Capacitors - Conservation of Charge vs Conservation of Energy

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem involving capacitors, specifically the application of conservation of charge versus conservation of energy to determine the final voltage after a switch configuration changes. The original poster describes a scenario where two capacitors are involved, and there is a discrepancy in the results obtained using the two conservation principles.

Discussion Character

  • Mixed

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the use of conservation of charge and conservation of energy to solve the problem, noting that both methods yield different final voltages. Some participants express a preference for conservation of charge, while others question the applicability of conservation of energy in this context.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants sharing their thoughts on the validity of each method. Some guidance has been offered, suggesting a thought experiment involving a resistor to further analyze the energy dynamics in the circuit.

Contextual Notes

Participants are operating under forum rules that prohibit direct answers, emphasizing a collaborative approach to understanding the problem rather than providing solutions.

vineel
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
I am a TA for a physics teacher. I wrote a problem that the students did in the lab quiz. The students tried to use conservation of energy instead of conservation of charge, which I used. Both methods seem sound to me, but they produce different answers. I need help figuring out which method is correct, and why the other one is incorrect.

Homework Statement



http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7147/capacitors.png

S2 is now opened after C1 has been fully charged and S1 is then closed. What is the final voltage?

Homework Equations



[itex]C = \frac{Q}{V}[/itex]

[itex]U = \frac{1}{2} C V^{2}[/itex]

The Attempt at a Solution



[itex]V_{0} = \text{initial voltage} = 3V[/itex]
[itex]C_{0} = \text{initial capacitance} = C_{1} = 470 \mu F[/itex]
[itex]Q_{0} = \text{initial charge}[/itex]
[itex]Q_{1} = \text{final charge on } C_{1}[/itex]
[itex]Q_{2} = \text{final charge on } C_{2}[/itex]
[itex]V^{'} = \text{final voltage}[/itex]

Conservation of Charge:

[itex]Q_{0} = C_{0} V_{0}[/itex]

[itex]Q_{1} = C_{1} V^{'}[/itex]
[itex]Q_{2} = C_{2} V^{'}[/itex]

[itex]Q_{0} = Q_{1} + Q_{2} = C_{1} V^{'} + C_{2} V^{'} = (C_{1} + C_{2}) V^{'}[/itex]

[itex]V^{'} = \frac{Q_{0}}{C_{1} + C_{2}} = \frac{C_{0} V_{0}}{C_{1} + C_{2}} = \frac{(470 \times 10^{-6} F) (3V)}{470 \times 10^{-6} F + 100 \times 10^{-6} F} \approx \textbf{2.474 V}[/itex]

Conservation of Energy:

[itex]U_{1} = \frac{1}{2} C_{1} (V^{'})^2[/itex]
[itex]U_{2} = \frac{1}{2} C_{2} (V^{'})^2[/itex]

[itex]U_{0} = U_{1} + U_{2} = \frac{1}{2} C_{1} (V^{'})^2 + \frac{1}{2} C_{2} (V^{'})^2 = \frac{1}{2}(V^{'})^{2}(C_{1} + C_{2})[/itex]

[itex]\frac{1}{2} C_{1} V_{0}^{2} = \frac{1}{2}(V^{'})^{2}(C_{1} + C_{2})[/itex]
[itex]C_{1} V_{0}^{2} = (V^{'})^{2}(C_{1} + C_{2})[/itex]
[itex]V^{'} = V_{0} \sqrt{\frac{C_{1}}{C_{1} + C_{2}}} = (3V) \sqrt{\frac{470 \times 10^{-6} F}{470 \times 10^{-6} F + 100 \times 10^{-6} F}} \approx \textbf{2.724 V}[/itex]

The answers are inconsistent. Which one (if at all) is correct?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
vineel said:
I am a TA for a physics teacher. I wrote a problem that the students did in the lab quiz. The students tried to use conservation of energy instead of conservation of charge, which I used. Both methods seem sound to me, but they produce different answers. I need help figuring out which method is correct, and why the other one is incorrect.

Homework Statement



http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7147/capacitors.png

S2 is now opened after C1 has been fully charged and S1 is then closed. What is the final voltage?

Homework Equations



[itex]C = \frac{Q}{V}[/itex]

[itex]U = \frac{1}{2} C V^{2}[/itex]

The Attempt at a Solution



[itex]V_{0} = \text{initial voltage} = 3V[/itex]
[itex]C_{0} = \text{initial capacitance} = C_{1} = 470 \mu F[/itex]
[itex]Q_{0} = \text{initial charge}[/itex]
[itex]Q_{1} = \text{final charge on } C_{1}[/itex]
[itex]Q_{2} = \text{final charge on } C_{2}[/itex]
[itex]V^{'} = \text{final voltage}[/itex]

Conservation of Charge:

[itex]Q_{0} = C_{0} V_{0}[/itex]

[itex]Q_{1} = C_{1} V^{'}[/itex]
[itex]Q_{2} = C_{2} V^{'}[/itex]

[itex]Q_{0} = Q_{1} + Q_{2} = C_{1} V^{'} + C_{2} V^{'} = (C_{1} + C_{2}) V^{'}[/itex]

[itex]V^{'} = \frac{Q_{0}}{C_{1} + C_{2}} = \frac{C_{0} V_{0}}{C_{1} + C_{2}} = \frac{(470 \times 10^{-6} F) (3V)}{470 \times 10^{-6} F + 100 \times 10^{-6} F} \approx \textbf{2.474 V}[/itex]

Conservation of Energy:

[itex]U_{1} = \frac{1}{2} C_{1} (V^{'})^2[/itex]
[itex]U_{2} = \frac{1}{2} C_{2} (V^{'})^2[/itex]

[itex]U_{0} = U_{1} + U_{2} = \frac{1}{2} C_{1} (V^{'})^2 + \frac{1}{2} C_{2} (V^{'})^2 = \frac{1}{2}(V^{'})^{2}(C_{1} + C_{2})[/itex]

[itex]\frac{1}{2} C_{1} V_{0}^{2} = \frac{1}{2}(V^{'})^{2}(C_{1} + C_{2})[/itex]
[itex]C_{1} V_{0}^{2} = (V^{'})^{2}(C_{1} + C_{2})[/itex]
[itex]V^{'} = V_{0} \sqrt{\frac{C_{1}}{C_{1} + C_{2}}} = (3V) \sqrt{\frac{470 \times 10^{-6} F}{470 \times 10^{-6} F + 100 \times 10^{-6} F}} \approx \textbf{2.724 V}[/itex]

The answers are inconsistent. Which one (if at all) is correct?

What are your own thoughts on the matter?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
gneill,

I personally feel that my method (conservation of charge) is the correct one. I feel as if conservation of energy does not apply for some reason.

I am not sure at all, so I am posting this question.
 
vineel said:
gneill,

I personally feel that my method (conservation of charge) is the correct one. I feel as if conservation of energy does not apply for some reason.

I am not sure at all, so I am posting this question.

We can't just give you an answer here (Forum rules), but we can help to a solution...

I suggest that you try a thought experiment. Suppose your circuit was the same as before but includes a resistance R between the two capacitors. Clearly some energy will be lost as heat in the resistor when S1 is closed and the current flows.

Write the equation for the current I(t) in the circuit and then find the energy lost by integrating I2R from time 0 to infinity. What's the resulting expression? What does it depend upon?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K