Can The Human Body Be Expressed Mathematically?

[davgonz90]

I have a question: can the human body be expressed mathematically? If so, how would you even go about starting to map out the algorithmic structure of something that's living (which would include molecular function, cellular function, etc. etc.)?

 

[TheAustrian]

Know the Hamiltonian for every single atom, and every single interaction possible for atoms which are close enough to interact with each other.

 

[davgonz90]

Do you think that it would be possible to create algorithmic-based diseases (like polio for example) and place it within an algorithmic-based person to see how they react with one another? Sort of like performing algorithmic-based clinical trials?

 

[TheAustrian]

We don't have the computing power in the world to even attempt.

 

[UltrafastPED]

I have a question: can the human body be expressed mathematically? If so, how would you even go about starting to map out the algorithmic structure of something that's living (which would include molecular function, cellular function, etc. etc.)?

Start with something smaller - like nematodes. They are the simplest life form with a central nervous system.

Then see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2276866
and http://imammb.oxfordjournals.org/content/4/4/279.short

Use Google Scholar and type "mathematical model of nematode"; there has been lots of work done in this area. You can even earn your PhD by doing more research in this area.

 

[interhacker]

Use Google Scholar and type "mathematical model of nematode"; there has been lots of work done in this area. You can even earn your PhD by doing more research in this area.

What general field is this type of research categorized in? Applied Math? Mathematical Biology? Theoretical Physics?

 

[ZapperZ]

Replace "human body" with "sheep", and you have Max Tegmark's view on this:



Zz.

 

[PSIX]

Human body is the one of the complexiest things of the universe. If you can do it, you can create almost everything.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I have a question: can the human body be expressed mathematically? If so, how would you even go about starting to map out the algorithmic structure of something that's living (which would include molecular function, cellular function, etc. etc.)?

In principle yes it's possible, mathematical modelling in biology is a field that is getting better all the time but the size of the task is daunting. There is so much to model in a human body and for many practical applications you couldn't simplify these very much. Take the example of simulating the effect of a drug in a cell, you're going to have to model every molecule in there as accurately as possible in order to figure out the interactions that drug is going to have and the knock on effects that will create. Considering we can't even model how proteins fold that doesn't seem like something that is on the horizon.

 

[AlephZero]

Replace "human body" with "sheep", and you have Max Tegmark's view on this:

Sheep farmers knew this already

 

[AlephZero]

Start with something smaller - like nematodes. They are the simplest life form with a central nervous system.
...
You can even earn your PhD by doing more research in this area.

But you probably won't get a Nobel Prize, since that has been awarded already for figuring out how nematodes develop. http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2002/press.html

Incidentally, that shows you don't need lots of high-tech lab equipment to win a Nobel prize. Sulston figured out most of what was going on by looking at live nematode embryos through an optical microscope.

 

[lendav_rott]

My body's formula is this:

(n-1)/0 , where n is only 1.

 

[davgonz90]

Okay, so it seems that this much more complex than I originally thought :P

Last night for fun I tried messing around with the idea on paper by writing a few simple formulas for being alive, etc.

What are some super-fundamental ideas that someone could use to even get started on something like this? I'm not new to molecular biology or biochemistry, but writing out formulas or algorithms to express certain things is very confusing.

For example, how I could I write a super-simplified version of "flowing blood" (even if it's only say, 10 cells)?

Body = 10 Cells x Rate of Movement Over a Give Space??

 

[Strilanc]

You might find it useful to read about simulating rigid body physics for games.

Rigid bodies are way WAY simpler than a real human body, or a single cell, or even a single protein... but knowing how to simulate rigid bodies will give you a lot of the background ideas that you need.

 

[DennisN]

Okay, so it seems that this much more complex than I originally thought :P

But fun, eh?

Last night for fun I tried messing around with the idea on paper by writing a few simple formulas for being alive, etc.

What are some super-fundamental ideas that someone could use to even get started on something like this? I'm not new to molecular biology or biochemistry, but writing out formulas or algorithms to express certain things is very confusing.

I think this task is very, very difficult . And since it requires biology/chemistry, I personally wouldn't even know where to start. To get a feel for the scale involved, you could try calculating an estimation of how many atoms there are in a human body. Or google for it.

 

[davgonz90]

You might find it useful to read about simulating rigid body physics for games.

Rigid bodies are way WAY simpler than a real human body, or a single cell, or even a single protein... but knowing how to simulate rigid bodies will give you a lot of the background ideas that you need.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out!

 

[davgonz90]

But fun, eh?


I think this task is very, very difficult . And since it requires biology/chemistry, I personally wouldn't even know where to start. To get a feel for the scale involved, you could try calculating an estimation of how many atoms there are in a human body. Or google for it.

It would make sense to start off with the smallest building blocks of the human body I guess- and then work your way up? I'll give it a wishful try :)

 

[adjacent]

It would make sense to start off with the smallest building blocks of the human body I guess- and then work your way up? I'll give it a wishful try :)

You first have to understand how they work, before building a model of them. We still have MANY undiscovered mysteries about life.

 

[DennisN]

It would make sense to start off with the smallest building blocks of the human body I guess- and then work your way up? I'll give it a wishful try :)

As I said, I wouldn't even know where to start, if I ever would try playing around with trying to model such a thing. But nevertheless I would start by checking up some basic facts like

• how many atoms are there in a human body
• how many types of atoms
• how many molecules
• how many types of molecules
• how many cells
• how many types of cells
• etc.
• + other things I didn't know anything about, but learned about when I was checking things up

Why I suggested counting atoms was because it would give you a feel about the scale of such a very ambitious (to say the least) project. So if you find a number of estimated atoms in a human body, post it here, and I will then tell you something else, which I guess you don't have even considered yet .

 

[Evo]

The human body is unpredictable in how it reacts to things.

 

[ZombieFeynman]

The human body is unpredictable in how it reacts to things.

This statement is so ill-defined as to be trivial. What "things"? How unpredictable? What do you mean by react, what sort of response are you talking about? Subsystems of the body or the body as a whole?

 

[Evo]

This statement is so ill-defined as to be trivial. What "things"? How unpredictable? What do you mean by react, what sort of response are you talking about? Subsystems of the body or the body as a whole?

So, I am a liar and the human body is completely predictable. You seem to always want to contradict everything I say.

 

[ZombieFeynman]

So, I am a liar and the human body is completely predictable. You seem to always want to contradict everything I say.

I certainly think your original statement understates recent advances in biophysics and complexity theory, among other disciplines. Don't take it personally, perhaps ~5 of my 260+ posts have ever been addressed to you. A forum is a place for discourse, even if the discussion stems from disagreement. Surely addressing some of the questions in my post would have added more value to the conversation than offering a snarky rescindment and a personal accusation.

 

[Evo]

My comment was simply a friendly reminder that the human body is unpredictable. The OP had questioned "performing algorithmic-based clinical trials".

 

[edward]

My comment was simply a friendly reminder that the human body is unpredictable. The OP had questioned "performing algorithmic-based clinical trials".

Your comment was 100% correct. To go deeper into the unpredictable aspects of the human body would be futile on this forum. It would require a different thread for each system of the human body and yet another for the body as a whole.

We can discuss it. We have only begun to touch upon the intricacy of the bodies multiple systems and their multiple interactions.

I can't cut and paste from a PDF, but the word unpredictable first appears in the second paragraph.

http://physics.oregonstate.edu/~stetza/ph407H/Chaos.pdf

http://glimmerveen.nl/le/chaos.html

The complexity and ,yes, unpredictability of the human body are well beyond algorithmic-based clinical trials.

 

[ZombieFeynman]

Your comment was 100% correct. To go deeper into the unpredictable aspects of the human body would be futile on this forum. It would require a different thread for each system of the human body and yet another for the body as a whole.

We can discuss it. We have only begun to touch upon the intricacy of the bodies multiple systems and their multiple interactions.

I can't cut and paste from a PDF, but the word unpredictable first appears in the second paragraph.

http://physics.oregonstate.edu/~stetza/ph407H/Chaos.pdf

http://glimmerveen.nl/le/chaos.html

The complexity and ,yes, unpredictability of the human body are well beyond algorithmic-based clinical trials.

So now we're citing term papers from a college course titled Life, the Universe and Everything: Physics and Metaphysics? I thought we had a higher standards of what qualifies as a reference here at PF...

Are there elements of inherent unpredictability in human biology? Of course. That was not my point. But scientists are able to predict human height from DNA with substantial accuracy. Hundreds of genetic tests are now available and are able to predict with variable certainty childhood onset of specific genetic diseases.

The OP was asking about clinical, algorithmic trials. We are indeed a long way off from these. But my understanding is that recent work in molecular biology has done much to yield predictability of protein structures directly from the genome. Is it difficult? Yes. Is there much work to be done? Of course. But this makes it exciting!

From a less reductionist sort of view, substantial work is being done mathematically modeling the immune system. Is it complex? Yes. Chaotic? Sure. But this does not mean it is completely unassailable!

To say the human body is unpredictable is sort of a vaguely true statement that I think adds little to the discussion. Moreover, I was not suggesting that the human body was wholly predictable, only suggesting that it is not wholly unpredictable.

 

[SteamKing]

Human body is the one of the complexiest things of the universe. If you can do it, you can create almost everything.

'Complexiest'?

 

[edward]

So now we're citing term papers from a college course titled Life, the Universe and Everything: Physics and Metaphysics? I thought we had a higher standards of what qualifies as a reference here at PF...

Don't look now, but this is the General Discussion forum. BTW Crystal Ives is now Dr. Crystal Ives MD and has been published in a number of journals.

The second link you apparently did not read.

 

[ZombieFeynman]

Don't look now, but this is the General Discussion forum. BTW Crystal Ives is now Dr. Crystal Ives MD and has been published in a number of journals.

The second link you apparently did not read.

The second link, while superficial, at least sheds light on the sort of unpredictability found in human biology. It is undoubtably of more use than any simple remark on unpredictability on its own right.

Edit: I did not intend on derailing the topic, only to prompt clarification.

To the OP, perhaps you'd like to explore Cellular Automata or Conway's Game of Life. You might also want to hear more about the field of Artificial Life in general. A book you may want to eventually check out is The Computational Beauty of Nature.

For certain, these are a long way off from deterministic simulations of the whole human body (by a long shot!), but perhaps they are a start. Maybe even someday, someone asking questions like yours may extend these studies further.

 

[collinsmark]

Consider a perfectly spherical human, ...

 

[ZombieFeynman]

Consider a perfectly spherical human, ...

With only conservative forces!

 

[lisab]

Consider a perfectly spherical human, ...

...of uniform density...

 

[DennisN]

...of uniform density...

...floating in the vacuum of space...

 

[Curious3141]

Consider a perfectly spherical human, ...

I am very proud to say that I am as close to that ideal of perfection as humanly possible.

 

[Evo]

The second link, while superficial, at least sheds light on the sort of unpredictability found in human biology. It is undoubtably of more use than any simple remark on unpredictability on its own right.

Edit: I did not intend on derailing the topic, only to prompt clarification.

To the OP, perhaps you'd like to explore Cellular Automata or Conway's Game of Life. You might also want to hear more about the field of Artificial Life in general. A book you may want to eventually check out is The Computational Beauty of Nature.

For certain, these are a long way off from deterministic simulations of the whole human body (by a long shot!), but perhaps they are a start. Maybe even someday, someone asking questions like yours may extend these studies further.

ZF, my comment was a reminder that there are too many variables in the real human body. How one person responds to bacteria, virus, parasites, etc... is uncountable, and any drugs that would combat these can be affected by many unpredictable occurrences. It would be impossible for me to try to list and I am sure that you know that, we don't even know what issues may arise. So, no, reminding the OP how unpredictable the human body is is not *unimportant*. It's something they need to consider.

 

[delete]

I have a question: can the human body be expressed mathematically? If so, how would you even go about starting to map out the algorithmic structure of something that's living (which would include molecular function, cellular function, etc. etc.)?

What would want to express? And in how much detail? Taking into account each particle is beyond reason, but a crude approximation for some purposes may be x=vt where x is your center of mass and v is your walking speed. In practice, you only use the level of detail you need.