Can Time-Invariant Force Laws Accurately Predict Orbits?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the implications of time-invariant force laws, specifically Newton's law of gravity and Coulomb's law, in predicting orbits. Participants explore the mathematical assumptions underlying these laws and their applicability in time-varying situations, as well as the relationship between classical and modern theories of gravitation and electromagnetism.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question where the assumption of time invariance becomes mathematically explicit in Newton's law of gravity, noting the absence of a time parameter.
  • It is suggested that the lack of time dependence in both Newton's law and Coulomb's law leads to implications about the nature of forces in time-varying situations.
  • A hypothetical scenario is presented where a charged particle or gravitating mass appears suddenly, raising questions about the applicability of these laws in such contexts.
  • Some participants assert that Maxwell's laws and general relativity provide necessary frameworks for understanding time dependence in electricity, magnetism, and gravitation.
  • There is a claim that the more general equations do not reduce exactly to the classical equations in time-invariant situations, citing differences in predictions between Newtonian gravity and general relativity, particularly regarding Mercury's orbit.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of time invariance in force laws. While some agree on the absence of time dependence in classical laws, others highlight the differences in predictions made by general relativity compared to Newtonian mechanics, indicating unresolved debates on the accuracy of these models in various contexts.

Contextual Notes

The discussion touches on limitations regarding the assumptions made in classical physics and the conditions under which these laws apply. There is an acknowledgment of unresolved mathematical steps and the need for a deeper understanding of time-dependent scenarios.

Amin2014
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In other words, where does this assumption become mathematically explicit? Is it because there is no parameter representing time in Newton's universal law of gravity?

If so, what about other force laws like Coulomb's law for charges? I don't see any time embedded in that.
 
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Amin2014 said:
Is it because there is no parameter representing time in Newton's universal law of gravity?
Yes, the law of gravity itself says nothing about a delay. And that's how it must be interpreted to get elliptical orbits.
 
Amin2014 said:
In other words, where does this assumption become mathematically explicit? Is it because there is no parameter representing time in Newton's universal law of gravity

If so, what about other force laws like Coulomb's law for charges? I don't see any time embedded in that.

Yes, the assumption is in the way that ##r## appears in Newton's law with no time dependence, and yes, the same is true of Coulomb's law. Imagine that a charged particle or a gravitating mass were to suddenly appear anywhere in the universe at time ##T## - if we take those two laws at face value, there would be a non-zero force everywhere in the universe at any time after ##T##. That doesn't make a lot of sense, so instead of taking them at face value we accept that they don't apply in time-varying situations.

Maxwell's laws, discovered in 1861, supplied the necessary understanding of time dependence for electricity and magnetism. General relativity, a half-century later, did the same for gravitation.
 
Nugatory said:
Yes, the assumption is in the way that ##r## appears in Newton's law with no time dependence, and yes, the same is true of Coulomb's law. Imagine that a charged particle or a gravitating mass were to suddenly appear anywhere in the universe at time ##T## - if we take those two laws at face value, there would be a non-zero force everywhere in the universe at any time after ##T##. That doesn't make a lot of sense, so instead of taking them at face value we accept that they don't apply in time-varying situations.

Maxwell's laws, discovered in 1861, supplied the necessary understanding of time dependence for electricity and magnetism. General relativity, a half-century later, did the same for gravitation.
THANK YOU! So the more general equations reduce EXACTLY to the two mentioned equations for time-invariant situations?
 
Amin2014 said:
So the more general equations reduce EXACTLY to the two mentioned equations for time-invariant situations?

They do not. For example, the Schwarzschild solution to the Einstein field equations of general relativity describes the static time-independent gravitational field of a spherical mass, just as does Newton's ##F=Gm_1m_2/r^2## - but the solution is slightly different and as a result the orbits predicted by Newton's theory do not quite match those predicted by GR and actually observed (google for "Mercury orbit precession").
 

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