Can Morality Be Considered a Scientific Discipline?

[leopard]

Sam Harris, in The End of Faith, argues that morality is a kind of science. He says that “the fact that people of different times and cultures disagree about ethical questions should not trouble us. It suggests nothing at all about the status of moral truth.”

He continues:

Imagine what it would be like to consult the finest thinkers of antiquity on questions of basic science: “What,” we might ask, “is fire? And how do living systems reproduce themselves? And what are the various lights we see in the night sky?” We would surely encounter a bewildering lack of consensus on these matters. Even though there was no shortage of brilliant minds in the ancient world, they simply lacked the physical and conceptual tools to answer questions of this sort.

Their lack of consensus signified their ignorance of certain physical truths, not that no such truths exist.

Do you agree with Harris? Is morality a kind of science, where we progress and learn as we go? That there are objective moral truths that can be discovered? It certainly does seem morality can be progressive — for instance, woman’s rights and ending slavery was almost unthinkable a few hundred years ago.

If morality is progressive, what do you think the next step will be? An end to war? An end to eating animals? An acceptance of homosexuality? More concern about the environment? An end to religion? Something else?

For example: is it always wrong to stone homosexuals to death, or does it depend on the culture you live in?

Or if you don’t think morality is progressive, why not?

 

[Proton Soup]

the use of the word consensus is interesting. i guess the implication is that our morality is better than theirs. indeed, we are better than they were. heck, we are better than people that still practice those old moralities/religions. we should probably do something about that.

 

[grant9076]

the use of the word consensus is interesting. i guess the implication is that our morality is better than theirs. indeed, we are better than they were. heck, we are better than people that still practice those old moralities/religions. we should probably do something about that.

On the other hand:

Do you believe that the moral values of the Nazis have equal validity as those of the people who opposed the Holocaust?

Do you believe that the moral values of a serial killer or rapist have equal validity as those of people who are against rape or murder?

 

[Proton Soup]

On the other hand:

Do you believe that the moral values of the Nazis have equal validity as those of the people who opposed the Holocaust?

Do you believe that the moral values of a serial killer or rapist have equal validity as those of people who are against rape or murder?

i think those are boring questions. on the other hand:

Do you believe the moral values of the Nazis have equal validity as those of Hebrews in the Old Testament that killed every living thing in the cities they waged war against?

 

[Pythagorean]

On the other hand:

Do you believe that the moral values of the Nazis have equal validity as those of the people who opposed the Holocaust?

Do you believe that the moral values of a serial killer or rapist have equal validity as those of people who are against rape or murder?

sure their values are equally valid (you're assuming their actions match their values in the first place). But even if their actions did match their values, sure, why not? It doesn't mean the majority of society will just stand by because we're the majority and we all agree on our values so we can make sure that those values are enforced.

Other values we're not so agreed upon (abortion, death penalty, and the like) but we'll probably eventually reach a majority opinion based on the benefits and risks to the overall health of societies members, not based on some secret objective rule of behavior (unless of course, my prediction is wrong, and fundamental religious groups end up ruling politics in the future instead of the logic/science approach).

 

[Moridin]

I'm a moral realist and i hold that we can rationally and empirically come to understand what values are valid or not, and whether actions is moral or immoral. Morality hasn't changed over time as much as people think -- the realm of moral consideration has just expanded in some sense. Naturally, a progressive consensus does not stack against moral realism for the above mentioned reasons in the Sam Harris quote, that is, for the same reason that progressive consensus in science doesn't stack against science.

I like some form of the morality expressed in http://www.graveyardofthegods.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5422 . This is pretty hefty, but here is a short version of it.

Sally and Cy: Morality In Action!

I'd like to suggest some preliminary definitions that where mentioned in the above articles.

Fact: Something we know
Value: Something we want to keep
Morality: What we use to figure out how to keep our values by using facts!

A really good book about it is Universally Preferable Behaviour - A Rational Proof of Secular Ethics.

Video sample:

 

[Moridin]

sure their values are equally valid (you're assuming their actions match their values in the first place). But even if their actions did match their values, sure, why not? It doesn't mean the majority of society will just stand by because we're the majority and we all agree on our values so we can make sure that those values are enforced.

Other values we're not so agreed upon (abortion, death penalty, and the like) but we'll probably eventually reach a majority opinion based on the benefits and risks to the overall health of societies members, not based on some secret objective rule of behavior (unless of course, my prediction is wrong, and fundamental religious groups end up ruling politics in the future instead of the logic/science approach).

Claiming that two contradictory values are equally valid is, well, contradictory. Also, any moral statement that is based on bold would be moral realism by definition.

Furthermore, all moral systems based on religion cannot be moral realism by definition, since what is moral is not based on objective reality, but on a deity that in effect can change reality any given time in a very unpredictable manner.

 

[leopard]

we are better than people that still practice those old moralities/religions.

Criticising religion is not allowed.

 

[leopard]

I'm a moral realist and i hold that we can rationally and empirically come to understand what values are valid or not

How?

 

[grant9076]

i think those are boring questions.

True. My questions are very boring. However, they are valid within the context of this thread.

Do you believe the moral values of the Nazis have equal validity as those of Hebrews in the Old Testament that killed every living thing in the cities they waged war against?

In answer to this valid question: Yes. They are both wrong.

 

[seycyrus]

True. My questions are very boring. However, they are valid within the context of this thread.


In answer to this valid question: Yes. They are both wrong.

I commend you for giving a straightforward answer to a question that was obviously only meant to trash a certain culture.

 

[Proton Soup]

Criticising religion is not allowed.

i don't think you understood my statement. it is my belief that your man Sam is making an assault on religion. so, actually, your posting of his quote is criticism of religion if i am correct.

 

[Proton Soup]

True. My questions are very boring. However, they are valid within the context of this thread.

very well. as for your examples, arguments could be made for either. the Nazis were eugenicists. if you want to get all scientific about it, it hard to argue that striving to attain genetic perfection is immoral.

as for rapists, i believe it has been proposed that rape may have an evolutionary basis. and indeed, it's difficult to watch some species mating without coming to the conclusion that rape is normal.

 

[russ_watters]

How?

Via the scientific method.

 

[russ_watters]

Claiming that two contradictory values are equally valid is, well, contradictory.

This is the most obvious reason why moral relativism must be incorrect.

Whenever this subject comes up, I tell people about the morality training I had at the Naval Academy. Besides generic college ethics/philosophy classess where we learned about the different schools of thought and history, we had a series of seminars designed to convince people of the correctness of moral absolutism, though they didn't tell you that up front. The discussions were mostly free-form debate of some of the usual case studies and they had no obvious direction, though we began the seminars with a poll about moral relativism vs absolutism. In the beginning, most people (perhaps 75%) were moral relativists. The main reason given being that it just sounds/seems less arrogant to take that position. After discussion, though, virtually all of these reasonably intelligent people came to the conclusion that morality cannot logically be relative.

This leads me to believe that most people who are moral relativists are moral relativists because thay have not put much logical thought into the question.

 

[grant9076]

very well. as for your examples, arguments could be made for either. the Nazis were eugenicists. if you want to get all scientific about it, it hard to argue that striving to attain genetic perfection is immoral.

Destroying entire populations of humans (based solely on their identity) in order to achieve homogeneity depletes the gene pool (far from perfection) and undermines the greater good for the human species. In addition, this was done in a way that was intended to cause suffering.

as for rapists, i believe it has been proposed that rape may have an evolutionary basis. and indeed, it's difficult to watch some species mating without coming to the conclusion that rape is normal.

It does not benefit the human species and here is why: A big factor in the survival of the following generation is the female’s ability to choose a mate that is most likely to beget survivable offspring. Denying the females that ability (through rape) will undermine this process and likely place the future generation at risk (even if by abortion or abandonment). In addition, this causes long term suffering for the victims.

My conclusion on the morality of these issues still stands.

 

[Proton Soup]

Destroying entire populations of humans (based solely on their identity) in order to achieve homogeneity depletes the gene pool (far from perfection) and undermines the greater good for the human species. In addition, this was done in a way that was intended to cause suffering.

is there a rational basis for avoiding suffering? and suppose we only eliminate the people with genetic diseases? this would cause a bit of suffering in the short term while avoiding a lot of suffering in the long run. or maybe we'd only sterilize them. sterilization would also limit suffering in the short term. don't you think there are genetic diseases for which sterilization is perfectly reasonable?

It does not benefit the human species and here is why: A big factor in the survival of the following generation is the female’s ability to choose a mate that is most likely to beget survivable offspring. Denying the females that ability (through rape) will undermine this process and likely place the future generation at risk (even if by abortion or abandonment). In addition, this causes long term suffering for the victims.

My conclusion on the morality of these issues still stands.

i dunno, it might be the rapist's only chance to pass on his genes, and he gets to choose her. you wouldn't want to deplete the gene pool by denying reproduction to psychopaths to achieve homogeneity.

 

[leopard]

Via the scientific method.

How can you test which moral values/basement is better, in a science lab?

 

[leopard]

if you want to get all scientific about it, it hard to argue that striving to attain genetic perfection is immoral.

From a utilitarian perspective, of course it is.

it's difficult to watch some species mating without coming to the conclusion that rape is normal.

normal \neq moral

 

[leopard]

is there a rational basis for avoiding suffering? /QUOTE]

It's self explaining; the rock bottom of all arguments. You can ask why happiness is better than suffering, but you'll never find the answer, because there is no answer.

Why is it that 1+1=2?

 

[russ_watters]

[partially via pm]

How can you prove moral realism in a science lab?

Moral realism is the philosophical idea that morality is scientific. It's a starting assumption that says 'yes, you can test a moral theory'. What you really mean is 'can you prove moral theories in a science lab?' The answer is yes, you can, and it is an active area of psychology research.

That's a non-sequitur, though, since science does not require a lab.

Isn't moral realism just like any other faith? As far as I can see, there's no way to prove the normative part of any moral system, you can only prove the effects.

What more can we ask of a scientific theory than to accurately predict the effects of an experiment?

 

[russ_watters]

is there a rational basis for avoiding suffering?

It's self explaining; the rock bottom of all arguments. You can ask why happiness is better than suffering, but you'll never find the answer, because there is no answer.

The question Proton Soup asked is a properly worded scientific question. The question you asked is not. The question has a simple answer: Societies based on an individual's right to pursuse happiness function better than those that do not.

You'll probably ask what "function better" means: a society that functions better is one that is better capable of providing the needs and wants of the members of the society.

Please note: the word "better" does not always work in a scientific context and by focusing on it, you are a priori assuming the answer to the debate. You can say one theory functions better than another because it produces results closer to its predictions than another. But you can't say green is better than blue. You're not getting this because you are looking for pure value judgements, when theories need to be nothing more than correct predictions of the outcome of experiments. Try analyzing the subject without using such subjective words an concentrate on predictions and outcomes. For example: Legalizing drugs decreases drug use. It should be obious how this hypothesis/theory can be tested.

 

[Moridin]

This might be somewhat harsh, but isn't moral absolutism just a form of moral relativism?

In this context, I take moral absolutism means that those moral statement that are correct, are correct regardless of time, place and circumstances, that is, regardless of what empirical facts exist. I further take moral relativism to mean that morality is just subjective and in the end arbitrary or even nonexistent because there is, according to moral relativists, no empirical basis for morality. Naturally, i could be completely mistaken here. Perhaps moral realism, in the sense that moral truths are necessarily based on our shared empirical reality, is a better and less confusing, term.

I think that everyone lives their life as moral realists. Imagine you like milk and you have a carton of it at home. One day, you discover that the expiration day has passed. You would probably, and instinctively so, think to yourself something like the following: I ought not drink this milk, because of empirical fact x, empirical fact y and empirical fact z. Hardly anyone would argue that all forms of justification for not drinking bad milk are purely subjective and arbitrary.

Moreover, i would like to argue that all arguments against moral realism must presuppose the truth of moral realism, and therefore automatically self destruct. This is because moral anti-realists are effectively arguing that it is true to claim that moral realism ought to be considered false. That is, they are making a normative moral statement that no normative moral statements exists. It is like claiming that it is true that no truths exists or that all language is meaningless; it simply disproves itself on deployment.

I've found that most objections to moral realism comes from the absolutists of the religious or cultural right who claims that it is their religion, spiritual leader or deity that decides or proclaims that which is morally right or the academic left, mostly as a reaction to the before mentioned group and their own dogmatism about certain ideas.

Naturally, moral realism is incompatible with core leftist doctrines such as the blank slate or the noble savage and with the core rightist idea of divine morality and the ghost in the machine because moral realism suggests that we all have i) the innate means to come to true moral conclusions ii) that some cultures are, in fact, morally better than others and that iii) morality is empirical, rather than supernatural. I am certain that hardcore leftists or rightists reject some or all of these propositions right away.

 

[russ_watters]

This might be somewhat harsh, but isn't moral absolutism just a form of moral relativism?

I don't think it is harsh, just illogical.

In this context, I take moral absolutism means that those moral statement that are correct, are correct regardless of time, place and circumstances, that is, regardless of what empirical facts exist.

No. There is no reason why any theory in morality or science would be purposely constructed to fail to address differing circumstances and facts. Explaining/predicting facts is kinda the whole point of a theory/science.

I further take moral relativism to mean that morality is just subjective and in the end arbitrary or even nonexistent because there is, according to moral relativists, no empirical basis for morality. Naturally, i could be completely mistaken here.

Yes, you are. You are taking the view of moral relativists, assuming it to be true, then applying it to determine if it is true. To a moral relativist, moral absolutism is just one of many moralities and no more correct than any other. But the whole point here is discussing whether they are wrong!

I think that everyone lives their life as moral realists.

That is most definitely untrue. How many times have you heard people say "who are we to tell them what is right and wrong?"? Heck, international politics is dominated largely by the conflict beteween these concepts, in determining whether the international community can intervene in countries to right wrongs.

Moreover, i would like to argue that all arguments against moral realism must presuppose the truth of moral realism, and therefore automatically self destruct.

You argued just the opposite in the beginning of the post! But no, if moral realism is what it says it is, individual theories must be scientific and falsifiable.

If, for example, a country that does not punish murder is able to maintain a functional society, that could falsify the idea that murder is morally wrong.

This is because moral anti-realists are effectively arguing that it is true to claim that moral realism ought to be considered false. That is, they are making a normative moral statement that no normative moral statements exists. It is like claiming that it is true that no truths exists or that all language is meaningless; it simply disproves itself on deployment.

The statement "no normative moral statements exist" is not a normative moral statement. You are confusing a structural basis of the science/philosophy with the philosophy itself. It's like confusing the scientific method with a scientific theory. The scientific method is not a theory.

I've found that most objections to moral realism comes from the absolutists of the religious or cultural right who claims that it is their religion, spiritual leader or deity that decides or proclaims that which is morally right or the academic left, mostly as a reaction to the before mentioned group and their own dogmatism about certain ideas.

You do realize that moral realism is a form of moral absolutism, right? They are on the same side of the discussion here. Because:

Naturally, moral realism is incompatible with...the core rightist idea of divine morality... because moral realism suggests that we all have i) the innate means to come to true moral conclusions ii) that some cultures are, in fact, morally better than others and that iii) morality is empirical, rather than supernatural. I am certain that hardcore leftists or rightists reject some or all of these propositions right away.

I have not seen any descriptions of moral realism that imply that moral realism can't be supernatural. If the moral laws of the universe are woven into the very fabric of the universe just like the laws of physics, doesn't that just mean that God created those too? Put another way, no religious person would claim or agree that the morality handed down to them by God was not the "right" morality or that there could be another objective morality that disagrees with their religious morality. It's like if a scientific theory disagrees with a religious belief, the scientific belief simply must be wrong.

Additionally, why would a religious person who believes God wrote the laws of the universe and provided brians for us to figure them out have a problem with your #1? And certainly virtually all religious people would agree with your #2 (mine is the right one: otherwise, I'd believe yours).

 

[Moridin]

The statement "no normative moral statements exist" is not a normative moral statement. You are confusing a structural basis of the science/philosophy with the philosophy itself. It's like confusing the scientific method with a scientific theory. The scientific method is not a theory.

The statement by itself may indeed not be a normative moral statement, but the moment you put forward the statement in a discussion in an attempt to convince me of its truth, you are in reality claiming that I ought to hold that said statement is correct (why else would you put forward an argument in the first place if not in an attempt to convince me of its correctness?). Of course, it cannot be the case that you think it is your mere opinion that the statement ought to be considered correct, because then your justification for putting forward the argument would then be arbitrary.

Perhaps an example would help me to explain the idea. The moment you try to convince me of something, you must explicitly presuppose that truth ought to be preferable over falsehood. For if it is not the case that truth ought to be preferable over falsehood, the justification for making an argument is again undermined, because holding its negation would be equally justified. If it is instead the case that falsehood ought to be preferable over truth, then you cannot hold that the statement "falsehood ought to be preferable over truth" ought to be considered true, since falsehood ought to be preferable over truth. If it is the case that truth or falsehood is equally preferable, then the statements "falsehood ought to be preferable over truth" and "truth ought to be preferable over falsehood" are equally, which of course is a logical paradox. I see no other option other than the universal truth of the statement that "you ought to prefer truth over falsehood". Naturally, the moment someone attempts to argue against this statement, he or she must implicitly accept it as true (because otherwise your equally justified in holding its negation), therefore undermining all attempts to counter the statement that you ought to prefer truth over falsehood.

If i say that blue is a better color than green, there you have no moral obligation to accept that, since color preferences are almost entirely subjective. However, if i say that the current President elect of the United States is Obama, then you have a moral obligation to accept that statement if it is the case that truth is preferably over falsehood. Now, it cannot be my mere opinion that truth is preferable over falsehood, because arguing that is as rational as arguing that blue is better than green in that you have no moral obligation to accept it. Similarly, if it is not the case that truth ought to be preferable over falsehood, then you have no moral obligation to accept anything and the entire reason or point behind rational argumentation, which i take as convince the person you are discussing with of the truth of your arguments, is undermined.

If the moral relativist claims that no normative moral statements exists, then i would simply respond asking "Why ought i hold that no normative moral statements exists?". The moral relativists would be forced to argue that "you ought to hold that no normative moral statements exists because of fact x, fact y and fact z", which surely by definition would be a normative moral statement?

That is most definitely untrue. How many times have you heard people say "who are we to tell them what is right and wrong?"? Heck, international politics is dominated largely by the conflict beteween these concepts, in determining whether the international community can intervene in countries to right wrongs.

Yes I agree, I made a poorly formulated statement. Let me rephrase. Most people live their personal everyday life as moral realists, because they are forced by reality to take facts into account when making moral decisions about their personal life in various situations. I certainly agree that the utter failure of humanity to understand morality has plagued humanity and led to horrible situations and most likely the murder of millions of people.

I seem to have been expressing myself a bit vague before. You wrote

Yes, you are. You are taking the view of moral relativists, assuming it to be true, then applying it to determine if it is true.

responding to

I further take moral relativism to mean that morality is just subjective and in the end arbitrary or even nonexistent because there is, according to moral relativists, no empirical basis for morality. Naturally, i could be completely mistaken here.

What I mean here is that I could be completely mistaken concerning the definition of moral relativism that i put forward, not about morality having an empirical basis. I do not support or subscribe to moral relativism in any shape or form. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I seem to have expressed myself a bit odd later on in my post as well. What I am arguing is that i) the innate means to come to true moral conclusions and ii) that some cultures are, in fact, morally better than others, are incompatible with the ideas of the far left (blank slate, noble savage) whereas iii) morality is empirical, rather than supernatural is incompatible with the far right (I'll explain why i think this below). Naturally, the right rejects the blank slate (because of original sin, for instance) and the noble savage (since they are not cultural relativists).

The last issue I will address is what I perceive as an incompatibility between moral realism, which I here take to mean the a) notion that morality has an empirical basis that b) morality is contingent on reality and that c) true moral statements can be discovered and supported by various empirical investigations of the natural world, and essentially all forms of supernaturalism. If you can accept this definition of moral realism, we can begin to investigate if this notion is compatible with supernaturalism, which I take to mean that there exists something or someone beyond the natural, material world.

Most supernatural entities are often considered to be both extremely powerful as well as fundamentally unpredictable. They must be extremely powerful, because if they where not, there would not be anything particularly extraordinary about them. If something that is labeled as supernatural could not, for instance, rise above the laws of physics then it would not make much sense to apply such a label. Now, supernatural entities must be fundamentally unpredictable, because if they where predictable, then such investigations would immediately be incorporated into scientific methodology and it would again cease to be supernatural. If you can accept these two attributes as necessary constraints on supernatural entities, we can soon begin to see why supernaturalism and moral realism are incompatible. These two constraints apply to entities such as gods, ghosts, demons, spirits, souls, witches and most other supernatural entities, at least in popular imagination and as I have argued, they must apply to all supernatural entities.

Now, moral realism is based on, and indeed depends on, the fabric of reality. The problem for supernaturalists is of course that they must hold that there exists something extremely powerful and fundamentally unpredictable in addition to the material world. Now these entities thus have the power to change the fabric of reality, and thus morality at any given time, which is fundamentally unpredictable. This would mean that no action could be considered truly moral or immoral. If Bob hits his wife Alice over the head with a baseball bat for no apparently reason, most people would consider that an immoral action. However, what if the facts of reality has the ability to change unpredictably? What if hitting Alice over the head with a baseball bat does not harm her in any way, but puts 1M$ into her bank account? Would the action still be immoral? However, Bob could not predict what the outcome of his action would be, since putting a supernatural entity into the mix makes such estimations invalid, since you have an enormous and unpredictable factor in the form of one or more supernatural entities. Thus, these supernatural entities become Cartesian demons. Even worse, if Bob regularly use to hit Alice with a baseball bat and every time he does it 1M$ is deposited into her bank account, he cannot be sure that the next hit will have the same outcome. After all, it might actually kill Alice. In other words, all forms of induction breaks down the moment you attempt to introduce any form of supernatural entities. Thus, we cannot say that any action is moral or immoral, because the facts of reality are no longer available to us or that they can arbitrarily change at any time.

In summary, the problems with the idea that moral realism is compatible with any form of supernaturalism is that supernatural entities would be Cartesian demons and that induction would be completely invalid. Coincidentally, the same sort of argument can be made in favor of the position that science, or for that matter organized knowledge of any form, is incompatible with all forms of supernaturalism. The atomic theory of matter might represent a valid approximation to reality today, but if Casper the Ghost exists and can arbitrary and unpredictably manipulate reality according to his whims, surely we cannot hold the atomic theory of matter in the same regard as we did before? For materialists or naturalists who hold that predictable matter, that is, matter acting according with its identity, is all that exists would not have such a problem.

If mass shootings lead to economic stability instead of mass deaths, would the genocides in Darfur be immoral? If you cannot know whether or not the conservation of energy is valid at this precise moment (Casper would have altered it just a second ago), how can one hold that a free lunch is impossible?

 

[dx]

If, for example, a country that does not punish murder is able to maintain a functional society, that could falsify the idea that murder is morally wrong

That makes no sense at all. A country full of moral relativists would still punish murder.

 

[Moridin]

That makes no sense at all. A country full of moral relativists would still punish murder.

With what justification? If morality is nothing than a mere social construct, then punishing murderers are just as insane and unjustifiable as punishing people who like egg for breakfast. Maybe not quite, since you can still punish murderers as a preventative measure even if morality was a social construct, rather than dealing rewards and punishment according with some objective law. They would not so much punish murderers as keeping them away from the general population.

 

[dx]

With what justification? If morality is nothing than a mere social construct, then punishing murderers are just as insane and unjustifiable as punishing people who like egg for breakfast. Maybe not quite, since you can still punish murderers as a preventative measure even if morality was a social construct, rather than dealing rewards and punishment according with some objective law. They would not so much punish murderers as keeping them away from the general population.

No country makes laws using morality. It's always about what the majority wants. If the majority of people don't want to have murderers around, they punish murderers. For example, I believe that killing a human is no more "wrong" than killing a chicken. But that doesn't mean I want to live in a place where I have to constantly be afraid of being murdered; yet I have no problem if chickens are killed because it doesn't cause me any inconvenience. It's about what people want, and what is convenient.

 

[russ_watters]

The statement by itself may indeed not be a normative moral statement, but the moment you put forward the statement in a discussion in an attempt to convince me of its truth, you are in reality claiming that I ought to hold that said statement is correct (why else would you put forward an argument in the first place if not in an attempt to convince me of its correctness?).

That's the way scientific method works. You build a theory or hypothesis based on the assumption that it is true, then you test it to see if it really is.

It is also the way logic works. You start with an assumption, then apply logic to find out where that assumption leads. If the assumption leads to a nonsensical conclusion or a conclusion that is at odds with reality, then the assumption is flawed.

If i say that blue is a better color than green, there you have no moral obligation to accept that, since color preferences are almost entirely subjective. However, if i say that the current President elect of the United States is Obama, then you have a moral obligation to accept that statement if it is the case that truth is preferably over falsehood. Now, it cannot be my mere opinion that truth is preferable over falsehood, because arguing that is as rational as arguing that blue is better than green in that you have no moral obligation to accept it. Similarly, if it is not the case that truth ought to be preferable over falsehood, then you have no moral obligation to accept anything and the entire reason or point behind rational argumentation, which i take as convince the person you are discussing with of the truth of your arguments, is undermined.

Which is why in order to properly word a moral statement for scientific/logical study, you must refrain from using purely subjective wording. It isn't difficult to take a seemingly completely subjective moral statement and rework it into something objective. For example:

Smoking is bad.

Without further explanation, the word "bad" would appear ot be perfectly subjective, just like "blue is bad". But you can easily modify it to be more explanatory and eliminate the need for such subjectivity. "Blue" doesn't cause cancer: smoking is "bad" because it causes cancer.

Yes I agree, I made a poorly formulated statement. Let me rephrase. Most people live their personal everyday life as moral realists, because they are forced by reality to take facts into account when making moral decisions about their personal life in various situations. I certainly agree that the utter failure of humanity to understand morality has plagued humanity and led to horrible situations and most likely the murder of millions of people.

Who says that seeing the same facts twice in a row, the same person will make the same decision again? Have you never seen someone who is generally rational act irrationally before? You have dealt with women, right?

iii) morality is empirical, rather than supernatural...

...is two separate statements, put together and assumed by you to be mutually exclusive. They are not.

Most supernatural entities are often considered to be both extremely powerful as well as fundamentally unpredictable.

Really? Can you give an example? I don't consider myself to be all that religious, but I would consider from what I learned about Christianity from 10 years of Sunday School that God is extremely predictable. Heck, if God was very unpredictable, science wouldn't work!

If something that is labeled as supernatural could not, for instance, rise above the laws of physics then it would not make much sense to apply such a label. Now, supernatural entities must be fundamentally unpredictable, because if they where predictable, then such investigations would immediately be incorporated into scientific methodology and it would again cease to be supernatural. If you can accept these two attributes as necessary constraints on supernatural entities, we can soon begin to see why supernaturalism and moral realism are incompatible.

You're missing two really simple and critical things:

1. Just because a god can constantly intervene and randomly change things, that doesn't mean they will.
2. The evidence suggests that if, in fact, God exists, he is not unpredictable. If he were (like I said before), science would not work. Every successful scientific experiment is confirmation of the theory that God - if he exists - is predictable.

If mass shootings lead to economic stability instead of mass deaths, would the genocides in Darfur be immoral?

No. And that's exactly the point. Just like any other theory, in Darfur, we are currently testing the theory that unpunished mass murder leads to economic ruin and instability.

 

[russ_watters]

That makes no sense at all. A country full of moral relativists would still punish murder.

Whether in real life a country of moral relativists would or would not punish muder is irrelevant to what I said in that argument. However, according to moral relativism, it is necessary for us to accept that such a country could exist and would be morally right. Just because most moral relativists agree that murder should be punished, that doesn't mean that all do or must. Remember, there have been cannabalistic societies in the past and there are societies today that are essentially lawless (ie, the Darfur example).

This is, however, one of the flaws with moral relativism. Taken to it's full logical extreme, for moral relativism to exist on a personal level, no individual could tell any other individual what is right and wrong. As a result, you would have no basis for punishing a murderer. Now most moral relativists do accept a single standard of morality - at least for big issues in morality - at a national level. But that still leaves the logically inconsistent view of having de facto moral absolutism on a national level but moral relativism on the international level.

 

[russ_watters]

No country makes laws using morality. It's always about what the majority wants.

You're wrong on several levels.

1. Not all countries are democracies, obviously, so "what the majority wants" is not always relevant.
2. Most people in the world live in countries where the laws are explicitly based on a religious-based morality. And that includes the United States. The Declaration of Independence discusses that philosophy (a philosophy on which the morality of the US was based) and you can read about it in many court cases. In outlawing Polygamy, for example, in Reynolds v. United States, the USSC traced the history of the definition of marriage back to King James, who, of course, is a pretty famous biblical scholar/philosopher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._United_States

If the majority of people don't want to have murderers around, they punish murderers.

Why don't the people of Somalia try that with the warlords who kill people at will and with no consequences? And, of course, you can also find examples where the majority of people don't just want murderers around, they want to be murderers (directly or indirectly). See: Nazi Germany and Rwanda.

For example, I believe that killing a human is no more "wrong" than killing a chicken. But that doesn't mean I want to live in a place where I have to constantly be afraid of being murdered...

You should feel lucky you have that choice. That's a relatively new thing for people - and even today, not all people have it.

These questions are leading us off topic, though: these are some basic history and political science misunderstandings, not issues of morality specifically. There is a vast amount of political theory and history out there that supports this that you really should look into. I don't know how old you are, but these are subjects generally covered in school.

 

[Moridin]

...is two separate statements, put together and assumed by you to be mutually exclusive. They are not.

I would like to argue that they are, in fact, mutually exclusive. If morality is empirical, that means that the facts of the material world is enough to come to true moral conclusions. If morality is supernatural, that would mean that the material world is not enough to come to true moral conclusions.

Really? Can you give an example? I don't consider myself to be all that religious, but I would consider from what I learned about Christianity from 10 years of Sunday School that God is extremely predictable. Heck, if God was very unpredictable, science wouldn't work! (my bold)

To claim that gods are predictable would entail knowing the mind of the gods in question. According to most theistic belief systems, this is not possible. There are many passages in various religious texts that support the notion that an extremely powerful god has the power to do fundamentally unpredictable actions. For instance, in Joshua 10:12-13, we read that the Abramahic god made the sun and moon stand still on the sky. In the wedding in Canaan, Jesus turns water into win. In the latter part of the Gospels, Jesus arises from the dead. Humans are created by dust or a clot of blood according to the Qur'an. There are plenty of actions in contemporary religious scripture that confirms that gods have the power to do fundamentally unpredictable things, including, but not limited to, changing the laws of physics according to their whims without the need to warn us.

I think that the statement i bold above is very interesting. I would like to argue that not only is supernaturalism incompatible with morality, but with all of science because supernatural entities are by their very nature unpredictable. So in order to hold morality, and to an extension science, as valid, we cannot also hold that unpredictable supernatural entities also exist, because one could not be sure that they would not interfere.

If a measurement apparatus gives, say, the reading 10.9, then how would we know that it wasnt really 11.9 if we allow unpredictable supernatural entities into the equation?

1. Just because a god can constantly intervene and randomly change things, that doesn't mean they will.
2. The evidence suggests that if, in fact, God exists, he is not unpredictable. If he were (like I said before), science would not work. Every successful scientific experiment is confirmation of the theory that God - if he exists - is predictable.

The first point is a non sequitur -- as long as you cannot be sure that supernatural entities do not intervene and randomly change things, you cannot be justified in holding that the regularity of the facts of reality as valid. If you do not know, or do not have any information on whether or not your computer will break down during the next hour, are you justified in thinking that you can order food on your computer in 20 minutes? I would argue no.

Moreover, i would like to argue that every successful scientific experiment is a confirmation that reality is not fundamentally unpredictable and therefore disqualifies all moral theories that have any supernatural component. Naturally, a deist perspective would in some sense still be compatible with empirical morality, because deists presuppose that their supernatural component does not or cannot intervene at all, thereby saving themselves from the fundamental unpredictability of other supernatural belief systems that includes supernatural entities with the ability to change reality.

 

[Moridin]

I would hardly say that the laws of the United States explicitly based on a religious-based morality. Not only due to the separation of state and church, but because a lot of laws are in direct contradiction with religious-based morality of, for instance, the Old Testament. You can work on the sabbath, you won't be stoned to death if you break any of the six hundred or so explicit commands in the text. Murder is allowed in self defense. The wars of this millennium has shows that you do not always love your neighbor as yourself. Naturally, most of the moral gems we have left today predated the religions active today.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

That's the way scientific method works. You build a theory or hypothesis based on the assumption that it is true, then you test it to see if it really is.

It is also the way logic works. You start with an assumption, then apply logic to find out where that assumption leads. If the assumption leads to a nonsensical conclusion or a conclusion that is at odds with reality, then the assumption is flawed.

In moral realism how do you propose we determine what conclusions are preferable? We may be capable of running "experiments" that determine the out come of using a certain set of ethical values but how do you come to a conclusion as to whether the outcome is preferable or not without applying subjective value to it?

I would like to argue that they are, in fact, mutually exclusive. If morality is empirical, that means that the facts of the material world is enough to come to true moral conclusions. If morality is supernatural, that would mean that the material world is not enough to come to true moral conclusions.

Perhaps Russ is making a mistake in his wording here.
Supernatural by definition means "above/outside nature". I think what Russ means is that not all religions and theists believe that their god is outside of nature and that your defining their beliefs as such is leading you to improper conclusions.
Of course we can argue scripture and such but that takes us dangerously close to violation of forum rules and so we should probably avoid this topic.

 

[DavidIg]

Is morality a kind of science, where we progress and learn as we go? That there are objective moral truths that can be discovered??

Yes, I do think that morality is scientific in that it rests upon both logic and application, IOW, the real world is our proving ground so to speak, however, the fact remains that ethics are a contractual agreement between 2 or more people, and revolve around our basic individual rights of life, liberty and the right to property etc, of course, if one plays either role in a master/slave relationship, then by definition, the contract has been dissolved and one or more people are being controlled by others.

So there are two major parts to ethics...p1 are the terms, and p2 is the agreement to these terms, because one can't be forced to abide by anything in the absence of an authority, unless one's own conscience is the authority.

 

[DavidIg]

Why is it that 1+1=2?

Beacuse that's what reality dictates.

 

[Hurkyl]

Beacuse that's what reality dictates.

Reality plays no part. 1+1=2 because that's what '2' means.

 

[Proton Soup]

Yes, I do think that morality is scientific in that it rests upon both logic and application, IOW, the real world is our proving ground so to speak, however, the fact remains that ethics are a contractual agreement between 2 or more people, and revolve around our basic individual rights of life, liberty and the right to property etc,

so does morality not apply to people that do not wish to engage in contracts? and for those that disagree, is morality defined by what a simple majority deems moral?

of course, if one plays either role in a master/slave relationship, then by definition, the contract has been dissolved and one or more people are being controlled by others.

it's not really control if you agreed to it, simply a contract obligation. and other relationships that don't have the same terminology are similar. just think of all the rights you give up as an employee, the kinds of surveillance you subject yourself to, the privacy you give away.

besides, master/slave relationships might not be at all what they appear to an outsider? how would you know whether the submissive is actually topping from the bottom?

So there are two major parts to ethics...p1 are the terms, and p2 is the agreement to these terms, because one can't be forced to abide by anything in the absence of an authority, unless one's own conscience is the authority.

all that matters is whether the other monkeys in your troop think your behavior is fair, and how they respond to it.

 

[DavidIg]

Reality plays no part. 1+1=2 because that's what '2' means.

Please define "one" for me.

 

[DavidIg]

so does morality not apply to people that do not wish to engage in contracts? and for those that disagree, is morality defined by what a simple majority deems moral?

Neither logic, philosophy or DavidIg can force people to act in an ethical manner sans external authority, however, one places oneself at risk for being unethical, as such, the safest bet is to be ethical in the first place, granted one needs an "objective" system of ethics to abide by.

all that matters is whether the other monkeys in your troop think your behavior is fair, and how they respond to it.

Yes, if all you care about is submission to irrational authority.
...you'd make a great politician.

 

[Hurkyl]

Please define "one" for me.

The most common definition is probably in the context of Peano arithmetic: "the natural number after zero". And technically, two is usually defined as "the natural number after one", but that works out to the same thing as 1+1.

"What is 'zero'?", I assume you'll ask. In the context of Peano arithmetic, that one is much easier: it's the number we decided to call 'zero'.

 

[DavidIg]

The most common definition is probably in the context of Peano arithmetic: "the natural number after zero"

But what is the basis of this natural number?

 

[Proton Soup]

Yes, if all you care about is submission to irrational authority.
...you'd make a great politician.

maybe. i have a dead relative who was a rather infamous practitioner of the art.

still, if the monkeys' moral system helps ensure their survival, maybe it is an objective morality.

 

[DavidIg]

still, if the monkeys' moral system helps ensure their survival, maybe it is an objective morality.

Objective wrt to ethics implies both a reference point/s to reality and also the notion of not discriminating against anyone, otherwise it would have to be subjective ethics.

Our survival depends upon our reason and ethical codes.

You seem to hold the view that what the lowest common denominator think should determine our ethical/social systems...of course, to some degree that's what's actually happening, LOL.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Neither logic, philosophy or DavidIg can force people to act in an ethical manner sans external authority, however, one places oneself at risk for being unethical, as such, the safest bet is to be ethical in the first place, granted one needs an "objective" system of ethics to abide by.

How do you find an "objective" system of ethics?

I agree that ethics can be studied in an objective manner and formulae for ethical actions in a given situation can be objectively arrived at. The values and desired outcome though, I believe, are subjective.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Objective wrt to ethics implies both a reference point/s to reality and also the notion of not discriminating against anyone, otherwise it would have to be subjective ethics.

What makes the portion of your quote I have bolded "objective"?

 

[DavidIg]

What makes the portion of your quote I have bolded "objective"?

I believe one of the implications of being objective is to eliminate bias...ie, journo's try and be objective.

 

[DavidIg]

How do you find an "objective" system of ethics?

I agree that ethics can be studied in an objective manner and formulae for ethical actions in a given situation can be objectively arrived at. The values and desired outcome though, I believe, are subjective.

You base your ethics on the reality of the human condition, ie, we are geared to survive, however, without the use of reason and an objective ethical system, we're at each others mercy.

The basics of an objective system of ethics are individual rights such as the right to life, liberty and property...if you disagree, then give me your details and I'll come over, rob you and do a "Dexter" on you as well...unless you also care for your life, liberty and property.

Also, one person cannot possibly develop the entire system of objective ethics, as many of the major fields of science are required, so it's a team effort, and theoretically what we have now minus the corruption and scientific ignorance.

The most important aspect is to recognize that individual rights apply, and that you value them, especially as they would ensure your protection even if you were isolated and vulnerable.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I believe one of the implications of being objective is to eliminate bias...ie, journo's try and be objective.

Ok. Discrimintation I believe is key in objectivity. One must discriminate between variables to reach the most desirable outcome. I assume then that bias is what you originally meant, and I agree that discrimination without bias is key in objectivity. I only wished to clear that up so I understand you right.
I will have to disagree with you though if you believe that bias is avoidable in analyzing an ethical quandry. All persons place differing values upon things. Aside from ones own bias, in considering an ethical problem, one must also determine the bias of the other actors and account for them in the analysis.

The basics of an objective system of ethics are individual rights such as the right to life, liberty and property...if you disagree, then give me your details and I'll come over, rob you and do a "Dexter" on you as well...unless you also care for your life, liberty and property.

It is difficult to respond to these criminal/'serial killer' type arguements against moral relativism. Primarily because it is invoking what might better be referred to as 'moral whimsy'. Moral relativism bases ethical analysis on historical context, culture, and circumstance; not "what I feel like doing right now". So if we can keep the "Dexter" argument out of this that would be preferable, thank you.

As far as Life, Liberty, and Property go I have seen no evidence in any ethical system that these are fundamental rights as any or all of them may be stripped from you under the proper circumstances. Those circumstances of course differ from one system to the next depending on the values of the culture.

I'd like to say more but I need to get going.

 

[DavidIg]

My Dexter analogy is way too powerful to be ignored or shelved...it quickly proves that you and all sane people value your life, liberty and property otherwise you'd take me up on my offer...but you won't, nor will anyone ever do it unless they have a genuine deathwish.

Give me an example of a legitimate long-term withdrawal of the individual rights, starting with the right to life, and in this instance, the withdrawal need only last a few seconds to be devastating to the individual.