Can a beam of photons accelerate an atom or object?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of whether a beam of photons can accelerate an atom or object, particularly through the mechanism of light pressure. Participants explore theoretical implications, practical applications, and related phenomena, including the behavior of devices like Crookes radiometers and the principles behind light sails.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that photons impacting an atom can increase the energy level of electrons, potentially leading to acceleration of the atom through continuous impact.
  • Others affirm that light pressure can indeed move objects, citing the momentum of light despite its lack of mass, and reference the concept of light sails as practical examples.
  • A participant mentions the application of radiation pressure in thermonuclear weapons, indicating a significant force involved in such processes.
  • There is a discussion about Crookes radiometers, with some participants arguing that they are not primarily affected by light pressure, while others provide links to further explanations of their operation.
  • One participant introduces the idea of charged particles being accelerated in particle accelerators using RF fields, suggesting a connection to photons.
  • Another participant expresses confusion about the mechanics of Crookes radiometers and the effects of light on their movement, questioning the impact of laser light on their operation.
  • There is a request for recommendations on literature to better understand the transition from heating an object to affecting its velocity with photons, with a response indicating that all energy levels can contribute to this effect.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that photons can exert pressure and potentially accelerate objects, but there is no consensus on the specifics of how this occurs or the implications for different systems, such as Crookes radiometers. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact conditions under which photons affect velocity versus heating.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes various assumptions about the behavior of light and matter, and there are unresolved questions about the definitions of "significant" heating and velocity changes. The complexity of the interactions described may depend on specific experimental setups and conditions.

PJMath
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Not quite sure how to ask this, but here goes: I think I understand how a photon impacting an atom can increase the energy level of an electron in the atom. When I read about "light pressure", I thought, is there a way for, say, a stream of photons to accelerate an atom by continually impacting the atom until it moved or changed its velocity? Is this what light pressure does to an object? Thanks for any insights.
 
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PJMath said:
Not quite sure how to ask this, but here goes: I think I understand how a photon impacting an atom can increase the energy level of an electron in the atom. When I read about "light pressure", I thought, is there a way for, say, a stream of photons to accelerate an atom by continually impacting the atom until it moved or changed its velocity? Is this what light pressure does to an object? Thanks for any insights.
Yes, "light sails" do move things because light has momentum even though it has no mass
 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...s_radiometer.jpg/220px-Crookes_radiometer.jpg
220px-Crookes_radiometer.jpg
 
PJMath said:
Not quite sure how to ask this, but here goes: I think I understand how a photon impacting an atom can increase the energy level of an electron in the atom. When I read about "light pressure", I thought, is there a way for, say, a stream of photons to accelerate an atom by continually impacting the atom until it moved or changed its velocity? Is this what light pressure does to an object? Thanks for any insights.

Charged particles, including heavy ions, are accelerated in particle accelerators using RF fields. So that, technically, are photons.

Zz.
 
jtbell said:

Very interesting, thanks! I definitely had the wrong picture in my head about how it worked.

  1. The final piece of the puzzle, thermal transpiration, was theorized by Osborne Reynolds[5] in an unpublished paper that was refereed by Maxwell, who then published his own paper which contained a critique of the mathematics in Reynolds's unpublished paper.[6] Maxwell died that year and the Royal Society refused to publish Reynolds's critique of Maxwell's rebuttal to Reynolds's unpublished paper, as it was felt that this would be an inappropriate argument when one of the people involved had already died.[3] Reynolds found that if a porous plate is kept hotter on one side than the other, the interactions between gas molecules and the plates are such that gas will flow through from the cooler to the hotter side. The vanes of a typical Crookes radiometer are not porous, but the space past their edges behaves like the pores in Reynolds's plate. On average, the gas molecules move from the cold side toward the hot side whenever the pressure ratio is less than the square root of the (absolute) temperature ratio. The pressure difference causes the vane to move, cold (white) side forward due to the tangential force of the movement of the rarefied gas moving from the colder edge to the hotter edge.[3]

But so are they saying that with a fully evacuated version that has mirrors on the vanes, that you won't get rotation if you shine a strong laser on one side of one of the vanes? I suppose that the small vane pivot friction is too big to overcome with just light (as opposed to a solar sail in frictionless space)...
 
anorlunda said:
Definitely yes. This is the key principle of the two-stage thermonuclear warhead, radiation pressure up to 1,400 million bars!

You may also have seen news about the lightsail project last week.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon#Radiation_pressure
Thanks for the response. Can you also recommend any books/articles/etc. that I can read to obtain a better understanding of this topic? For example, at what point or energy level might a stream of photons go from simply heating up an object to affecting its velocity?
 
  • #10
PJMath said:
Thanks for the response. Can you also recommend any books/articles/etc. that I can read to obtain a better understanding of this topic? For example, at what point or energy level might a stream of photons go from simply heating up an object to affecting its velocity?

Ah, you may need to reprase your question. The literal answer is and and all energy levels. I think you're getting hung up on unscientific notions of "significant" heating and "significant" velocity change.
 

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