Can a Closed System at Absolute Zero Experience Thermodynamic Change?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of reaching absolute zero in a closed system, particularly concerning thermodynamic changes, entropy, and the nature of time and movement at this temperature. Participants explore theoretical aspects and the consequences of such a state in terms of energy and entropy.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether a closed system at absolute zero would experience any media or events, suggesting it might be a state of infinite entropy.
  • Another participant argues that absolute zero is unattainable and does not imply zero energy due to the presence of zero point energy, stating that many systems can be modeled without considering temperature.
  • A different viewpoint claims that absolute zero would correspond to a state of zero entropy or constant entropy for non-degenerate systems, emphasizing the quantum mechanical aspect of zero point energy.
  • One participant connects the concept of absolute zero with the idea that if nothing moves, including subatomic particles, then no changes occur, leading to a lack of awareness of time passing.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of absolute zero, particularly regarding entropy and the nature of time. There is no consensus on whether absolute zero leads to infinite entropy or zero entropy, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of defining states at absolute zero, including the role of zero point energy and the indirect relationship between entropy and temperature. There are also references to the limitations of classical versus quantum mechanical interpretations.

BosonJaw
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Hello all

This question is probably a bit ridiculous, but here goes:

Hypothetically, If any given closed system has obtained absolute zero temp, does any media (time, gravity, events)occur within? Thermodynamically, Wouldn't this be a state of infinite entropy? Can anyone describe such a system?

Thanks

BTW feel free to enlighten me on the laws of absolute zero, for all I know, I could have just asked, does 1 + 1 = an orange peel
 
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Absolute zero is limit which is impossible to reach for a real system.
Also, note that absolute zero does not imply zero energy since you still have the zero point energy.
In many cases we can model real systems quite well without taking the temperature into consideration (i.e. we assume zero temperature) and nothing dramatic happens. This is a valid approximation assuming the temperature (or to be more precise, kB*T)is much smaller than the typical energies of the problem (e.g. much smaller than the bandgap of a semiconductor, or the gap in a superconductor). Hence, in most cases it won't matter if the system is at zero K or just very small. There is nothing "mysterious" about zero temperature.

If am not qute sure why you think the entropy would go to infinty; entropy is essentially a measure of disorder and is only indirectly connected to temperature (there are measures of entropy that are not related to temperature at all, e.g. the von Neumann entropy).
 
BosonJaw said:
Thermodynamically, Wouldn't this be a state of infinite entropy?

Thermodynamically, it would be a state of zero entropy (or a constant entropy for non-degenerate systems).

The system will have a minimum energy, which is called the zero point energy. This is a quantum-mechanical effect. Classically, it should have had zero energy.
 
If nothing moves, including electrons, protons, neutrons, then nothing changes--no aging, no degradation, etc. When nothing changes we have no awareness of timing passing.

At absolute zero, nothing moves/changes, correct? All activity stops.

What do others think about this connection?

I guess I was thinking along these lines.

Thanks for the help.
 

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