Can someone be 'not good at math'?

[mrspudgun]

OK SO ...

I've always thought myself as 'not very good' at math. I always get B's or C's in stem courses.

I've completed calc I-III, and university physics 1-2, chem 1-2 under that notion and achieving those grades at my university.

I just spoke to a group of people that were taking calc I for the -third- time (IE failing it twice in a row). Now I'm beginning to question whether I'm really 'bad' at math at all and considering that I've just been conducting psychological warfare upon myself all these years.

I thought that B's and C's basically meant 'you can't do math' but apparently there are people that are actually THAT bad, ie they don't get anything right and literally can't do it.

Hmm, I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Are there really people who 'can't do' math in a literal sense, and this is what makes them choose careers/majors outside of stem (at the very least, they are so debilitated mathematically that it is incredibly hard for them to make anything higher than D/F)? Or is everyone just psychologically screwing themselves?

 

[Simon Bridge]

Welcome to PF;
It is possible to be "not good at math" but those B's and C's don't really mean much.
I never got more than a B+ in my life and I made it through grad school physics.

You are doing the right thing by comparing your capabilities with others taking the path you are headed down - and also the right thing by not comparing yourself with the top group. The trick is to concentrate on learning.

However: yes, there are people who just cannot do math.
It is usually considered a learning disorder (or a consequence of one) and, in extreme circumstances, can involve physical brain damage.

 

[mrspudgun]

Thanks for the response and words of encouragement.

I'll try to keep learning my primary focus as I continue with my education (it seems obvious when stated like that, but it's not always obvious in the day-to-day).

 

[lisab]

For me, I'm OK at math...if I have enough time for it to soak in. By exam time, no I'm not good yet. But six-or-so months later? I can hold my own.

 

[soothsayer]

mrspudgun,

If you're getting B's and C's, you're doing fine. I got those grades all throughout college in my math courses and ended up graduating. I even got a D in one of my multivariable classes and had to retake it. If you just stick with it, it'll eventually click, and you'll find math to be a lot easier. At least, that's what happened with me.

Good luck!

 

[Group_Complex]

The degree of math talent is something you are born with, you can't break past a certain level, as long as you are not planning on being a mathematician or theoretical physicist you should be fine.

 

[SrVishi]

OP, I completely understand your situation to a certain degree. I am not learning your level of mathematics yet, but I understand how people could think that they are just not good at math. I hated and despised mathematics due to my severe lack of abilities. My peers and previous teachers used to think that I had a learning disability or that I was just plain dumb. I didn't understand division until the 8th grade nor the idea of multiplying and adding fractions until 10th for Pete's sake! One day I decided that enough was enough, so I went and relearned math from the very beginning and paid attention to EVERY little detail. I not only tried to know how to manipulate equations and engage in all sorts of operations, I tried to understand WHY these things were allowed to happen and when to use them. I owe this a lot to books I picked up in the library that explained things to people like you and me. Sometimes textbooks and professors are just not the best way for us to learn. Sometimes it takes the "addition is like counting apples" approach (obviously were talking about much more complex ideas here though) to understand a concept and that is fine. Sometimes we really need a simple and related analogy for something to "click". My best advice for you is to go to your local library and find these types of books or even videos online if you haven't already. There was even one book (the title of which I do not remember) that is completely dedicated to teaching the reader on how to understand textbooks themselves (in terms of their often complicated and/or vague explanations). Never give up op!

 

[ModusPwnd]

Yes, I think somebody can be bad at math. Humans are diverse and there are individuals that are naturally good and naturally bad at anything.

I'm bad at math, but I kind of like it. I compensated for lack of ability by spending lots of time studying and taking an enormous amount of math classes. After years of study, I'm still bad at math... But I did slog through it for some reason.

 

[Choppy]

I always like to think of questions like this in terms of an athletic analogy. Take, for example, marathon running.

Within a given population the innate ability for running a marathon will naturally vary. Some people will naturally excel at it. Others won't be able to get past the first kilometre. But you're not necessarily stuck with your innate ability. One major factor will be the conditions under which you grew up. If your parents smoked around you, your performance may not be so great. If you were fed a poor diet and lived in front of the television... again, not so great for running marathons. But if you grew up having to run five kilometres to get to school every day, barefoot, through the sand... you'd be a little better at it.

And then there's the training effect. I'm never going to win an Olympic medal in marathon running. But a few years ago I ran several half marathons, my best time coming in just under two hours, because my wife and I trained for them.

All of this applies, in my opinion, to intellectual pursuits as well, such as the study of mathematics, or physics, or anything really.

Yes, some people are just not going to "get" calculus. In fact a lot of people just don't "get" basic algebra. And while I believe it's possible for them to eventually gain an understanding of such things, the effort required could be substantial... in some cases too substantial to really bother with, particularly if they have other strengths.

Getting a particular grade in a subject is only a minor reflection of how well one understands the material and how effectively one can use it. If you get a B in a math course it doesn't mean that you can't understand the material any more than running a marathon in four hours and fifteen minutes means you can't compete in marathons. If you intend on running, the Boston Marathon, you will for example have to train harder to perform better, similar if you want to go to graduate school for math.

But you do have to make an intelligent assessment of yourself. How much effort will it take for me to see the kind of performances I want? Am I willing to put in the time? Will I be able to accept that the effort to performance ratio will be different for other people?

 

[soothsayer]

The degree of math talent is something you are born with, you can't break past a certain level, as long as you are not planning on being a mathematician or theoretical physicist you should be fine.

Somewhat agree. Yeah, if you're not born with natural talent for math and a high level of intelligence, you're not going to be able to solve quantum gravity, or win a Fields medal. But I believe most people are perfectly capable of working towards a level of mathematical understanding far above what they believe themselves to be capable of, with enough practice and education. Too many people swear up and down that they can't do math in any capacity, and then never try to do it.

 

[reenmachine]

Some people aren't very good at mathematics or anything logical.

In fact , there's so many of them that ''being bad at math'' is almost becoming a popular point of pride.

In society it isn't shameful to suck at math.It's actually a pretty weird phenomenom when you think about it.

 

[soothsayer]

Some people aren't very good at mathematics or anything logical.

In fact , there's so many of them that ''being bad at math'' is almost becoming a popular point of pride.

Actually, I believe it's the opposite. At least in American schools, "being bad at math" is such a point of pride, that students are pressured away from mathematical sciences from the start. Nobody puts effort into math, because it's not cool to be good at math. Kids go into school expecting to be bad at math and hate it, because that's what the culture teaches. Most students really don't even give it a chance, or put any considerable effort into it, because they feel they have that sort of predetermined inclination against from mathematics that everyone else does.

 

[WannabeNewton]

The degree of math talent is something you are born with, you can't break past a certain level, as long as you are not planning on being a mathematician or theoretical physicist you should be fine.

Looks like all my aspirations to be a set theorist are now down the drain. Woe is me.

 

[micromass]

The degree of math talent is something you are born with, you can't break past a certain level, as long as you are not planning on being a mathematician or theoretical physicist you should be fine.

This is of course completely wrong. It is my personal opinion and experience that everybody is able to understand advanced mathematics and physics, given enough time. True, some people may struggle harder than others, but eventually those people do get there.

I've seen quite a lot of geniuses who understand math immediately, but who failed grad school because they didn't work hard enough. On the other side, I know enough people who really struggled through their undergrad but whose hard work paid off. If you ask me what the most important quality is in a mathematician then it is hard work and patience. Why patience? It happens a lot of times that you don't understand something on the exam, but 6 months later you consider it to be easy. Basically, you've grown and learned more. It's certainly not true that you're stuck in one place all the time and don't move forwards. You always move forwards, although sometimes it goes very slow.

Learning math is like watching a river flow. Sometimes you have very fast waterfalls. Other times you are stuck in a lake and you don't see to advancing. But eventually, you do get to the sea.

 

[soothsayer]

Exactly. I don't know if you'd be able to be the next Einstein without the IQ required, but mathematician or theoretical physicist certainly shouldn't be beyond anyone's reach.

 

[reenmachine]

Actually, I believe it's the opposite. At least in American schools, "being bad at math" is such a point of pride, that students are pressured away from mathematical sciences from the start. Nobody puts effort into math, because it's not cool to be good at math. Kids go into school expecting to be bad at math and hate it, because that's what the culture teaches. Most students really don't even give it a chance, or put any considerable effort into it, because they feel they have that sort of predetermined inclination against from mathematics that everyone else does.

Come on , I wonder when we're going to stop victimizing everybody.It's highly possible that once a mathematically talented student reach the age of 15-16 years old he starts to receive peer pressure to ''be cool'' and ''drink alcohol and try to score chicks'' , therefore wasting his mathematical potential , but this particular student will more often than not have shown good mathematical potential between the age of 4 and 14 , and he probably already knows that he is good at math.

I'm far , far from convinced any ''culture'' will make a mathematically gifted person unaware of his above average talent.He might hide it or never use it , but not knowing it exist? Hard to believe.

 

[reenmachine]

This is of course completely wrong. It is my personal opinion and experience that everybody is able to understand advanced mathematics and physics, given enough time. True, some people may struggle harder than others, but eventually those people do get there.

I've seen quite a lot of geniuses who understand math immediately, but who failed grad school because they didn't work hard enough. On the other side, I know enough people who really struggled through their undergrad but whose hard work paid off. If you ask me what the most important quality is in a mathematician then it is hard work and patience. Why patience? It happens a lot of times that you don't understand something on the exam, but 6 months later you consider it to be easy. Basically, you've grown and learned more. It's certainly not true that you're stuck in one place all the time and don't move forwards. You always move forwards, although sometimes it goes very slow.

Learning math is like watching a river flow. Sometimes you have very fast waterfalls. Other times you are stuck in a lake and you don't see to advancing. But eventually, you do get to the sea.

I guess this comes down to accomplishment vs raw talent.If the system is making the ''geniuses'' drop out because they didn't teach them hard work previously then thought they should learn on the job , in the end it's the human race loss.If a ''genius'' works as hard as the other guy the odds are in favor of the ''genius'' producing better mathematical work.

 

[soothsayer]

Come on , I wonder when we're going to stop victimizing everybody.It's highly possible that once a mathematically talented student reach the age of 15-16 years old he starts to receive peer pressure to ''be cool'' and ''drink alcohol and try to score chicks'' , therefore wasting his mathematical potential , but this particular student will more often than not have shown good mathematical potential between the age of 4 and 14 , and he probably already knows that he is good at math.

I'm far , far from convinced any ''culture'' will make a mathematically gifted person unaware of his above average talent.He might hide it or never use it , but not knowing it exist? Hard to believe.

No no no, I'm not talking about student who are exceptionally gifted in math, I'm talking about the average student.

For example, I was pretty average at math throughout my high school career. My parents actually told me once that Calculus was the most difficult subject in the world, and I got the sense that only geniuses could ever really learn it. I was passionate about space from a young age, and wanted to do astronomy/astrophysics, but having seen my grades and my struggles with math throughout high school, my mom once tried to persuade me to take an alternate career path, but I stuck with it and eventually got pretty good. All I'm trying to say is that math is more accessible to the average student than they typically realize.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Exactly. I don't know if you'd be able to be the next Einstein without the IQ required, but mathematician or theoretical physicist certainly shouldn't be beyond anyone's reach.

It shouldn't, but it is. Taken to the extreme you are asserting that the person with the lowest IQ on the planet could be a mathematician. That is of course flat out not true. Some people have trouble just understanding basic numbers. Some people need constant training and supervision just to wash dishes or sort recyclables. Certainly a large amount of people could never be a mathematician no matter how much time and energy gets invested in them.

 

[H2Bro]

There is in fact a disorder that is the numeracy equivalent of dyslexia, and it can get bad enough to make it hard to say for sure that the square root of 5 is less than 2 or that 3! is smaller than 20. So there is definitely this natural ability at work.

However, this "good at math" or "bad at math" stuff comes from school and the standardized progression schedule of math learning. Some kids pick up math super quick, some don't, but they all work within the curriculum. If some kids pick it up slow in grade school they learn to say "well I'm just not a "math" guy" and then invest their energy in other talents, so that small initial difference in ability translates over time into a compounded and substantial difference in mathematical ability at, say, uni level.

 

[soothsayer]

It shouldn't, but it is. Taken to the extreme you are asserting that the person with the lowest IQ on the planet could be a mathematician. That is of course flat out not true. Some people have trouble just understanding basic numbers. Some people need constant training and supervision just to wash dishes or sort recyclables. Certainly a large amount of people could never be a mathematician no matter how much time and energy gets invested in them.

That goes without saying. There are always going to be outliers: people who truly just can't handle math, for one reason or another, but what others are saying is that you have to be born with mathematical inclination to get anywhere with it, and that there are many reasonably intelligent and hard-working people that will never be able to learn math in any advanced capacity, because they just weren't born with it, and I think that's totally false.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Well, you were the one claiming anyone can do it! A good way to quickly check a claim is to consider the limiting cases.

There is a big difference between claiming that anyone can do it vs reasonably intelligent people can do it. The latter is certainly less than half the population, right?

 

[Lavabug]

I was bad at math in middle and high school, at least "bad" in the sense that I lagged behind most math courses even compared to the people that went on to college for humanities degrees. I was very phobic of math in general.

This changed a few years after high school and I went to university originally for chemistry, then switched to study physics. I'm sure a lot of my former peers wouldn't have imagined I'd make it this far (graduating this year) into a mathematically intensive field, and my best grades and depth of understanding tend to be in math courses or mathematically-intensive physics courses like statistical mechanics, QM, and GR.

You just can't expect to make the leap in math skill, knowledge and understanding overnight. It comes with time and a lot of effort. There is no way someone is going to understand tensor calculus or the residues theorem in any meaningful way if they don't have a lot of previous experience in more elementary subjects to draw on...

Whether one has the ability to produce something of research paper quality is an entirely different subject from academic performance altogether. You can have perfect grades and pick a dead-end research focus that doesn't click with you for some reason or another.

Barring some diagnosable mental disability, I think anyone can learn enough to complete an undergraduate curriculum given enough time. Whether that's a practical endeavor financially is another question altogether, but I don't believe anyone who has seen and understands Pythagoras' theorem has some magical mental block that impedes them to go on to understand vector geometry, the limit definition of a derivative, complex numbers, vector calculus, and everything that follows or draws upon experience with it. Sometimes this has to be done at the expense of rigor in my experience, but that can be fixed later with more rigorous iterations.

 

[soothsayer]

Well, you were the one claiming anyone can do it! A good way to quickly check a claim is to consider the limiting cases.

There is a big difference between claiming that anyone can do it vs reasonably intelligent people can do it. The latter is certainly less than half the population, right?

You and I have different opinions about what "reasonably intelligent" is...I was kind of thinking of, like, 70% of the population.

There are always limiting cases, but this entire discussion is just generalizations. The simple point that I wanted to make is that MOST people think that they're just "bad" at math, and don't believe they can ever be good at it, and so they never try, and avoid math at any cost. I fully believe that a majority of these people can become good at math if they just work at it.

Of course, if a student finds that he/she is simply naturally talented in another area, there's really no need push them towards more and more advanced math courses, but my whole point is that people should not feel limited by what they are and are not good at--it doesn't mean you can't get a lot better at it. If I were to let being bad at something stop me, there are a lot of things I wouldn't be today.

Now you're going to say, "Sooth, you really think 70% of people could be mathematicians or physicists?" Hell, why not? I got my degree in Astrophysics, and I really don't think I'm as intelligent as people automatically assume I am. Realize, though, that just because someone has the mental capability to understand difficult mathematical ideas, doesn't mean they'll ever have enough interest in it to work hard enough to grasp them.

 

[Fluxthroughme]

My own small bit of input:

There are people who can't do math, but it's not quite that simple. I am pretty sure it's down, hugely, to your upbringing. I have seen a LOT of people who can't do basic maths, and if I try and help them, it's not directly because they don't get the material, but it's because they can't get it because they don't get stuff that you need in order to get the more difficult stuff. For example, I have seen my sister struggle with understanding manipulation of fractions. After I tried teaching her, it became clear that she didn't really 'get multiplication', so of course she's not going to understanding how to manipulate fractions - it was just more complicated multiplication! Similarly, I have seen people struggle with trigonometry because they don't get basic algebra, and I have seen people struggle with calculus because they don't get stuff (It gets a lot more varied as the topic becomes more complex).

My point in this is that I have NEVER sat down with someone, and discovered they don't 'get' something because of the topic in question - it has always been, in my experience, because they don't understand a lower level topic which is required for them to see it a certain way. Of course, if you can't see something in the right way, you don't understand it. Note, just my experience, so it's not worth anything, statistically.

So essentially, I am 100% sure (Whether warranted or not) that the only people who are bad at math, are bad because of how they were taught (Or rather, how they weren't. This includes anything self-teaching, mind). I'm doing fine in my math classes now, well into multivariable calculus, for example, yet there was a time I couldn't understand why x - 1 = 2 'rearranges' to x = 3. I kinda knew how to do it, but I was focusing on what my teacher told me to do: "Move it over" she said, and I just didn't get what she meant. However, one day, I decide to just ignore her, and think about it for myself, and I ignored "Move it over" because I was having preconceptions about what it meant. Soon after I did that, I got exactly what she meant, and it became obvious. Perhaps if she'd have shown me x - 1 + 1 = 2 + 1, I would have understood right away what she meant by "Move it over", or perhaps my own view of the way the math works doesn't translate to "Move it over". The point being, had I never 'got' that one part of math, I would have never really knew how to do basic algebra, and I could then never do trig, and it would have got worse and worse, but it in no way meant I was bad at maths; it just meant I had a very foundational misconception/misunderstanding that ought to have been solved before moving on.

 

[Devia Anguis]

Hello, this is my first post and I actually do have a reason for resurrecting this topic. That is because I have THE answer. It was stated earlier that certain cultures, in the USA especially, are raised with the belief, or through peer pressure, are indoctrinated into the belief that they are bad at math, math is not cool, getting chicks and drugs is better etc. It was also mentioned that a person who may be below reasonably average intelligence or who has learning disability will just not get math. I am the perfect test subject. A little background first. I am the offspring of two persons of average average intellect who both dropped out of high school in or before 10th grade. They always thought and led me to believe at one time that getting "C"s and barely passing was good. My entire school career was filled with low class and very poor public schools with bad teachers and 40+ students per class room, sometimes without desks or even chairs for them all. These kids were the type more concerned about selling drugs and acting like gang bangers then getting an education. Needles to say I had a hard time not getting picked on or always being disrupted. I would also ask questions and the teacher would explain the problem to me repeatedly to me and it still would not click. I failed Algebra I 2 times and Geometry twice as well. I never passed Algebra 2 before getting expelled and saying screw it and getting my GED. My percentile score was 68 percent for the state of Texas for that year. So if I scored better then 67 percent of GED takers for that year that should show you how LOW the standards were. The worst part is that I passed my TAAS test in 10th grade with a good score. TAAS is (or was) the exit level high school test required for graduation in Texas.

I bring all this up because I am currently working on my B.S in comp science. And I have the computer classes, humanities, English comp, etc first and I have yet to take a single math class out of fear. Anyway, with my history and my education and what I believe to be a learning disorder, if I can go from my current level of not even remembering Algebra I, to at least passing a calculus class then I think most anyone can. barring very low IQ or mentally handicapped.

This of course is all my way of asking for some links to sites or videos that can refresh my memory of High school math starting with maybe even pre algebra stuff. Trust me I am eager to begin my experiment. I am 27 BTW and been out of school for over 10 years. Double wammy my SAT results have me slated for a remedial course but I want to get a jump on it before the spring term.

Also, if someone does read this and knows a link but does not post it because it is too basic or explains adding fractions or something, don't worry about insulting my intelligence. Trust me, won't be an issue...

 

[Dembadon]

Some people synthesize abstract concepts more quickly than others. Does this mean they will automatically make it further or do better than someone who is slower? No, it doesn't. Natural ability certainly helps, but will not be sufficient by itself. Hard work, determination, and resilience have been larger factors in the success of the students I've been tutoring for the past couple years.

 

[yungman]

I know I'll get flagged on this but.....

It all depends on what college you are in. If you are in MIT, Stanford etc., A "B" means a whole lot more as they are hard B's. BUT if you are in some no name state U or junior/community colleges, that is a totally different story. I've been to two junior/community colleges( two years), grading system were a joke, their standard were so low. They gave you every chance to get an A and a lot of students got A's. B's is just you "passed".

Even in good colleges, they try very hard not to fail you. In my days, they split Cal I and II into 4 classes 3units each. I was not studying, skipping classes. I was in U of Santa Clara and U of San Francisco, both private universities. I still got C in the first two semesters. I learned almost NOTHING! I buttoned down and got an A in the third semester on definite integral and some methods on integration. That was all the math I had until the last 10 years. I had to restudied from page 1 of the calculus book, a lot of the material was just new to me, there goes to show how much I missed AND I still got a "C" in Santa Clara! Standard of Santa Clara was very high, still they passed me.

The only other class I took was ODE in Mission College...a community college but still an accredited junior college. That was really a joke compare to USF and Santa Clara. You get to choose the best 3 out of 4 tests in the semester, homework counts for almost one test. All you have to do is hand in some scribbles as they don't even read it. I was lucky the original instructor was on leave and the dept. Head of deptment had to fill in. He was harder as the other professor use MULTIPLE CHOICE in the test! Multiple choice for ODE class??! In the 15 questions, there will be one question like "Who is the first president of United State?" I am DEAD SERIOUS, it was on the test that she gave.

I since studied PDE and EM on my own. I communicated with professors of both EM and PDE classes of San Jose State University, I got their syllabus and homework problem sets. Funny when I asked the professor of PDE whether they cover everything in the syllabus, he said "Well...it depends on the class. If student can follow and we have time, I'll cover this!" USF is not consider a good university, professors never "see" whether students can follow or not. They finish the syllabus and if you don't get it, that's your problem! I ended up studied PDE and EM on my own. I worked through every problem they assigned and more, I cover more and deeper into the chapters. In the PDE class, they only spend 2 weeks on Bessels function and Legendre function. That to me, is half the material of PDE! That was the hardest part compare to all the separation of variables, Fourier transform etc. I notice they skip the difficult problems in Bessel and Legendre in their homework. The book used in the EM class is by Ulaby, that's about the easiest book you can find in EM. It is barely an introduction to EM. I know they only use this book as I look at the homework problems. They don't go out of the book. I end up had to study two other real books on EM. In my area, SJ State, Stanford and Santa Clara are the only choice for me. I am retired, it's not worth paying a lot of money to go to Stanford and Santa Clara to take the classes as cross word puzzles. S J State is not worth going. So I study on my own. I was from Hong Kong long time ago and I went to high school there. Standard was so much higher than here. I only finished grade 11 there. I first went to Santa Clara, it was ok. Then I transfer to USF...big mistake! I really thought USF was a joke at the time. I didn't even have to study hard and still got A's in chemistry. It's not until the second semester of the second year that I had to study hard. I always thought USF was a joke until I started taking some classes in those junior colleges, no wonder people still consider USF is a decent college!

No, I don't think it's ok to get a C. Unless you are in a very good college, B is a passing grade, C is you barely creep through and they don't want to fail you to make the school looks better.
Now a days, education system in United State has the philosophy that "there is no failure"! As long as you demonstrate effort, then you deserve a passing grade. That is just wrong. You can all get together and console each other, but in the cold cruel world, you'll be eaten alive. I worked in the high tech industry, majority of the PHDs, scientists, EE and software engineers are foreigners...mostly from China and India. Look at the video lecture of MIT, how many professors are born and bread in United State? I was a manager of EE for 12 years, every time I posted a engineer or even technician job open, I got tons of resumes. Majority are Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians( from India) and some Philippinos, most/all are foreigners not born here. Students here got eaten alive in the real world. Then the sickening thing is, people make it into politics that companies hire foreigners because they are cheaper. As a hiring manager, I can tell you, the resumes are all foreigners, you can't even find much of native ( American born) candidates. Don't believe me, go look in the Silicon Valley, the engineering is like an international melting pot. And people wonder why the education system in US failed!

 

[IGU]

This of course is all my way of asking for some links to sites or videos that can refresh my memory of High school math starting with maybe even pre algebra stuff.

I think you want to use Khan Academy to figure out what you remember and what you don't. It's simple, free, and can be done with little overhead. Plus it covers all the areas of math that might be questionable for you.

 

[celestasia]

I think math is like any other science subject. Yes, there are people that will never understand physics or biology. There are some people that are geniuses when it comes to physics and biology, and there are many people that just need to find some motivation and work at it. Do I think there is a certain intelligence that mathematics requires? Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. Do I think people who can't do math are stupid? No, not necessarily. From the grades of the original poster, I would recommend more practice. One should take full advantage of all their options when it comes to math. Office hours should be visited and et cetera. I think this idea that everyone can do higher level math may be a bit wrong. Not everyone can be an artist, for example. Some people can paint, draw, and sculpt others cannot. Still, others can take lessons and learn to be proficient and painting, drawing, and sculpting.

 

[A David]

As both a math student and teacher, I find that when people are "bad at math" it means that they have a poor grasp on the fundamentals, usually because they didn't learn what they should have in middle school and high school algebra. They all like geometry, because its intuitive, but they all hate proofs, because they require rigidity. Without a good foundation in algebra, calculus is pretty much impossible, which is probably what's going on with your third-timer friends.

 

[yungman]

There are people that cannot do math. I had seen people can't even add if they count their fingers. Let's don't pretend everyone can do it. Not everyone can be in sports no matter how hard they try. Not everyone can play music because they can't even tell whether they are off key. This is life, people need to learn to be objective and move on to something they are good at.

Yes math is an acquired skill, not everyone can get it naturally. You need time to learn to be good. But after a few failed tries, you really should reevaluate the situation.

 

[Dembadon]

There are people that cannot do math. I had seen people can't even add if they count their fingers. Let's don't pretend everyone can do it. Not everyone can be in sports no matter how hard they try. Not everyone can play music because they can't even tell whether they are off key. This is life, people need to learn to be objective and move on to something they are good at.

Yes math is an acquired skill, not everyone can get it naturally. You need time to learn to be good. But after a few failed tries, you really should reevaluate the situation.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting someone with a severe mental handicap (not being able to add with fingers) will be able to go far in math. The context of the OP's post requires a more colloquial definition for good and bad. I think we can agree that if someone is getting B's and C's in university Calculus and Physics, then they don't have to consider changing their career based on a fear of "not being good" at math.

 

[yungman]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting someone with a severe mental handicap (not being able to add with fingers) will be able to go far in math. The context of the OP's post requires a more colloquial definition for good and bad. I think we can agree that if someone is getting B's and C's in university Calculus and Physics, then they don't have to consider changing their career based on a fear of "not being good" at math.

I am more response to the idea that if people are not good in math, that's because they missed the basics of math in HS. I am not referring to OP here.

But I don't think getting a C in math and Physics is good enough as I talked in detail in my former post. Now I am not talking about intelligence here. You either work to improve and make it up, or else...

 

[johnqwertyful]

"I don't get how anyone could be bad at math or cooking. It's just following directions. If you say you're bad at math or cooking, you just can't follow directions"

-Paraphrase from friend

Of course not ALL math, but really all lower division is just following directions and maybe a little bit of ingenuity, depending on your teacher.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Many people can't follow directions. And many people are bad at cooking, as well as math.

 

[symbolipoint]

Beyond the Special Education, discalculia, neurological differences conditions, everyone can follow directions and improve at "MATH", even if it means frequent intense guidance. On the more advanced ranges, people run upagainst their limitations at which "following directions" is not good enough, but being very analytical, creative, or clever, and willingness for spending a much longer effort become necessary. Caclulus X too hard the first time through? Review something and try for credit again. Usually the result is better learning and better grade.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Sure, if you exclude everybody who is bad at math you can easily claim that everyone can do math. What use is that? And also, of course everybody can "improve" at math, whatever that means. That doesn't change the fact that some people are not good at math.

 

[symbolipoint]

I wonder, how much of "Good At Math" is a matter of just studying and try to learn BEFORE you really need to use the stuff, and whether a person finds subjects or activities which make use of applicable mathematical topics and skills? I wonder if some people become "Not Good At Math" because they actively try to avoid any use of Math and any extra effort at preparatory study of it? I wonder how commonly do people who are "Not Good At Math" struggle in some Mathematics courses, find it confusing and not earn high grades, and from there-on, try very hard to stay away from any or all Mathematics, and never restudy again what they studied only one time?

 

[symbolipoint]

Sure, if you exclude everybody who is bad at math you can easily claim that everyone can do math. What use is that? And also, of course everybody can "improve" at math, whatever that means. That doesn't change the fact that some people are not good at math.

This just gives us two basic kinds of people. One kind is the neurologically different type which the Special Education professionals try to help; and the other kind, most of the rest of people, who either will do well on their own or who can use coaching."two kinds"... Of course there are variations in between.

 

[yungman]

I believe there are people that is just not good in math. But most are just lack of effort. I put a lot of my thinking in post #28. I believe it's the attitude of the students or maybe even the attitude of their parents in United States, that education is not that important. Particularly in the 50s, 60s and even the 70s, you really don't need a good education to make a decent living. So if you want to drop out, it's no big deal.

But in the last 10 years, things change, now people has to compete with the rest of the world. After WWII, the rest of the world was pretty much got blown apart, we were the only one that was all intact. What ever we built, people buy. Now, the rest of the world long recovered, they have plenty of capability of producing goods. Look at the attitude of people towards the Japanese Cars in the 70s. They laugh at the Japanese cars being tin cans and junk. What happened? We got our butt kicked since the 80s. They are much more reliable, much safer... Then the Hyundai from Korea in the 90s that was a joke, now they are every bit as good if not better as the American cars and cheaper. Now the Chinese cars.....We loss the entertainment electronics PERIOD! Since when we see a stereo, tv, recorders made in USA? We were stupid enough to outsource our high tech production to China, India etc. This is coming back to bite our behind right about now.

Do you know how hard students study in the other countries? People look at education as a ticket to prosperity. I remember when I was in Hong Kong, we had a general exam after grade 11 ( form 5). Every year, there were students jumping off the building because they failed or pass with only E's. This is how serious people in other countries about education.

Now, the education system here glorifies effort, not result ( grades), that it's ok as long as you try, you show the steps. You get spared even if you don't get the correct answer. That it's ok to get a C. We are slaughtered by the foreign workers in this country. Open your eyes and look at the make up of the work force in the high tech industry! And we celebrate a C! Yes, our cars score a B and C, is this the pride of America now?

 

[maverickmonk]

Yes. Absolutely. I am a senior physics major, and I am no good at math. Specifically algebra. I took algebra 1 three times in high school. Barely passed algebra 2, and failed calculus because I'd always mess up the algebra. I am however very good at geometry, and I love how by using a few simple rules you can solve any problem if you break it down enough. I also love the abstract part of calculus. Our high school calculus class went over the delta epsilon relation, although our teacher said we would not understand it, and it made perfect sense to me. The next class I failed an exam because I kept messing up my limit problems. Fast forward to college, and linear algebra makes no sense to me, but with some work (and now with a formula sheet because it's been a few semesters) I actually enjoy differential equations. Being "good" at math is actually a mix of many different mental abilities, each with varying amounts of innate understanding. Even if you're lacking in one or more areas however, it can still be done. Being "good at math" can sill be achieved by relying on your strengths and using them to overcome your weaknesses.

 

[Chronos]

I was terrible at math until I could actually apply it to something. I had to drop my first college calculus class because it was completely alien to me. In fact, I thought the textbook was written by aliens. Once I got into physics, math was easy as pi.

 

[masseffected]

I never thought I would be into mathematics, let alone physics. I had okay grades in math my whole middle school life. I always thought I was going to pursue my talent as an artist. But after failing (literally receiving an F) algebra 2 during my sophomore year of High school, I had a sense of anger and being stubborn I re-enrolled into algebra 2 along with pre-calculus my junior year. I ended up getting a B in algebra and an A- in pre-calculus. Senior year I signed up for AP Calculus and Trigonometry. I ended up graduating with 3.8 GPA and Honors. Ever since then, I have had an "itch" to understand everything science related. On my own time I browse science journals and look up free lectures on YouTube. I am a tutor for local high school students in Physics Kinematics... Me!? I failed algebra just a few years earlier and I am helping others learn. But, I am horrible with fractions, ratios and even percentages. So I think that people can have their strong suits and their weakness also... just because your math is weak in one area does not mean that overall you are "bad" at math.