Car stalls during idle after battery replacement, then fine after two days

[symbolipoint]

This question for any technical purposes is way out-of-my league.
How or why is it that replacing a dead car battery with a new battery would allow the car to stall while engine idling for 1, maybe 2 days, and then no further stalling after that? This should seem to make no sense. Typical modern car by well-known foreign manufacturer. Fuel-injected, in case that were important.

 

[Baluncore]

Maybe the ECU forgot its fuel-air-timing settings while the battery was removed. It will work them out again, given time idling, and has now learnt them again.

What make, model, and year, is the car?

 

[DaveE]

Software. A reliable RTOS is a myth ASFAIK. The exception is if it cost as much as what they put in an F-18 and such. We simply don't pay enough to get really good SW in our cars.

 

[symbolipoint]

I had absolutely no guess to expect to find anything in a web search, and then now this, the top one being what is listed below, first:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/engine-stalls-idles-too-high-low-after-dead-or-replaced-battery

https://repairpal.com/symptoms/engine-stalling-after-battery-replacement

https://autosolutionlab.com/car-stalling-after-battery-change/

https://carzaza.com/stalling-after-new-battery/

 

[Baluncore]

Servicing cars with airbags requires disconnecting the battery. Different cars respond in different ways after a battery disconnect. Without knowing the make, model, and year, we cannot be specific in the diagnosis.
It is usually a case of telling the owner: "That light will stay on, until you get halfway home".

 

[russ_watters]

Maybe the ECU forgot its fuel-air-timing settings while the battery was removed. It will work them out again, given time idling, and has now learnt them again.

Yup, happened to me once. It's incredibly difficult to drive a manual transmission if you have to keep one foot on the gas all the time to avoid stalling.

 

[jack action]

Typical modern car by well-known foreign manufacturer.

In Canada, where I live, all cars are foreign.

 

[Baluncore]

It's incredibly difficult to drive a manual transmission if you have to keep one foot on the gas all the time to avoid stalling.

That is why I prefer diesels with a hand throttle, without a computer.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I would also favor the ECU, but some crud on the cable to the battery can do the same thing, until it is better seated.

 

[JT Smith]

That is why I prefer diesels with a hand throttle, without a computer.

I prefer cars that don't stall. A hand throttle would make it harder to text and/or eat at the same time.

 

[Baluncore]

Diesels have a governor as part of the injection pump. The "RPM pedal" or the hand throttle sets the required RPM, which stays where you set it. The diesel has plenty of torque and will not stall. When you get to a hill, it injects more fuel to maintain the RPM and road speed. That is the original cruise control.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Diesels have a governor as part of the injection pump. The "RPM pedal" or the hand throttle sets the required RPM, which stays where you set it. The diesel has plenty of torque and will not stall. When you get to a hill, it injects more fuel to maintain the RPM and road speed. That is the original cruise control.

Maybe in your corner of the world but not in the USA. If I drove a vehicle like that here in the US I would think someone pulled an engine out of a tractor or industrial machine and put in a vehicle without changing the pump. The old mechanical pumps here would have a governed top speed as well as bottom. After that it's whatever your foot says.

 

[JT Smith]

Diesels have a governor as part of the injection pump. The "RPM pedal" or the hand throttle sets the required RPM, which stays where you set it. The diesel has plenty of torque and will not stall. When you get to a hill, it injects more fuel to maintain the RPM and road speed. That is the original cruise control.

Interesting. I have nothing against diesel technology per se. It's more of a sense that they tend to be available primarily in larger vehicles which doesn't fit my needs.

I'm mostly bummed that manual transmissions are disappearing and automation is increasing. So I'm trying to keep my 30 year old car running as long as I can. It has some issues but stalling is not one of them. I wouldn't tolerate that. Who would?

 

[Baluncore]

Maybe in your corner of the world but not in the USA.

You have my sympathy.

The disposable diesel engines built for cars today are as bad as the petrol engines. Not only do they have an ECU that needs to know the calibration number of each injector, but they fail just as quickly, and cannot be reconditioned.

When they first introduced stepped timing belts, those belts were reliable, but were quickly reduced to needing replacement before 100,000 km. Timing chains are now the same gauge as bicycle chains, so they wear, stretch and destroy interference engines, that then require the disposal and replacement of the whole vehicle.

Today, a horse lives for more than twice as long as a car, plus it runs on renewable energy, and self replicates. Horses are self-driving, and come with an intelligent controller in their head that avoids stupid collisions.

The IC engines, in the cars being built today, have a lifetime that is less than a dog. My old truck has seen out two dogs already, and will see at least another dog out with me.

 

[jack action]

[THREAD HIJACKING]

Today, a horse lives for more than twice as long as a car, plus it runs on renewable energy, and self replicates. Horses are self-driving, and come with an intelligent controller in their head that avoids stupid collisions.

... and they poop everywhere ... 8 tons per year ... for every horse ... whether you use them or not. You need 3 months to a year to compost it. (So, between 2 and 8 tons of manure lying around at all times... per horse.)

Assuming - conservatively - that we need 1 acre of land to feed a horse and get rid of its manure, and that we replace each car in the US with a single horse (forget speeds above 30 km/h), we need 290 million acres of farmland; there are about 900 million acres of farmland in the US right now.

Horses were a nightmare for modern life - 100 years ago - until the invention of cars. I can't imagine how bad it would be today.

There is no easy way out. Maybe we should review the need for our desperate thirst for transportation.
[/THREAD HIJACKING]

 

[Baluncore]

Horse manure is not a problem to be rid of, it is an asset that is needed to fertilise and improve the organic structure of the soil that we grow our food in.

Public transport works well in Europe and Japan, so why do people in the USA require so many cars to commute?

I am not suggesting each car should be replaced with a horse, just that a horse is a small investment over 30-years, while a car costs more up front, yet lasts only 10-years. I do realise that horse transport will not return, because they use insufficient fossil fuel to support the US economy.

 

[Averagesupernova]

@Baluncore I don't know what any of that has to do with a mechanical injection pump with a low RPM limit as well as a top limit on the governor. Before diesel engines went electronic the only thing the governor inside the pump did was limit each end. The driver regulated speed the same as any other vehicle. If the driver had their foot into the pedal by a certain amount then the engine would meter that amount of fuel in no matter the load. Nowhere in the USA does any diesel engine that propels a vehicle down the road at highway speed govern the RPM as set by a lever. The driver is the governor. If you are talking about cruise control on diesels that is a different matter.

 

[Ranger Mike]

you gave very limited information but in general terms
The car’s diagnostics would reset after two twenty-minute trips after the car’s battery is reconnected. This is The ambiguous car "computer" does “relearning” how to run. Generally the car’s computer will adjust various inputs to maximize the engine’s ability to run well. Not a total answer but a guess as to your current conditions. If it now runs good, you should be ok.

 

[Baluncore]

@Averagesupernova The mechanical fuel pumps with a centrifugal governor have an idle speed setting. The top engine RPM is not set, but there is a maximum fuel setting, (to prevent black smoke). Those settings are screw adjustable on the pump.

The accelerator pedal, coupled with the hand throttle, sets the wanted RPM, that is then compared mechanically in the governor with the actual engine RPM, and the fuel is increased or reduced to match those two. The mechanical control loop is damped in a bath of diesel or lube oil. Full depression of the accelerator injects maximum fuel without governor control.

Nowhere in the USA does any diesel engine that propels a vehicle down the road at highway speed govern the RPM as set by a lever.

That is not true for many trucks with mechanical injection pumps. Look at the older diesel Toyota Hi-Lux and Land Cruisers. The driver depresses the accelerator pedal to hold the speed they want, they can then set the hand throttle to clamp the accelerator linkage, the governor will then hold that RPM, while the pedal stays where it was before the foot was lifted off.

Diesels today are more petrol-like in their response, and are often fitted with a turbocharger. Normally aspirated diesels use a compression ratio of about 20:1, while those with turbos use about 16:1, (sufficient to start). The turboboost on a 16:1 engine can push the power output and cylinder pressures beyond what is reliable. That shortens the life of the engine if it is used often.

Common rail fuel injection is now needed to meet emission control regulations, so mechanical governors have been replaced with an ECU and software cruise control. The governor is now in the software, the programming of the accelerator pedal position can be for speed or acceleration.

 

[Ranger Mike]

I will agree with Baluncore on all the above except for the lever part. My Dodge Diesel Cummins, no lever but had cruise , had 16:1 turbo ( 2001 model) . Had 220,000 miles on it and excellent compression, all indications that it could go to 500,000 miles before a valve job. Love those Cummins.

 

[Baluncore]

The hand throttle on a tractor was usually a lever. I only see older tractors.

On a road vehicle, it is often a rotary knob that turns a screw on the end of a cable. If you hit the knob, there is a quick release that takes the engine speed setting to idle. A round knob is safer than a lever in an MVA.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Horse manure is not a problem to be rid of

Depends on where on the internet you visit.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Look at the older diesel Toyota Hi-Lux and Land Cruisers. The driver depresses the accelerator pedal to hold the speed they want, they can then set the hand throttle to clamp the accelerator linkage, the governor will then hold that RPM, while the pedal stays where it was before the foot was lifted off.

I've never driven one. I seriously doubt that setup is legal in the USA. The only thing I've seen on diesels that holds the throttle control mechanically is on semi tractors that is used during warm up. As the motor warms up the RPM creeps up and the driver backs it off. It is not meant to be used as a cruise control.

 

[Averagesupernova]

The hand throttle on a tractor was usually a lever. I only see older tractors.

On a road vehicle, it is often a rotary knob that turns a screw on the end of a cable. If you hit the knob, there is a quick release that takes the engine speed setting to idle. A round knob is safer than a lever in an MVA.

Yes. This is exactly what I am referring to on a semi tractor. Turn the knob counter clockwise to increase the throttle. Clockwise to decrease or push the button on the center of the knob to completely release and go back to idle. Not meant to be used as a cruise control. Gas rigs had them too. Usually to increase idle to run a hydraulic pump coming off the PTO on the transmission or maybe an air compressor.

 

[symbolipoint]

#18 from @Ranger Mike is about as good a summary as can be given, for me o.p. who asked. Some but not all other comments are going in several different directions. The repair technician could have but did not instruct us about this; which would have been nice.

 

[Baluncore]

We do not know the make, model and year.
Different vehicles behave in different ways.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Thank you , symbolipoint , much appreciated.

 

[Averagesupernova]

The driver depresses the accelerator pedal to hold the speed they want, they can then set the hand throttle to clamp the accelerator linkage, the governor will then hold that RPM, while the pedal stays where it was before the foot was lifted off.

So to make sure I have this right one last time you are telling me that the governor in a diesel road vehicle is made to 'hold RPM'? Sorry, I've driven enough diesels from trucks with mechanical pumps pulling 40 tons as well as lighter vehicles with mechanical pumps to know this is not true. Imagine an automatic transmission shifting with an engine in front of it governed to hold RPM. Telling a diesel pump shop that you want your pump set up to do that and they'll tell you to hit the bricks.

 

[Baluncore]

Imagine an automatic transmission shifting with an engine in front of it governed to hold RPM.

It would be terrible, which is why it uses a manual transmission.

Luckily, the rest of the world was not like the USA.
Here, we knew how to use a clutch and how to change gear, so we did not need automatic transmissions, with inefficient torque converters. Fuel was cheap in the USA, as was the environment.

Dual-clutch automatic gearboxes are now replacing those with torque converters.

 

[Averagesupernova]

@Baluncore so you're telling me in everywhere else besides the USA if one were to be driving down a flat stretch of highway at a steady speed and pushed the clutch in without changing the position of the throttle that engine would hold RPM? It wouldn't over rev?

 

[Baluncore]

@Baluncore so you're telling me in everywhere else besides the USA if one were to be driving down a flat stretch of highway at a steady speed and pushed the clutch in without changing the position of the throttle that engine would hold RPM? It wouldn't over rev?

No, don't be silly.
You need to specify the type of engine and injection pump governor.

 

[Averagesupernova]

No, don't be silly.

That's really the only answer I need. It either regulates rpm based on throttle position or it doesn't. And no I'm not talking about regulating it within 5-10 RPM. You seem to be attempting to change your story.

It would be terrible, which is why it uses a manual transmission.

Luckily, the rest of the world was not like the USA.
Here, we knew how to use a clutch and how to change gear, so we did not need automatic transmissions, with inefficient torque converters.

Interesting you say that. Based upon your argument so far it could be said that the rest of the world doesn't know how to regulate speed without a governor.

 

[Baluncore]

It either regulates rpm based on throttle position or it doesn't.

Unlike petrol engines, a diesel engine does not limit airflow and fuel with a throttle valve.

 

[Vanadium 50]

the rest of the world was not like the USA.

The rest of the world is a big place.

CVTs are becoming much more popular in Europe, Home of the Manual Gearbox. Why? Presumably because gasoline costs a fortune. Any theoretical efficiency improvement from a manual can be more than compensated for by shifting through an inhuman number of gears at inhuman speeds.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Unlike petrol engines, a diesel engine does not limit airflow and fuel with a throttle valve.

In the USA it is comm to call it throttle even though it is not restricting the intake. It's a carryover from gasoline engines. Other than attempting to illustrate that I might not have known that, what's the point of bringing it up?

 

[Averagesupernova]

Any theoretical efficiency improvement from a manual can be more than compensated for by shifting through an inhuman number of gears at inhuman speeds.

Lol. True. So is a ten speed transmission shifting through 'inhuman number of gears'? It's the most I've seen in light trucks/pickups. So far, I like the one I drive. Even semi tractors can have as few as 9 speeds. Never thought I'd see ten speeds in pickups but here they are.

 

[Baluncore]

It either regulates rpm based on throttle position or it doesn't.

In the USA it is comm to call it throttle even though it is not restricting the intake.

Maybe you were referring to the accelerator pedal, and the linkage to the injection pump?

 

[Averagesupernova]

Maybe you were referring to the accelerator pedal, and the linkage to the injection pump?

Naturally.

 

[Baluncore]

So is a ten speed transmission shifting through 'inhuman number of gears'? It's the most I've seen in light trucks/pickups.

A ten speed transmission would now be a dual clutch automatic transmission, without a torque converter. It would have 5 gears on the main shaft, with an odd and an even countershaft.

A CVT is really only applicable to light-weight cars, when the inefficiency of the torque converter needs to be eliminated from the automatic transmission.

 

[Averagesupernova]

A ten speed transmission would now be a dual clutch automatic transmission, without a torque converter. It would have 5 gears on the main shaft, with an odd and an even countershaft.

I'm curious as to which transmission you refer to. The 10 speed I have in a Ford pickup has a torque converter.

 

[Baluncore]

I'm curious as to which transmission you refer to.

One without a torque converter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-clutch_transmission

If you have a Ford 10R80 transmission, then you have my sympathy.
"In summary, Ford 10-speed automatic transmission vehicles face continuing issues with harsh shifting, hesitation, acceleration problems, and potential safety hazards based on thousands of complaints. Multiple lawsuits allege Ford concealed innate defects while failing to issue adequate fixes over the past five years. 8 Mar 2024"

 

[Averagesupernova]

One without a torque converter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-clutch_transmission

If you have a Ford 10R80 transmission, then you have my sympathy.
"In summary, Ford 10-speed automatic transmission vehicles face continuing issues with harsh shifting, hesitation, acceleration problems, and potential safety hazards based on thousands of complaints. Multiple lawsuits allege Ford concealed innate defects while failing to issue adequate fixes over the past five years. 8 Mar 2024"

We'll see. So far I am happy with it. I have also seen about the troubles with the 10R80. To contrast that, I have a 2001 Dodge 1500 pickup that the transmission failed at less than 60,000 miles. Total junk. That transmission had an easy life prior to the failure. By the time any problem was noticed the convertor had released enough filings into the system that a complete disassemble cleaning and overhaul was necessary.

 

[Baluncore]

Torque converters are inefficient, so they cost more for fuel and release more emissions. They need to be replaced, probably with dual clutch transmissions.

Disassembling automatic transmissions with problems is too complex and expensive. Give me a manual transmission, I can fix that.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Some form of automatic transmission will be the norm. A person can't even find drivers for semi trucks that want to drive a manual. I agree a manual transmission is easier to work on but people like you and I who tackle such things generally are in the minority. How long it takes before the torque converter as we know it is replaced I don't know. Based on the link you provided I can see how it could function as an automatic but not in the same way an automatic would with a torque converter.

 

[Baluncore]

How long it takes before the torque converter as we know it is replaced I don't know.

When simple automatic transmissions with two or three ratios were common, a wide-range torque converter was needed to interpolate between those ratios, and to extrapolate beyond the highest and lowest ratios. That was important with the narrow RPM power-band of a petrol engine. Having many available gear ratios reduces the need for a wide-range torque converter.

A diesel has flat torque across the band, so power is proportional to RPM. If RPM ever falls too far, power and momentum are lost. Having many ratios available is an advantage when operating in the narrow band near the top of the diesel RPM range.
Eaton produced the 18 speed Road Ranger crash gearboxes, used in trucks to optimise power output, over a wide range of road speeds.

When the torque converter retires, many gear ratios will be needed in the gearbox.

 

[jack action]

Torque converters are inefficient, so they cost more for fuel and release more emissions. They need to be replaced, probably with dual clutch transmissions.

Do you have sources for that? It seems that automakers are renewing with torque converters:

Modern Cars With Torque Converters

• In 2018, Audi Launched the 2019 RS5 Sportback equipped with a conventional eight-speed automatic with a torque converter instead of a dual-clutch transmission. The 2019 Audi RS5 Sportback is propelled by a twin-turbocharged 2.9-liter V6 outputting 444 horsepower and 443 pound-feet of torque. Its project manager Anthony Garvis stated that the car is a grand tourer and conventional transmissions are just as fast as dual-clutch units while ditching the herky-jerky low-speed behavior
• In 2021 BMW launched the M3 Competition which was equipped with an eight-speed regular torque-converter automatic, rather than a dual-clutch (DCT) unit, driving via an electronically controlled limited-slip differential. This sparked the debate if the torque converters are back coming back in the performance cars.

The new M3 is being offered in the UK armed with the ZF 8HP torque-converter automatic, which is now in its third generation and has been steadily developed since its introduction in 2009. Strip away all the internal mechanical differences and the key distinction between it (or any torque-converter-based transmission) and a DCT or manual is that the torque is transmitted from the engine to the gearsets by a fluid coupling, the torque converter, rather than by a clutch or clutches

Similarly, Mercedes-AMG C63 S, Porsche 911 Carrera S, and Jaguar F-Type R have also adopted the torque converter transmission and this shows that many of the disadvantages and issues of the torque converters have been tackled with and will see a rise in the adoption.

“So at first, considering the power and performance from a standing start, the torque converter is working very well. And also the serious driving around the road, with speed conditions, torque converter is also doing a very good job,” GR Corolla Chief Engineer Naoyuki Sakamoto told The Drive.

“Then after rolling out, lockup engaged—so after that, the torque converter doesn’t slip. So in that case, there’s no difference between the DCT and automatic transmission. Both [transmissions are] shifter-changing, releasing the clutch and grabbing the clutch, so they’re almost the same. So as a result, we’re choosing the automatic transmission. We don’t have to use a dual-clutch transmission.”

It seems that, at least according to Toyota, there wasn’t much of a performance gain to be had by switching to a more complex and more expensive DCT. Toyota knows that DCTs have their advantages, but they apparently aren’t attractive enough to warrant the switch.

“Of course, there are pros and cons. Sometimes a DCT is better, sometimes AT is better. That’s true. But we have a long history of improving the automatic transmission,” Sakamoto said. “We want to take advantage of our capability, so that’s why we’re focusing on the automatic transmission. We understand a DCT is better in some ways, like weight, but still, we’ve been able to improve the technology of the automatic transmission through motorsports.”

For the foreseeable future, all self-shifting transmission for the M Division will be traditional torque-converter automatics of some kind; be it the current ZF eight-speed or an updated unit. While there are whispers about the decision being made over torque, with some rumors that modern DCTs can’t handle the torque of new M cars, they’re nonsense. The real reason is that the ZF eight-speed is more efficient and easier to calibrate for ultimate efficiency. And because efficiency is more important than almost all else in today’s automotive climate, the DCT is a casualty of the times.

“I'm not even sure the next generation of M3 and M4 models from BMW will have the option of a manual gearbox,” [BMW M’s vice president of sales and marketing Peter] Quintus stated.

“[And] we are now seeing automatic transmissions with nine and even 10 speeds, so there's a lot of technology in modern automatics.

“It's more a question of how long has the DCT got to go. How long will it last?”

Quintus told Drive that modern automatics have largely closed the technology gap to the DCT, while increasing outputs for M’s performance cars meant manuals struggled to cope with beyond 335kW and 600Nm.

It could be one reason why the just-released BMW M4 CS ramps up the boosted 3.0-litre six-cylinder from 550Nm to 600Nm, but is DCT-only.

The vice president of sales and marketing continued: “The DCT once had two advantages: it was light and its shift speeds were higher. Now, a lot of that shift-time advantage has disappeared as automatics get better and smarter.”

The 8HP is a prime example of the modern super-efficient automatic transmission. Internally, the flow of cooling oil can be increased or reduced as needed to save the amount of energy consumed by the cooling pump. The pump supplying pressure for the gearshift actuation system is electrically driven to keep it working while the engine is shut down for longer start/stop and coasting periods.

Most importantly, the minute control over ‘shift point optimisation’ to maximise fuel consumption that it gives engineers is so good that it’s very hard to better it. The 8HP can handle up to 738lb ft ‘input’ torque from the engine, easily accommodating the M3’s 479lb ft. It weighs 87kg – relatively light but still roughly double that of a six-speed manual.

Like it or lump it, though, the choice of automatic transmission technology has gone full circle, from torque converter through AMTs and DCTs and back to torque converter, and that’s unlikely to change now.

Q: Can a torque converter offer the same fuel efficiency as a clutch?

A: Modern torque converters have improved significantly in efficiency and can closely match manual transmissions, especially when paired with advanced automatic transmission technologies.

Automatic and manual transmission myths debunked

While the differences between manual and automatic gearboxes are well-documented, there remain some common beliefs about both that have either become less relevant with evolving technologies or were never accurate in the first place.

[...]

It is often said that manual transmission is more fuel-efficient, and that was indeed once the case. Still, with the introduction of electronically-assisted systems, including DCT, the lines are becoming blurry between manual and automatic transmissions' performance. [...]

 

[Baluncore]

Do you have sources for that?

A mechanical clutch only gets hot when it slips under load. While operating, fluid couplings get hot and so need oil coolers. QED.

Oil coolers fail, often mixing transmission fluid with engine coolant, in an expensive demon-stration of built-in redundancy.

Motor vehicle design is based largely on feel and perception, not on optimum fuel efficiency. Hiding gear changes behind constant acceleration is often unnecessary, and has become an expensive pursuit of impossible perfection.

Design problems, with smooth DCT gear changing under load, may require a torque converter to absorb the transients. The torque converter can then be locked mechanically, so it ceases to be a torque converter, giving the efficiency of a mechanical drive.

Where traffic lights cause start-stop flow, and there is an aversion to roundabouts, there will be a natural selection for automatic transmissions. That is expensive and inefficient.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Yes a torque converter is slower and cost more to manufacture than a manual transmission set up but you miss one giant point. In the late 50s earl y60s the manual trans was the most common. Today it is rare. Why? Women demanded the automatic transmission. Since they are now over 51% of the population, guess who the auto makers are targeting too? Climate change ( transmssion heat) and fuel milage go out the window when it comes to ease of operation and comfort.

 

[jack action]

Today it is rare.

A manual transmission is really fun when you are alone on a long winding road. But today I seem to be more and more stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic jams where the use of the clutch is just a pain. For an everyday car, I will choose an automatic transmission every time.

 

[JT Smith]

A manual transmission is really fun when you are alone on a long winding road. But today I seem to be more and more stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic jams where the use of the clutch is just a pain. For an everyday car, I will choose an automatic transmission every time.

I think that overstates it a bit. Even in the city with stoplights a manual can be fun as long as there isn't gridlock. But in bumper to bumper, stop and go traffic even die hard manual enthusiasts have to admit that an automatic is better.

It's getting to be where it's a moot point. Each year there are fewer models available with a manual transmission.