Can absolute zero ever be achieved?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of achieving absolute zero, exploring theoretical concepts related to kinetic energy, thermodynamics, and quantum mechanics. Participants examine the implications of the third law of thermodynamics, the role of perfect insulation, and the limitations imposed by current technology and physical laws.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that absolute zero is theoretically unattainable due to the third law of thermodynamics.
  • Others argue that achieving absolute zero would require perfect insulation, which is believed to be impossible due to quantum fluctuations.
  • A few participants suggest that while absolute zero may be approached, it cannot be reached because of the cosmic microwave background radiation present in the universe.
  • There are claims that if absolute zero were achieved, it could lead to catastrophic consequences, such as the universe collapsing into itself.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, suggesting that reaching absolute zero would violate this principle by allowing precise measurements of particle positions and velocities.
  • One participant mentions that certain cooling technologies have come close to absolute zero, but still fall short.
  • There are references to the idea that energy from surrounding matter would prevent any system from reaching absolute zero.
  • Several participants express skepticism about the possibility of ever attaining absolute zero, citing both theoretical and practical challenges.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that absolute zero is impossible to attain, but there are multiple competing views regarding the implications of this impossibility and the conditions required to approach it. The discussion remains unresolved with ongoing speculation and differing interpretations of thermodynamic laws.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations related to the definitions of absolute zero, the role of quantum mechanics, and the practical challenges of achieving such a state. There are unresolved mathematical and theoretical considerations regarding the implications of reaching absolute zero.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, or anyone curious about the fundamental limits of temperature and energy in the universe.

  • #31
ffleming7 said:
Can absolute zero ever be achieved? I this a theoretical kinetic energy?


Yes, absolute zero can be reached, although not using thermodynamical means. And no, temperature is not kinetic energy, despite what most high school physics textbooks will tell you.

Temperature is a statistical concept that arises when you describe a system consisting of many particles using a few macroscopically measurable variables like volume, pressure etc. Clearly, to be able to do statistical computations, you need to know the probabilities of the system being in some arbitrary state. It turns out that for an isolated system the laws of physics suggest that all accessible states are a priori equally likely. So, it's a bit like throwing dice, all the possible throws are equally likely. And just like dice throwing problems can be solved by counting in how many ways a certain outcomes can be realized, in physics we just neet to know how many states there are for each macrostate. I.e. given the volume, total internal energy, how many energy levels are there compatible with these macroscopic variables? All these energy levels the system can be in are then equally probable.

A minor complication is the following. If we specify the internal energy with infinite accuracy, then there usually can be only one state the system can be in (ignoring possible exact degeneracies). If the system consists of a large number of particles, then the spacing between energy levels will decrease (simply because the more particles you have, the more different states between two given total energies you can make). So, what we do is we specify a small energy interval \Delta E and when we say that the total energy is E we mean that the system must be in some energy level with an energy between E and E+\Delta E. It turns out that the choice of \Delta E does not affect the outcome of calculations when the limit of system size to inifinity is taken (the so-called thermodynamic limit).

What we need to know to do statistics is, given some energy E, how many states (energy levels) are there between energy E and E+\Delta E? It is customary to denote this quantity (so-called multiplicity fiunction) as \Omega\left(E\right).

To see how all this leads to something like "temperature", consider two systems with multiplicity functions \Omega_{1}\left(E_{1}\right) and \Omega_{2}\left(E_{2}\right). The number of states available for the combined system must be the product:

\Omega_{1}\left(E_{1}\right)\times \Omega_{2}\left(E_{2}\right)

Suppose that we bring the two systems into contact, so that energy can flow from one system to the other. If all microstates are equally likely, then in thermal equilibrium, you will get that outcome for which there are the largest number of microstates. If the total energy is E, then we can put E_{2}=E - E_{1} and compute for which value for E1 the above expression is maximal. It is more convenient to maximize the logarithm:



\frac{d \log\left[\Omega_1\left(E_1\right)\right]}{dE_1} = - \frac{d \log\left[\Omega_2\left(E-E_1\right)\right]}{dE_1}

Or, rewriting the r.h.s. in terms of E_2:


\frac{d \log\left[\Omega_1\left(E_1\right)\right]}{dE_1} = \frac{d \log\left[\Omega_2\left(E_2\right)\right]}{dE_2}

So, what we see is that the derivatives of the logarithms of the multiplicity functions w.r.t. energy become equal in thermal equilibrium. One defines the temperature as being inversely proportional to this quantity.


Now, with a little more work you can show that at zero temperature a system will be in the ground state. So, the question is really, can we put a system in its ground state? The answer is, of course we can! In principle, even for a system containing 10^{30} particles, you can put the entire system in its ground state simply by manipulating the individual particles. Quantum mechanics will not prevent you from doing that.

However, you cannot do it using thermodynamic means only (i.e. by manipulating the few macroscopic variables or by bringing the system into thermal contact with another system). The reason is that thermal contact does not work because heat flows only from hot to cold, so you would need something colder in the first place. The only other option left is by letting the system perform work. But this will leave the multiplicity function \Omega the same at best. Going to lower \Omega is statistically ruled out because all states being equally likely, lower \Omega has less probability. Now, a little less proabability would be no problem, however, at absolute zero the system has \Omega=1 because we then know it to be in the (unique) ground state. The system at even very low but nonzero temperatures will have an astronomically large value for \Omega.
 
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  • #32
Great post Count Iblis! I agree with what you are saying.
 
  • #33
greeniguana00 said:
Well, it would be a violation of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle if you could detect the existence of such a particle. I don't see how its sole existence would violate it.

Also, thermodynamics seems to be a field of probability. While energy tends to flow from high to low on average, there are cases where by pure chance energy will flow in the opposite direction. Perhaps with the enormous number of particles in the universe, one has been just lucky enough to lose all its energy.
Isn't the definition of absolute zero when an ideal gas exerts zero pressure and so the temperature is derived indirectly and so would not be a violation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle ?

Also AFAIK a gas at absolute zero still has quantum fluctuations. Isn't this motion the source of zero point energy?
 
  • #34
One thing I never understood about absolute zero or even near it. Say you had a gas that was near abs zero. Since the particles are moving so slow wouldn't they be closer to the ground to a point that the gas is just a pile of single atoms on the floor? Considering that there is not energy for the gas to rise.
 
  • #35
bassplayer142 said:
One thing I never understood about absolute zero or even near it. Say you had a gas that was near abs zero. Since the particles are moving so slow wouldn't they be closer to the ground to a point that the gas is just a pile of single atoms on the floor? Considering that there is not energy for the gas to rise.

Bose-Einstein condensates. Google.
 
  • #36
Art said:
Isn't the definition of absolute zero when an ideal gas exerts zero pressure and so the temperature is derived indirectly and so would not be a violation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle ?

Also AFAIK a gas at absolute zero still has quantum fluctuations. Isn't this motion the source of zero point energy?

At absolute zero the classical gas law breaks down (even for an ideal gas). To see this just imagine that you have N noninteracting molecules trapped in a box. What is the total ground state energy of this system? Well, you can just put all the molecules in the same singe particle ground state, so it is N times E0, where E0 is the ground state energy of a single molecule. What is E0? Well, the ground state wavefunction will have a single peak in the middle of the box and zero at the boundaries. If we put the boundaries at x = -L/2 and L/2 and similarly for y and z (so that the volume of the box is L^3), then

psi(x,y,z) = A cos(pi x/L)cos(pi y/L)cos(pi z/L)

The energy times the wavefunction is is - hbar^2 nabla^2/(2m) psi, where nabla^2 is the sum of the second derivatives w.r.t. x, y, and z, h-bar = h/(2 pi), and m is the mass of a single molecule. So we find that E0 is given by:

E0 = 3 pi^2 h-bar^2/(2 m L^2)

So, we see that the total ground state energy is:

E = 3/2 pi^2 h-bar^2 N /m V^(-2/3)

The system at absolute zero will be in the ground state and will have this energy. Since this energy depends on the volume, the pressure is nonzero. The pressure is minus the derivate of the energy w.r.t. volume. So we have:

P(absolute zero) = pi^2 h-bar^2 N /m V^(-5/3)
 
  • #37
I was watching something about this on PBS...Called Absolute Zero. It was very interesting and I loved the idea of a Bose-Einstein Condensate.
 
  • #38

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