Can Mathematical Models Explain Scenes from The Day the Earth Stood Still?

[DaveC426913]

Is this a physics/metallurgy/materials sci. question of what would be the color of a theoretical, impenetrable solid such as an alien robot and spaceship?

It's ... made of handwavium. It will be whatever colour the art director thinks will look right.

Or would such a metal have a distinctive color at all? Is this theoretically known?

No. The makeup of robot and spaceship is straight up fantasy.

Or is this just very good science fiction writing?

It's not good or bad. It's a trope that some parts of a science fiction story are straight up 'things humankind was not meant to know'. Also known as 'not important to the plot'.

What the SFX artist was using to portray the alienness of the objects was the material's smooth, curved seamlessness. Something difficult to achieve in armour in the 50s.There is no way to predict or even guess what such a material might actually look like.

 

[difalcojr]

Well, I thought there may be a little more known to it than that.

Tektites are thought to be from outer space, and they are green.

When I worked in a tungsten mine, one area had the scheelite ore in a green skarn. The rock was so hard that the miners were dulling the carbide bits on their drill steel very quickly. They were always upset they couldn't make any advance in the drift to get any extra bonus pay. Tungsten is a very hard metal and has a very high heat capacity. When a UV light is put on a pile of scheelite at about 1-2% ore grade, it fluoresces bright yellow. Looks like a big pile of gold! Otherwise, it is clear, colorless.

 

[Algr]

Is this a physics/metallurgy/materials sci. question of what would be the color of a theoretical, impenetrable solid such as an alien robot and spaceship?

If the metal is impenetrable, then photons would all bounce off of it. So it would be white, or silvered like a mirror. I have a degree in handwavium!

 

[difalcojr]

Evidently.
So, now I should have to ask the Mentor of this forum this question? Because this is a SF and Media Fantasy forum in an otherwise, non-fictional PF setting, are the laws of physics to be discussed herein, are they limited to real or conjectured physics, or can they be also fictional physics like in the movies and books that they are part of?

 

[difalcojr]

Hmm, looks like Gnut is silent and stationary again on this question too.

Well, then, I'll have to accept that a degree in handwavium is valid in this SF forum, and I won't be so critical from now on of any "scientific" solutions given. Writer's choice as was stated. Was that a PhD you received (Piled high and Deep)? Congratulations, anyway. Do they give a wand instead of a degree at graduation ceremony? Online course?

Heinlein, Clarke, Asimov, etc. were engineers and got their SF as close to conjectered, futuristic, story configuations as they could. More realistic that way. The green surface question is a valid one. As I said, the hardest rock in that hard rock mine was green. No one wanted to work in that area. No money to be made there.

The question should then be properly posted in one of the science forums, not in a SF one, and well, maybe later, perhaps. Back to the movies.

 

[difalcojr]

No. The makeup of robot and spaceship is straight up fantasy.

EMERGENCY ALERT: Gnut is missing! Gone from the spaceship.

He was seen on the edge of town where he ran into the jolly Green Giant, and they got into it. Guess who's now out in the cornfield! Ho, ho, ho.

And Gnut was last seen near the cornfield talking with Anthony!!!

 

[DaveC426913]

Evidently.
So, now I should have to ask the Mentor of this forum this question? Because this is a SF and Media Fantasy forum in an otherwise, non-fictional PF setting, are the laws of physics to be discussed herein, are they limited to real or conjectured physics, or can they be also fictional physics like in the movies and books that they are part of?

Apologies. I did not mean to suggest you can't or shouldn't discuss it.

Its just that, as I see it, there are no laws of physics employed or even implied in the film's technology.

To me, it would be kind of like watching Gandalf's fireworks in the Shire and asking what alchemy ingredients he might have used to make the colours. It's its own discussion really - divorced from the LotR source material.

Just my view though. Carry on.

 

[difalcojr]

No apologies needed. I understand your point. I just had thought I would get a state-of-science update on the materials science knowledge of surface hardness on spacecraft, from a physicist who also loves SF. You all are right, though, and I agree, this is a SF and fantasy media forum. Stick to it. I was in the wrong forum, sorry. I'll stick to discussing movies.

Couple last things, though: Hogwarts now has Gandalf's ingredients lists, teaches them in classes there.
And Gnut is now on the SFBI's most wanted list. His mug shot is around this forum too, somewhere, in case anyone wants to try to get the reward money. Anthony liked him!!

 

[difalcojr]

I always thought that the original story would have worked well as a The Twilight Zone episode.

All I knew was the original movie, but I've now read the Harry Bates "Farewell to the Master", and I reread your post and agree with you. Perfect Twilight Zone material. The ending and Gnut just keep me thinking of the implications of that story. Classic SF!!
Also, just read Jerome Bixby's "It's a Good Life" on your recommendation. Anthony! Scariest SF I've ever read! Poor Billy Mumy the child actor. Probably forced to play Anthony in the "Twilight Zone," and then "Lost in Space" with that neurotic doctor and clunky robot for so long. Have to feel sorry for him.

 

[difalcojr]

That might have been the first sci-fi film I ever saw.

"How did he die, doc?"

"Any one of five ways. His skull was fractured, his chest was crushed, his neck and back were broken, and he had enough formic acid in him to kill 20 men!"

"Them" was on free TV last night! I heard those lines you quoted exact! Fast-paced dialogue, good script and acting, tense throughout. Would've scared me too back when if I'd seen it. It would have been even scarier if Ray Harryhausen had animated the giant ants to move faster and be more realistic.

Lot of actors in it too when they were young. James Whitmore. Fess Parker, went from there to Wyoming, I think, to fight big bears as "Daniel Boone". James Arness, FBI man in the movie, moved up to Dodge City and became federal Marshall Dillon in "Gunsmoke". Think he stayed there so long because he was sweet on Miss Kitty.

 

[renormalize]

Lot of actors in it too when they were young. James Whitmore. Fess Parker, went from there to Wyoming, I think, to fight big bears as "Daniel Boone". James Arness, FBI man in the movie, moved up to Dodge City and became federal Marshall Dillon in "Gunsmoke". Think he stayed there so long because he was sweet on Miss Kitty.

Don't forget a young Leonard Nimoy in a bit part as a staff sergeant:

 

[DaveC426913]

Don't forget a young Leonard Nimoy in a bit part as a staff sergeant:

A common misattribution. That's actually Spock, in a scene that got cut out of "Tomorrow is Yesterday".

 

[difalcojr]

Before he was in Vulcan, I guess. Look at whom he had to report to next: the future Federation Starship Captain himself. How did he get to be captain after being in a mental institution in the Twilight Zone?!

 

[difalcojr]

Here's Gort and Robby the Robot together. Buddies.



Patricia Neal telling Gort what to do in the 1951 movie. Gnut in the short story, Gort in the movie, Klaatu's the man. I'll get it right. Gort was being nice then.



From the 2008 remake. And Keanu Reeves thought the Matrix was strange! Gort goes wild. Bad Gort.

 

[difalcojr]

Don't forget a young Leonard Nimoy in a bit part as a staff sergeant:
View attachment 333229

From a young staff sergeant to a starfleet commander and science officer. He ended up a philantropist too, and left a legacy in the new Nimoy theatre in Los Angeles which just opened. Supposed to have nods to Star Trek throughout. Already booked until next June. Only 200 seats.

https://cap.ucla.edu/ucla-nimoy-theater

https://cap.ucla.edu/calendar

 

[PeroK]

"Them" was on free TV last night! I heard those lines you quoted exact!

They've remained embedded in my memory for nearly 50 years!

 

[pinball1970]

The film on the whole was very good but it did not really scare me as much as a few others. I feel a thread coming on.

 

[gleem]

Get ready for yet another remake of this movie. Chris Pratt has signed on for the leading role of Klaatu.

https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/ent/chris-pratt-day-earth-stood.html

 

[difalcojr]

Hope they stick closer to the original short story, but doubt that this will happen. Green colored, smooth, impervious metal. The original, short story would make an excellent movie, still. With a few modern touches.

 

[difalcojr]

The film on the whole was very good but it did not really scare me as much as a few others. I feel a thread coming on.

Me neither. Not like the others mentioned. Just a little scary. Did get me to thinking of other old, scary SF movies, though, and scary TV episodes, and scary SF short stories, and scary SF books too. Yikes! Lot of good recommendations, links, and funny memories shared here. Educational. Thanks to you and all who've posted.

 

[difalcojr]

Free TV showed original Day... last night. Klaatu's closing message to humanity: let AI keep the peace! Trust in AI. Yikes. Gort, sergeant-at-arms, still looked very big and very formidable, too close to very dangerous for me. Sure, just trust AI. Wonder what the message of the remake will be for the future path of humanity?

Also on free TV was the 1986 remake of invaders from Mars. Not as scary as the original. King Kong and Godzilla originals were kinda scary when young. This one, though, the Harryhausen predecessor to Japan's Godzilla by 16 months, was very scary, I thought, when young and small. Realistic looking.

 

[difalcojr]

Wow, I never noticed all the old movie trailers online before. For thread completion then, here's Them that was earlier discussed. The trailer itself is pretty scary, actually. See what trouble nukes make!

 

[pinball1970]

This model diagram is possible when index0/index1=index1/index2=radius2/radius1 for the model's variables. 30 degree wave into a sphere. Reminded me of something out of that old science fiction movie, The Day the Earth Stood Still.
....................................................................................View attachment 330371

It reminds me of this a little bit

 

[difalcojr]

Where is that from?

 

[pinball1970]

Where is that from?

https://science.nasa.gov/resource/pioneer-plaque/

 

[difalcojr]

From above, "The golden plaque was the brainchild of Carl Sagan who wanted any alien civilization who might encounter the craft to know who made it and how to contact them."

Yeah, those look like good directions, all right. Just follow the arrow. Earth moved out way to the side of Saturn. No wonder they can't find us. And what is that? The monolith from 2001: Space Odyssey? And a thin lens and its focus point with two naked folks in front? Waving? Wow, if I was an alien, I'd say these earthians are pretty hokey and immodest too. A golden plaque? On taxpayer money? Give me the golden fleece instead. Sagan was OK though.

 

[pinball1970]

From above, "The golden plaque was the brainchild of Carl Sagan who wanted any alien civilization who might encounter the craft to know who made it and how to contact them."

Yeah, those look like good directions, all right. Just follow the arrow. Earth moved out way to the side of Saturn. No wonder they can't find us. And what is that? The monolith from 2001: Space Odyssey? And a thin lens and its focus point with two naked folks in front? Waving? Wow, if I was an alien, I'd say these earthians are pretty hokey and immodest too. A golden plaque? On taxpayer money? Give me the golden fleece instead. Sagan was OK though.

The guys can help me out here but a lot of images and languages were put on some sort of record. Who we are, what we do and survive as a species.
Also how we use mathematics but almost in a Rosseta stone sort of way so they can relate to how we formalize counting and operations.
Very symbolic so pictures tell the story too. The aliens would need eyes though, of a sort to see it.
I'll post the link I was looking at this afternoon. All the images are listed.

 

[difalcojr]

That sounds good. I will stay serious, then. Would indeed be interesting to see how Sagan symbolized it and scribed it. Back when. What that point source of light or dumbell at the top means.

 

[pinball1970]

That sounds good. I will stay serious, then. Would indeed be interesting to see how Sagan symbolized it and scribed it. Back when. What that point source of light or dumbell at the top means.

The dumb bell is Hydrogen

Here is some explanation https://www.space.com/34223-voyager-golden-record-space-messages-in-pictures.html

 

[Janus]

From above, "The golden plaque was the brainchild of Carl Sagan who wanted any alien civilization who might encounter the craft to know who made it and how to contact them."

Yeah, those look like good directions, all right. Just follow the arrow. Earth moved out way to the side of Saturn. No wonder they can't find us. And what is that? The monolith from 2001: Space Odyssey? And a thin lens and its focus point with two naked folks in front? Waving? Wow, if I was an alien, I'd say these earthians are pretty hokey and immodest too. A golden plaque? On taxpayer money? Give me the golden fleece instead. Sagan was OK though.

The actual directions to find is in the pattern with the radiating lines. It is a "pulsar" map. Each line represetns a pulsar visible from Earth, with it's relative distance indicated by the length of the line. Each line also has a pattern on it that gives the pulse rate of each pulsar. The point being that there would be only one place where pulsars with those pulse rates would be seen in those relative directions and distances. In addition, since pulsars also have a predictable decay rate of their spin, it also give "when" the probe was launched.
Modesty is relative. That being said, there were people that complained about NASA "sending pornography" into space, I mean "What would the neighbors think?"

 

[difalcojr]

Thanks. Well, they sent it anyway.
Pulsars, huh? Sagan was brilliant, brought astronomy to the everyperson at that time. Popularized it, I remember. Wish the recordings and other pics and diagrams of those NASA records were available online for free perusal. Instead of $99. Think I know most all the animal sounds, though, anyway. Remember vaguely they had a hard time admitting rock and roll music. Chuck Berry song is on the record, I think I remember.

 

[gmax137]

Chuck Berry song is on the record, I think I remember.

I wanted them to put the Stones, "20,000 Light Years From Home" on there, but nobody listens to me.

EDIT: Sorry, it is "2000 Light Years..." I always get this wrong, probably too much Jules Verne as a kid...

 

[difalcojr]

Couldn't agree with you more. More appropriate song, 2,000 light years from home. What's an order of magnitude anyway, when you're as far from home as Voyager? Stones should have campaigned for this song:

 

[DaveC426913]

Where is that from?

This is a smack in the face. As if I don't feel old enough already.

 

[difalcojr]

I wanted them to put the Stones, "20,000 Light Years From Home" on there, but nobody listens to me.

EDIT: Sorry, it is "2000 Light Years..." I always get this wrong, probably too much Jules Verne as a kid...

Or The "Beast from 20,000 Fathoms" at the top of the page.

Could any kid could get too much of Jules Verne? Or H.G. Wells? Or, later ones, Asimov, Bradbury, Clarke, Heinlein, Niven, etc? And then so many others newer than these older ones. SF is the most futuristic and one of the most exciting genres of fiction. Fiction that indeed often comes true. You may not have gotten too much of it, possibly, I think.

 

[DaveC426913]

Could any kid could get too much of Jules Verne?

Kid?

I've got his works on my Kobo eReader right now.

 

[Janus]

Thanks. Well, they sent it anyway.
Pulsars, huh? Sagan was brilliant, brought astronomy to the everyperson at that time. Popularized it, I remember. Wish the recordings and other pics and diagrams of those NASA records were available online for free perusal. Instead of $99. Think I know most all the animal sounds, though, anyway. Remember vaguely they had a hard time admitting rock and roll music. Chuck Berry song is on the record, I think I remember.

I have a book, "Murmurs of Earth" copyright 1978, that is about the golden record. It has all the images sent and lists of both the greetings and music sent. It cost me $7.95 at the time. Chuck Berry's "Johnny B. Goode" was included.
The images on the record cover differ from those on the Pioneer plaques shown above:

It still has the pulsar map, and the "dumbbell" ( a representation of a hydrogen molecule), but the rest of the image are instructions on how to play the record, culminating in what the first image should look like if done right.

 

[difalcojr]

It reminds me of this a little bit

View attachment 334203

Was this diagram from the book too? One of the plaques?

 

[Janus]

Was this diagram from the book too? One of the plaques?

This is what was sent with the Pioneer 10 &11 probes launched in 1972-73. Voyager 1 & 2 were launched in 1977

 

[difalcojr]

This is what was sent with the Pioneer 10 &11 probes launched in 1972-73. Voyager 1 & 2 were launched in 1977

Here's the explanation from online. Explanatory. Pulsar map is pretty amazing.

 

[mpresic3]

Not long after the plaque become publically known, a cartoonist made a cartoon of a man-like person from Jupiter talking to a woman-like person from Jupiter, both of them impeccably dressed and the Jupiter man says, "See the Earthmen are just like us, only they don't wear clothes.

 

[pinball1970]

Here's the explanation from online. Explanatory. Pulsar map is pretty amazing.

View attachment 334466

It's a work of art is it not? A nice combination of very significant information and aesthetics.
IMO.

 

[difalcojr]

Agreed. Looked for the funny cartoon online too but couldn't find it. Did find this article about alternate plaque depictions from the LA Times at that time. And Jack Kirby's plaque depiction. Also a work of art.

https://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/effect/2009/08/28/the-mystery-of-the-two-pioneer-plaques/

 

[Janus]

There was also the Arecibo Message:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message#Arecibo_Answer

Traveling at the speed of light, it has gotten much further than either the Pioneer or Voyager probes. However, seeing as it was aimed at M13, we shouldn't expect an answer back for 50,000 years (give or take a few decades)

 

[gmax137]

There was also the Arecibo Message

Thanks, I do not remember hearing about this. Reading the Wiki description of the message, all I can say is that anyone able to translate/understand the message would likely be considered by the other M31 denizens a crackpot numerologist.

 

[difalcojr]

No, I did not remember, either. Agree with your conjecture.
The Arecibo message is interesting. By Drake again in '74.
https://web.archive.org/web/2008080...ll.edu/releases/Nov99/Arecibo.message.ws.html
Seems silly to me now, though. Aliens had been known to be around long before then, studying us, and probably already knew all that stuff. From the disappearances, abductions and cow murders they're responsible for. The huge radar transmitter seemed the most interesting thing in Arecibo.

And the nutty Arecibo Answer crop circle in 2001.Actually, I did not even know if crop circles were real or fake, but this link shows the excellent UFOoolery by a couple of very clever and talented Englishmen. https://www.livescience.com/26540-crop-circles.html

Here's the Arecibo Answer crop field scene compared to the digital representation:

and a better diagram of the Arecibo message:

"You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time." P.T. Barnum

 

[difalcojr]

This is what was sent with the Pioneer 10 &11 probes launched in 1972-73. Voyager 1 & 2 were launched in 1977

A summary of the messages sent to space, written of, so far. From initial plaque shown by pinball1970.

1972-Pioneer10. 1973-Pioneer11. Both with the first au natural plaque. Then
1974-Arecibo message. Odd music signal from radar transmitter with the message frequency-encoded, I think.
1977-Voyager1 and Voyager2. Now music put on golden record with encrypted instructions on how to play.

Book "Murmurs of Earth" about the Voyager record and other items is available, used, online, 1978 softcover, under $10. Good books hold their value. On order now; you got me curious.

As far as Pioneer10 goes. According to my calculations, and using pinball1970's post#73 diagram above for its trajectory, and using the space scale of this forum page, I have the current location of Pioneer10 as up two posts and very close to the Beast from 20,000 fathoms!

 

[difalcojr]

What are you planning to use it for? spaceship? some kind of weapon?

I did not say before, but I think it is OK now to do so. It is still a science fiction model only.
Never seen before, never made, not in textbooks.

No, not a spaceship, nor was I thinking of a weapon, although the first diagram did remind me of Gort.
The model is an optically "perfect" magnification lens, so it could be weaponized, probably. Hopefully, humans will heed the message soon of Klaatu and Master Gort to stop fighting and killing each other.

It is a very simple model and could have many possibilities as a projection lens. Here's one I was thinking of.
A telescope.

 

[difalcojr]

There was also the Arecibo Message:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message#Arecibo_Answer

Traveling at the speed of light, it has gotten much further than either the Pioneer or Voyager probes. However, seeing as it was aimed at M13, we shouldn't expect an answer back for 50,000 years (give or take a few decades)

And the LAGEOS plaque in 1974 too. Attached to the LAser GEOdynamic Satellite. Of spherical brass set at a very high, stable orbit. Measuring continental drift for the next 8 million years before its decay date! At about an inch of continental drift per century! An inch! How can they measure that?! Plaque shows continents 8 million years ago, today, and 8 million years hence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAGEOS#Time_capsule

 

[renormalize]

Plaque shows continents 8 million years ago, today, and 8 million years hence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAGEOS#Time_capsule

View attachment 335210

Correction: top map shows continents 268 million years ago.