am a EE, but I have a question that I have searched for on the Internet and not found an answer. Contractors tell me that when it has been cold for several days and the sun comes out, that buried water lines that have not frozen all winter will suddenly freeze solid. It must be a real phenomenon, because they all have the same description: "The heat drives the cold down". I would like to know if anyone has a reason that is based on the laws of physics.

I have asked on another forum where there are some smart guys of various technical backgrounds, but they don't believe it. Most of them also don't believe that warm water can freeze before cold water, even after I posted to link that claims to verify it (known as the Mpemba effect".

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-new-theory-explains-why-warm-water-freezes-faster-than-cold-2013-11

Any ideas?

Yes. You shouldn't expect to get valid scientific theories from a website called businessinsider.com. :frown:

It can take several days for the temperature below ground to change in response to changes in the ambient temperature. After all, Earth does have some insulating effect. It was probably coincidental that the buried water pipes froze just as the weather turned sunny. :wink:
 
SteamKing said:
Yes. You shouldn't expect to get valid scientific theories from a website called businessinsider.com. :frown:

It can take several days for the temperature below ground to change in response to changes in the ambient temperature. After all, Earth does have some insulating effect. It was probably coincidental that the buried water pipes froze just as the weather turned sunny. :wink:
Maybe you would like this reference better: http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.6514

Also, it wasn't just a one-time occurrence; it was common knowledge among contractors, as was the other effect referenced above.
 
WVBrady said:
Hi: I am a EE, but I have a question that I have searched for on the Internet and not found an answer. Contractors tell me that when it has been cold for several days and the sun comes out, that buried water lines that have not frozen all winter will suddenly freeze solid. It must be a real phenomenon, because they all have the same description: "The heat drives the cold down". I would like to know if anyone has a reason that is based on the laws of physics.

I have asked on another forum where there are some smart guys of various technical backgrounds, but they don't believe it. Most of them also don't believe that warm water can freeze before cold water, even after I posted to link that claims to verify it (known as the Mpemba effect".

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-new-theory-explains-why-warm-water-freezes-faster-than-cold-2013-11

Any ideas?
What is the symptom of the "pipes freezing solid." Is it (a) that the pipes burst or (b) that no water flows through them any more?

Chet
 
WVBrady said:
Maybe you would like this reference better: http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.6514

Also, it wasn't just a one-time occurrence; it was common knowledge among contractors, as was the other effect referenced above.
That's a sperate issue to the OP. If the pipes froze earlier in the winter after a warmer summer it might apply. Warming the Earth above a pipe will raise the temperature of that pipe, there's no two ways about it.
I'd guess urban myth along with coincidence. Unless flow rate has some correlation to the sun in which case flow would drop enough for the pipe to freeze..
 
WVBrady said:
Contractors tell me that when it has been cold for several days and the sun comes out, that buried water lines that have not frozen all winter will suddenly freeze solid

You have to explain what pipes the contractors are talking about. Common practice would be to bury the pipes below the frost line, where the soil never freezes. A cold snap will drive the frost line farther down, sometimes overlapping the pipes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frost_line
 
Chestermiller said:
What is the symptom of the "pipes freezing solid." Is it (a) that the pipes burst or (b) that no water flows through them any more?

Chet
I'm not sure.
 
WVBrady said:
common knowledge among contractors
Big red flag.
256bits said:
Common practice would be to bury the pipes below the frost line, where the soil never freezes.
Properly backfilled, this is great. "Common practice of 'Industry standards' " is not so great. Snow melt soaking into loose backfill and freezing raises thermal conductivity of "soil" over pipes and you ARE in trouble.
 
  • #10
Bystander said:
"Common practice of 'Industry standards' " is not so great.
I was a little hesitant to put it down that way, which is why I asked the question about the contractors and their pipes, but I wanted to get the frost line out there. Loose granular fill, instead of a more clayish fill might be standard in that area. With salted roads, and that leaking down spells more trouble.
 
  • #11
There is also the complexity that when things start to warm, pipes on the surface thaw and water starts to flow again. A layer of ice on the inside of a pipe may break away in warming weather and become mobile. That mobile ice may move into places where it can plug the flow for some time.
 

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