Can Long-Term Marriage Retain Its Spark?

[sneez]

I think this disagreement is just a matter of how we internalize what is referred to as "work". I can say that you have either never been married for longer time (more than 3 years, and living together even though closer to, is still far away from 'marriage' when the legality and finacial side kicks in) or if have this exact kind of thinking (work requirement being outdated and to it related psychology) in both partners leads to divorce.

To the first point: Its not as if married couple is in gulag camp, trying to get through another day, on the contrary the work becomes the love for the other, however, there is dynamics in relationships and the nonlinearity of it are great ... (for geeks: http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pubs/paper277.htm, for psychology oriented ones: I like jung particulary shadow/anima/animus)

I am not sure why is it abhorent to acknowledge that work is needed in successful relationship. Maybe we all got carried away with this age and instant gratification which gets projected into our relationships. This false/deceiving cult of romantic love is getting grip onto our generations and causing severe neurological problems which results in damage to our pschology. Any teenager today who gets through all the sex and partying (where social status toward opposite sex is assesed) is so damaged in general, that any perspective of realationship with opposite sex is hopeless. Only constant projection of the psychological illusion of perfect partner who is just right get projected over and over again, totally missing the person who it is project onto. (This rant is certainly not to you Evo, its in general how I see the situation through your typical comment). I guarantee, you will come learn something about yourself from this: We, the psychology of romantic love: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062504363/?tag=pfamazon01-20
(very short, and great expansion on jungian concepts as related to love)

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't agree, I think it should be: "the best thing about getting married.." what garantee do you have that your spouse still likes to be with you after some time of marriage?

That's why you "try before you buy".

 

[Evo]

I've been married twice, first time for 9 years, second time for 17 years. I finally had to admit in both relationships that I wasn't happy and we weren't compatible.

If you and your spouse turn out to not have the same goals, parenting style, beliefs, traits, etc... then you realistically aren't a good match. Unfortunately a lot of these things aren't discovered until after you are married. If you have to "work" at trying not to argue, if you feel you are having to give things up and are forced to make concessions in order to get along, it's a bad relationship that you are just applying bandages to. But to each his own, if people want to live like that, that's their decision. I don't think people should be told that a "good" relationship requires unhappiness and sacrifice, that's not true.

I'm single because I don't want to live a life like that. I'd rather face the challenges of making it on my own than live with someone I'm not compatible with and have to "make concessions" and compromise myself.

I know a lot of people that are compatible and have great marriages or relationships. That doesn't mean that once in a while they don't have a disagreement over some isolated incident, but that's an exception, not the rule. They don't have to "work" at trying to be happy with each other. Those are healthy relationships. That's the only kind of relationship I will accept now that I understand what to look for in a partner.

 

[sneez]

I think I understand. There is certainly no general help/advice on this. From what you describe I can comment that it takes 2 to the work, unfortunalelly.

Good match has everything to do with what you describe, but is not sufficient condition. (I don't want to say necessary because its not, but in general is important)

Its respectful to know what one wants and there is no single thing being wrong even when getting out from "healty" marriage if that outweights the benefit of staying together.

I do not dare to pass judgement on other couple's relationship on its greatness or otherwise just from outsider's perspective (even my closest friends).

When asked a question : "how is it like to be married"? (which implies what to expect), I would strongly caution the couple about the work involved rather than the many and great benefits of being together, because its the "work" that leads to divorce/distrust/abuse/psychological harm/etc

 

[Evo]

When asked a question : "how is it like to be married"? (which implies what to expect), I would strongly caution the couple about the work involved rather than the many and great benefits of being together, because its the "work" that leads to divorce/distrust/abuse/psychological harm/etc

I think we're in agreement that marriage is not something to take lightly. It's so easy to get married, so difficult (and costly) to get out of.

I would much rather see my two girls live with someone than get married, neither of my sisters chose to marry and they are happy.

 

[Monique]

I would much rather see my two girls live with someone than get married, neither of my sisters chose to marry and they are happy.

It's funny that you should say that, both my parents and my boyfriend's parents have said that we don't need to get married, we should just be happy. Since both our parents our still together after 25+ years of marriage (and still radiating affection), they are great role models.

 

[Evo]

It's funny that you should say that, both my parents and my boyfriend's parents have said that we don't need to get married, we should just be happy. Since both our parents our still together after 25+ years of marriage (and still radiating affection), they are great role models.

That is so wonderful to hear. Great advice too!

My mom was the opposite, she told me "a man won't buy the cow if he can get the milk for free". Gee, thanks for comparing me to a cow mom.

 

[turbo]

Cohabitation before marriage is a good idea. The time-frame should be long enough for the couple to go through some ups and downs before making a commitment to wed. If the death of a close friend or relative or the loss of a job or a forced move (to get a new job, for instance) or some other stressful events just bring you closer together (out of love and mutual support, not out of some one-sided clingy dependence), then the odds are good that you are made for one another.

 

[Evo]

That reminds me of the "former Miss Ohio" that I worked with. Her husband didn't get a raise she demanded he ask for, so she divorced him. She said she didn't want to be tied to a loser. (well Miss Ohio, you lost the Miss America pageant) She was weird, her hair never moved, and she could smile without moving any facial muscles, it was really eerie.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Cohabitation before marriage is a good idea.

You should explain this to my wife, Lisa!, who decided we were married without even having spent a minute in the same hemisphere of the globe together. I wasn't even invited to the wedding.

 

[Lisa!]

That is so wonderful to hear. Great advice too!

My mom was the opposite, she told me "a man won't buy the cow if he can get the milk for free". Gee, thanks for comparing me to a cow mom.

You were the only daughter of her who listened to her advice!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

See, that's where I disagree, a good relationship doesn't require hard work, bad relationships require hardwork. It's when the person isn't right for you that you have to make a lot of compromises and concessions, etc...

I think the idea of marriage needing to be a difficult struggle comes from outdated ideas of marriage being some kind of sacred mistake that one needs to remain stuck in, no matter what.

I don't really agree with that one entirely. We have gone through very difficult periods that required a great deal of hard work, and we came out of it even closer. And beyond that, many of the most difficult times resulted from medical issues. It turns out that my allergies and blood sugar problems can make me very difficult; and I'm not just talking about a bad mood. My allergies cause some pretty serious anger and depression. When I would get like that, before we understood the problem, it was all that I could do to not bite her head off for existing. On the flip side, Tsu has struggled with thyroid problems that can make her impossible to live with at times. But how could I leave her for being sick? It seemed to me that we had made a commitment for better or worse, and "worse" is guaranteed to come along now and then. And of course she did eventually get better, but it took years. In the end, we have found that many of our most difficult problems were due to external issues. What was not always easy was to understand that this was the problem; not what we thought was the problem and the reason for the difficulties. The inclination is to respond to the anger and not to recognize the cause of the problem. Were we not both committed, we most likely would have just given up, and for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Evo]

I don't really agree with that one entirely. We have gone through very difficult periods that required a great deal of hard work, and we came out of it even closer. And beyond that, many of the most difficult times resulted from medical issues. It turns out that my allergies and blood sugar problems can make me very difficult; and I'm not just talking about a bad mood. My allergies cause some pretty serious anger and depression. When I would get like that, before we understood the problem, it was all that I could do to not bite her head off for existing. On the flip side, Tsu has struggled with thyroid problems that can make her impossible to live with at times. But how could I leave her for being sick? It seemed to me that we had made a commitment for better or worse, and "worse" is guaranteed to come along now and then. And of course she did eventually get better, but it took years. In the end, we have found that many of our most difficult problems were due to external issues. What was not always easy was to understand that this was the problem; not what we thought was the problem and the reason for the difficulties. The inclination is to respond to the anger and not to recognize the cause of the problem. Were we not both committed, we most likely would have just given up, and for all the wrong reasons.

Problems caused by stress from things like illness aren't the same as basic incompatibilty though, at least not in my book. I can deal with someone that's ill or grouchy. My first boyfriend was handicapped from a motorcycle accident, and he'd become very bitter at times, mostly due to the constant pain he was in and the fact that his condition was continually deteriorating.

 

[Lisa!]

Oh I just see this post:

You should explain this to my wife, Lisa!, who decided we were married without even having spent a minute in the same hemisphere of the globe together. I wasn't even invited to the wedding.

Well that expalins why we are still happily married ,sweetheart!

 

[zoobyshoe]

Oh I just see this post:




Well that expalins why we are still happily married ,sweetheart!

"I asked my baby if there'd be some way.
She said she'd save her love for a rainy day.
I look in the sky but I look in vain:
Heavy cloud but
No rain."

-Sting

 

[Monique]

Problems caused by stress from things like illness aren't the same as basic incompatibilty though, at least not in my book. I can deal with someone that's ill or grouchy. My first boyfriend was handicapped from a motorcycle accident, and he'd become very bitter at times, mostly due to the constant pain he was in and the fact that his condition was continually deteriorating.

I agree, my boyfriend also struggles with allergies (I recognize Ivan's case) and sometimes has been impossible to deal with. He has always apologized in retrospect (the same day) so now I recognize when his reaction comes from a stress-instinct. I don't think you need to be commited, as long as you communicate what drives your emotions.

 

[Astronuc]

a good relationship doesn't require hard work, bad relationships require hardwork. It's when the person isn't right for you that you have to make a lot of compromises and concessions, etc...

A marriage, even a good marriage, takes effort and sometimes hard work, but it should not be a battle. Perhaps it is the meaning of 'hard' work we should clarify. If one has to make 'a lot of compromises and concessions', that is a recipe for disaster. One should not change oneself to suit the other's fancy, and the other should not expect and certainly should not demand one change. If that is the case, something is very wrong. This is certainly a matter to be explored BEFORE committing to a marriage.

I think the idea of marriage needing to be a difficult struggle comes from outdated ideas of marriage being some kind of sacred mistake that one needs to remain stuck in, no matter what. Back in the old days, most women either had to be married or they were considered as a burden to their family, they really didn't have much choice. Now women in most societies can support themselves and that's changed how marriage is viewed.

Marriage should NOT be a struggle. If it is, something is very wrong.

Yes - women are more independent - and from what I see, they are more anxious, especially when looking for a compatible mate or partner.

My parents weren't compatible, but they refused to get divorced, so they solved the problem by living in two separate homes. My mom and us kids lived at the main house and my dad stayed at the lake house.

I very sorry to hear that. That must have been rough on the family.

Marriage, like life, is not always smooth sailing. It's great to share the good times, but when things get stormy, it's nice to have a reliable partner at one's side until the storm subsides.

A husband and wife should be best friends.

 

[Astronuc]

If you and your spouse turn out to not have the same goals, parenting style, beliefs, traits, etc... then you realistically aren't a good match. Unfortunately a lot of these things aren't discovered until after you are married.

It is important for couples to discuss goals, parenting style, beliefs, traits, history, finance, intimacy, . . . . BEFORE marriage, and that is the part of the dating process. On the other hand, dating seems for many to be a vehicle for entertainment.

In my case, in addition to having a pleasant social engagement, I used dating to get to know better the women I dated, with the possibility that I might must find one compatiable enough to marry. At some point the dating became courting. For one reason or other, it didn't work out with a number of women before I met the one I married, and in those cases I simply remained a friend with those other women. In most cases, I knew we were incompatible because we didn't share various characteristics, including those Evo listed. Another major reason was that I was not settled myself. Even into my early 20's I struggled with where I fit in the world, and for a while I wasn't sure. I wasn't until I settled down academically and saw a degree and career on the horizon that I felt settled.

If you have to "work" at trying not to argue, if you feel you are having to give things up and are forced to make concessions in order to get along, it's a bad relationship that you are just applying bandages to.

One should NOT have to work at trying not to argue. It is a bad relationship.

I don't think people should be told that a "good" relationship requires unhappiness and sacrifice, that's not true.

Correct. Unhappiness and continued sacrifice/concession are indications of a failed relationship.

If one partner is always giving (and in the extreme sacrificing) and the other partner is simply taking, then the relationship has failed with respect to mutuality and reciprocity, and that marriage is a failure.

Marriage is about mutual support, each partner giving as well as receiving from the other. Both persons, as any human being, have needs and wants, goals and aspriations. Ideally, with mutual support, both partners share in fulfilling those needs, wants, goals and aspriations.

 

[Astronuc]

Cohabitation before marriage is a good idea. The time-frame should be long enough for the couple to go through some ups and downs before making a commitment to wed. If the death of a close friend or relative or the loss of a job or a forced move (to get a new job, for instance) or some other stressful events just bring you closer together (out of love and mutual support, not out of some one-sided clingy dependence), then the odds are good that you are made for one another.

I don't know if co-habitation really works. Sometimes, the couple cohabits and puts off the courting process.

My parents were engaged for 7 years! In that time, they learned about each other, and met each other's families. My father was in university and they didn't have accommodations for married students. Also, he didn't have a steady job during his academic program, so he couldn't afford to support a family, let alone a wife. My dad didn't have enough money to buy a nice suit in which to get married, so my mom's father bought my dad a suit! On the other hand, he used to find summer jobs near my mom so he could be close by.

My parents have been married for nearly 51 years, and they have a great relationship, and they are looking forward to as much of a future as possible together. They are each other's best friend.

 

[Moonbear]

I'm going through a divorce right now, so I can definitely say marriage requires two equal partners who are both willing to make necessary adjustments and have the maturity to actually try to work at making a marriage work. Aside from being a parent, marriage is the most difficult job a person can ever have. It requires constant compromise.

This is where I agree with Evo. If you constantly need to compromise, and it's something you view as a difficult job, then it's not a good marriage. I think too many people have fallen for this notion that marriage is always a struggle and involves a lot of compromise, and that's why we have such high divorce rates. If someone is right for you, those things should come naturally. It doesn't mean you won't make compromises for each other, it just won't feel like you're making compromises or that you need to compromise. You shouldn't have to give up being yourself to be with someone else. You should enjoy each other for who you are.

Just as another point of clarification, I do think it's normal for couples to argue...you're not identical people with identical thoughts, and it's normal to have disagreements. Where it becomes a problem is when it changes from disagreements or arguments to fighting and bickering and nagging.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How do you all feel about personality types? By some accounts [including our own] we are a somewhat unique pair.

I had a great Aunt who had never met Tsu or me, but after spending about an hour with us, she asked, "how in the hell have you managed to stay married?!" At which time Tsu and I both lost it. It wasn't that we had done anything except have a good time, but my aunt immediately noticed that we are both such strong personalities that she didn't see how we could live in the same house. Of course the reason that we started laughing was that we knew this was an issue long ago, but it was funny to hear it from someone else in such bold terms.

Do most couples tend to have a clearly dominant personality. I know my parents did. Usually mom ruled the roost. Once in a great while dad would intervene, but only on the rarest of occasions.

 

[Moonbear]

Do most couples tend to have a clearly dominant personality. I know my parents did. Usually mom ruled the roost. Once in a great while dad would intervene, but only on the rarest of occasions.

Actually, in most relationships I've been in, that's been a major part of the downfall. If I don't have a partner who is also a very strong personality, I end up over-dominating the relationship, and neither of us ends up happy with that (and, as strange as it may sound, usually I'm the one least happy about it). In the best relationship I was ever in, we both had very strong personalities. At first, it did make for a lot of head-butting, but that's also why I mentioned a difference between arguments and fighting. We didn't fight, we didn't get pissed off at each other (well, not for long anyway), we just aired our differences and were strong enough to take it, then moved along. Most such arguments would end with one of us laughing and saying something like, "That's why I love you."

 

[Astronuc]

Do most couples tend to have a clearly dominant personality. I know my parents did. Usually mom ruled the roost. Once in a great while dad would intervene, but only on the rarest of occasions.

My son thinks I'm too deferential too my wife. Well - I just know my place.

Actually, I just don't have strong views on most domestic issues, so there really are two many conflicts.

I had a great Aunt who had never met Tsu or me, but after spending about an hour with us, she asked, "how in the hell have you managed to stay married?!"

Perhaps. My wife has a strong personality in some ways, and I have a strong personality and attitude (but no ego), but we work it out.

I did have to get used to my wife's method of discussion, which was more like arguing, but I learned. I don't particularly care for raised voices, and that is what she grew up with.

In the best relationship I was ever in, we both had very strong personalities.

That was a factor I was looking for in a wife, someone with strong personality who could balance mine. I need someone who would talk to me, tell me what was on her mind, and work with me.

 

[Evo]

Actually, in most relationships I've been in, that's been a major part of the downfall. If I don't have a partner who is also a very strong personality, I end up over-dominating the relationship, and neither of us ends up happy with that (and, as strange as it may sound, usually I'm the one least happy about it). In the best relationship I was ever in, we both had very strong personalities. At first, it did make for a lot of head-butting, but that's also why I mentioned a difference between arguments and fighting. We didn't fight, we didn't get pissed off at each other (well, not for long anyway), we just aired our differences and were strong enough to take it, then moved along. Most such arguments would end with one of us laughing and saying something like, "That's why I love you."

Now, that's what I would consider a healthy relationship. You acknowledge and appreciate differences.

It's when the differences are considered problems that need to be worked on with one or both parties conceeding to the other to keep the other placated. Where it becomes a job to remember to keep giving in and giving up what you want and need to keep some semblance of peace. It's unhealthy.

 

[turbo]

My son thinks I'm too deferential too my wife. Well - I just know my place.

Actually, I just don't have strong views on most domestic issues, so there really are two many conflicts.


Perhaps. My wife has a strong personality in some ways, and I have a strong personality and attitude (but no ego), but we work it out.

I did have to get used to my wife's method of discussion, which was more like arguing, but I learned. I don't particularly care for raised voices, and that is what she grew up with.

There are times when we have made accommodations that younger people do not or cannot understand. Your kids are sweet, but I do not expect them to exhibit the same maturity that you and your wife show us. Kids are kids. You and your wife are sweeties, and your kids will mature to your level, I am sure.

 

[Astronuc]

There are times when we have made accommodations that younger people do not or cannot understand. Your kids are sweet, but I do not expect them to exhibit the same maturity that you and your wife show us. Kids are kids. You and your wife are sweeties, and your kids will mature to your level, I am sure.

My daughter talks too much, and she needs to learn to listen.

I am concerned about my son. He is quiet and thoughtful, and a bit cynical about the world. He has also had some bad experience with some girls who were rude and very unkind to him. I hope he finds a gentle and patient woman with whom he can share his thoughts and enjoy pleasant conversation - kind like the signature Monique used to have.

Some of the best times I had with my wife just before we began dating were at dinner parties at friends' places, and we'd stand in the kitchen while I cooked and talk, or after dinner I'd wash dishes and she'd dry them, and we talked. And after that we'd sit off to the side and talk. After several months, I finally decided I'd better start dating her, which was a bit difficult since I lived 90 miles away. Over spring break, I asked her out, and then after 3 months of dating, I asked her to marry me.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Do most couples tend to have a clearly dominant personality. I know my parents did. Usually mom ruled the roost. Once in a great while dad would intervene, but only on the rarest of occasions.

hmmm well my gf of a year and I took the briggs myers test for fun and we are near opposites according to the test. But I do really think we balance each other out. I am passive, calming and "aloof". She is direct, organized and nervous. But so far it's worked out :)

Most such arguments would end with one of us laughing and saying something like, "That's why I love you."

Same here, we recognize our differences and celebrate them. We are both pretty grounded and intelligent so we make sure to understand and not let a difference ruin everything.

 

[Chronos]

Avoid grandma at all costs, Urvabara, it makes a bad first impression.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Marriage as a legal contract endorsed by the state is (or should be) obsolete. Marriage should only be a voluntary ceremony without legal implications if you want to announce that you are living together.

 

[Astronuc]

Marriage as a legal contract endorsed by the state is (or should be) obsolete. Marriage should only be a voluntary ceremony without legal implications if you want to announce that you are living together.

One enters into a marriage by one's volition - i.e. it's a choice, it's voluntary.

Marriage is a contract into which two parties enter both giving something (themselves) in order to received something (some consideration, which is supposed to be an exclusive relationship in most cases (unless one party is polygamous)).

Marriage requires effort, just like any relationship, or activity. When one gardens, one cultivates the ground, plants the seeds or seedlings, waters and fertilizes regularly, weed the ground, and then harvests the produce. The ground doesn't prepare itself, and plants don't plant or harvest themselves.

Marriage is about giving and receiving tender loving care (TLC).

But as we have seen many examples, marriage may not be for everyone.