Charge electric car from dryer plug?

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mheslep

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I am wondering who is gonna pay for all the "charging pods" and who will stand good for the power bill.
Same type of people who build and pay for all those gas stations: businesses. The bill is paid immediately when one charges (card swipe, or smart charger knows the smart car).

also, those connectors and cable don't look like they'd be any fun in parts of the world that have harsh winter conditions. Ice and snow packed into the connector on your car, then some "brainiak" gets out his truck key to dig ice out of the end and (insert the smell of bacon here)
people are scarey enough with gasoline

I say a lady "pressure wash" her trunk lid with about a gallon trying to muscle the hose to the wrong side of her car.

a "full service" fueling infrastructure would be much better (for in town) as it would control access and help with a minimum level of safety...
I expect the underlying theme of a thousand like minded posts is a powerful reluctance to give up that "I have made fire" feeling that goes with riding around on top a combustion engine. It's been that way for a 100 years, and it is not to be lightly. Possibly what's needed is a series of demonstrations where a large vehicle battery is catastrophically destroyed in a way that intentionally causes a large fireball, or even some Nikola Tesla like showmanship that adds substantial arcing. Think that will scare people off? Not a chance, with Hollywood exploding ten cars per second. Instead, a dramatic battery explosion will bring them (men anyway) on-board immediately.

On a rewatch of The Matrix the other night, it occurred to me Hollywood had exactly the same problem with vehicles of that dark and pessimistic future. Morpheus's ship could not simply be allowed to quietly electro-glide along, even though stealth was clearly a life and death requirement throughout the plot. They had to add in all those over the top arc effects to show off some Real Power (tm).
 
I am not being dismissing. The change can be good. But from a reality sort of sense, the logistics are going to be significant. In the current economic climate, how many business are going to borrow millions of dollars to put in service pods. gas stations do not make their money in fuel, its the beer cigs and chips. a card swipe pod on the street in town will have to make all the profit, loan intrest, and principle back from what they "over charge" (sorry...pun) above the residential rates. I personally do NOT want my tax money spent on this, either.

dr
 
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I am not being dismissing. The change can be good. But from a reality sort of sense, the logistics are going to be significant. In the current economic climate, how many business are going to borrow millions of dollars to put in service pods. gas stations do not make their money in fuel, its the beer cigs and chips. a card swipe pod on the street in town will have to make all the profit, loan intrest, and principle back from what they "over charge" (sorry...pun) above the residential rates.
I think you're oversimplifying things. There's lots of gas stations around here that sell nothing but gas. And guess what, they're the cheapest ... There may be a chicken - egg thing (between the cars and the charging stations), but once there is demand for a service (battery charging) there WILL be businesses that will provide it.

I personally do NOT want my tax money spent on this, either.
Has anyone said anything about the gov't using tax money for any of this infrastructure?
 

mheslep

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I am not being dismissing. The change can be good. But from a reality sort of sense, the logistics are going to be significant. In the current economic climate, how many business are going to borrow millions of dollars to put in service pods.
Quite a few.
http://www.coulombtech.com/press_releases/release_20091214.php" [Broken]
http://www.coulombtech.com/press_releases/release_20091207.php" [Broken]
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/02/in-denmark-ambitious-plan-for-electric-cars/"
http://www.cnet.com.au/q-a-better-place-s-electric-car-plans-brilliant-or-nuts-339296126.htm" [Broken]
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17912_3-10220414-72.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20"

Edit: Besides, this was all done once before. 1910 in the US saw charge spots all over the major cities. Hotels, etc. The cost of slow charge infrastructure, frankly, is trivial. Most of it is already in place in 2009, except for the last 10 feet. The financial hang up is in the batteries.

dr dodge said:
gas stations do not make their money in fuel, its the beer cigs and chips.
Exactly right. That's why they won't care whether they sell fuel, batteries, or electricity.

dr dodge said:
a card swipe pod on the street in town will have to make all the profit, loan intrest, and principle back from what they "over charge" (sorry...pun) above the residential rates.
The same is true for the service connection to your residence. Appears street side, mass roll out charge spots cost ~$400-500 ea, installed.

dr dodge said:
I personally do NOT want my tax money spent on this, either.
dr
I don't want any more of my tax money spent on EVs than already is spent on subsidies for oil and gas.
 
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mgb_phys

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I am wondering who is gonna pay for all the "charging pods"
With a 20-30min charging time and less infrastructure (no tanks or deliveries) the suggestion is that malls, supermakets and parking garages would offer charging to attract you to their store rather than the competitor. And since the cost of a charge is less than a parking mater in most cities they would probably include it free with some level of purchase.

then some "brainiak" gets out his truck key to dig ice out of the end and (insert the smell of bacon here)
If you proposed a gasoline engine today it would be laughed out of court.
You want people to carry around 10-15Gal of explosive fuel, inside a car and burn it in a hot engine !!!!!
 
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... they would probably include it free with some level of purchase.
Wishful thinking? Actually you probably know there's no such thing as 'free.' If the stores do include it 'no charge' (hahaha) they will just raise the prices on all their goods. After all, there's no reason to expect retailers to pick up the national burden for transportation energy cost...
 

russ_watters

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Cost structure is an interesting issue. My electricity is up to about $.15/kwh now. But a large commercial user tends to pay around $.06-$.08. So They could charge you a healthy mark-up and it would still be cheaper than buying the power at home!
 

Borek

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the biggest draws you ever see for household devices are 1500W
That can be a difference between you place and my place (I am in EU, more precisely in PL but I doubt it matters). To my left I have an electric heater 2 kW, in my kitchen I have 1800 W electric kettle, heater in my laundry machine is 2 kW (or at least it was 2 kW in the previous one, not sure about the one we bough this year). Hair dryers 2 kW are not uncommon. For many years I thought 2 kW is the limit, few years ago - after the plug has been fried - I was surprised to find out that heater in our dishwasher is actually a 3 kW unit. So much more than 1500 W you listed.

And I am talking specifically about 240V one phase devices, water heater in my bath is 18 kW, but it uses three phases supply, so it is in different category.

Not that it changes much in your calculation and conclusions.
 

mgb_phys

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Wishful thinking? Actually you probably know there's no such thing as 'free.' If the stores do include it 'no charge' (hahaha) they will just raise the prices on all their goods. After all, there's no reason to expect retailers to pick up the national burden for transportation energy cost...
The retailers also light and heat (or air-condition) their stores 'for free'

Parking costs $1-5/hour in most cities but stores offer free parking which is losing them $1-5/customer.
Would you go to a mall that charged you for parking meters, if you did would you hurry out as quickly as possible rather than browse and buy.

A 25Kwh charge is costing them something around $1 at commercial power rates.
If you had an electric car and a certain store offered free 30min top-ups you are going to go there rather than the discount store?
And since its going to take 30mins to charge you are going to stay longer and buy a few $5 coffees

So double whipped no-foam espresso mocha lattes are going to pay for the nation's transport!
 

russ_watters

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That can be a difference between you place and my place (I am in EU, more precisely in PL but I doubt it matters). To my left I have an electric heater 2 kW, in my kitchen I have 1800 W electric kettle, heater in my laundry machine is 2 kW (or at least it was 2 kW in the previous one, not sure about the one we bough this year). Hair dryers 2 kW are not uncommon. For many years I thought 2 kW is the limit, few years ago - after the plug has been fried - I was surprised to find out that heater in our dishwasher is actually a 3 kW unit. So much more than 1500 W you listed.

And I am talking specifically about 240V one phase devices, water heater in my bath is 18 kW, but it uses three phases supply, so it is in different category.

Not that it changes much in your calculation and conclusions.
Laundry machines don't run on standard circuits in the US. The standard power outlet is 120V/20A. Washers and dryers run at 240V and whatever amperage they need in dedicated circuits.

All of those other devices you listed (portable electric heater, coffee machine, hairdryer - microwave too) tend to run at exactly 1500w and I've never seen one above it.
And I am talking specifically about 240V one phase devices, water heater in my bath is 18 kW, but it uses three phases supply, so it is in different category.
Yes, those also run on special/dedicated circuits in the US, though at 240V, 1ph. In the US, residences don't get 3ph, they get two 180degree opposed 120v legs for 240 between them. I like the flexibility of it.
 
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Averagesupernova

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Laundry machines don't run on standard circuits in the US. The standard power outlet is 120V/20A. Washers and dryers run at 240V and whatever amperage they need in dedicated circuits.
I sure haven't seen any washing machines that run on anything except 120V. The code requires a dedicated 20 amp circuit for it. Most of the time standard outlets in the U.S. are 15 amp. Seldom any 120V circuits in a residence are greater than this excpet the laundry, one (maybe 2) in the kitchen, and I believe one for the bathroom. Electric clothes dryers have a four prong 240/120 volt plug. The heating element runs on 240V and the motor runs on 120V. I would imagine a gas dryer would run on 120V but could require a dedicated circuit.
 

Borek

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mgb_phys

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That can be the reason. Standard here is 240V, so twice less amperage required.
You can take 13A from an Eu socket, so 240V*13A = 3.1KW
In the US you can pull 15A from a 110V socket so around 1600W

Which is why it's hard to get electric kettles in the states and they take forever to boil water, which is why they drink coffee instead of tea, like civilized countries.
 
http://www.coulombtech.com/press_releases/release_20091214.php" [Broken]
http://www.coulombtech.com/press_releases/release_20091207.php" [Broken]
.[/URL]
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17912_3-10220414-72.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20"
just read the above articles, and all these are tied back to taxpayers money (follow the links)

I found a GEM charger for $600 on ebay. at a couple thousand of these for the mall, plus wiring costs, it would take a lot of sales in product to cover that cost. at the residential vs commercial rates, at 20 minutes a charge, it would take quite a bit of sales to cover these costs.
what is the range of those things when you turn on the seat warmers, defrosters, stereo, or AC...not vert good

honda just settled their lawsuit because the "rated" 51 mpg hybred was actually closer to 31.
I don't believe that we, as consumers, are getting the true "apple to apples" information
chevy was saying the volt got ~230mpg with creative math.

not cost effective yet

dr
 
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sophiecentaur

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Also, the power company is required by law to provide you with a service to your house that meets any reasonable request. What is "reasonable" is defined by the law. So if a 400A service doesn't currently fit the definiton, the law could always be changed to occommodate this.
Hang on a bit. Just changing the Law isn't suddenly going to magic a power distribution network that can handle everyone's extra vehicle charging loads. (Looking at the future, when 'everyone' is electric.)
Just think of the huge energy distribution system represented by the supplies to petrol stations and replacing a significant proportion of that with power via electrical cables. It's do-able, of course, but it will require a huge capital investment and needs some serious planning to handle peak loads. This will be particularly true when these new fast charging batteries start to come on stream and everyone demands a 2 minute top-up, whether at home or at the station down the road.
 

mheslep

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Hang on a bit. Just changing the Law isn't suddenly going to magic a power distribution network that can handle everyone's extra vehicle charging loads. (Looking at the future, when 'everyone' is electric.)
Just think of the huge energy distribution system represented by the supplies to petrol stations and replacing a significant proportion of that with power via electrical cables. It's do-able, of course, but it will require a huge capital investment
The energy distribution system is already in place.

ScienceDaily (Dec. 14, 2006) — If all the cars and light trucks in the nation switched from oil to electrons, idle capacity in the existing electric power system could generate most of the electricity consumed by plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. A new study for the Department of Energy finds that "off-peak" electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel 84 percent of the country's 220 million vehicles if they were plug-in hybrid electrics....
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1211221149.htm


sophiecenta said:
and needs some serious planning to handle peak loads. This will be particularly true when these new fast charging batteries start to come on stream and everyone demands a 2 minute top-up, whether at home or at the station down the road.
Yes that is about power and at that level I agree not only is it not available now, it is never going to happen. Ubiquitous 2 minute top ups would mean a small 50MW power plant that runs only in bursts, placed on every corner, useable by every driver.
 
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sophiecentaur

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It is true that the main problem I foresee is that of Power, rather than Energy distribution.
I wonder whether a 'small', 50MW electrical power generating unit is efficient enough to cause less pollution than the original petrol powered vehicles. I thought the whole point of going electrical was to locate the energy conversion (generators) in suitable plces and to make them very efficient.
In any case, my point about needing enhanced domestic supplies is relevant and the problem is not soluble by just changing the Law.
 
A new study for the Department of Energy finds that "off-peak" electricity production

so as long as we are not charging during business hours it would handle it.
so you could charge easily at the mall. just have to do it at 2:00 in the morning...lol

dr
 
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...

I wonder whether a 'small', 50MW electrical power generating unit is efficient enough to cause less pollution than the original petrol powered vehicles. ...
I think this is a very interesting question - has this been discussed here or elsewhere? (trying not to hijack this thread...

edit - I recall mheslep (?) having alot to say on this (?) maybe somewhere in the 20 pages of 'fuel saving thread' or was it somewhere else? There was alot about practical comparisons of miles per gallon and kW-hr.
 
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sophiecentaur

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It would be interesting to know.
Certainly, the Great British Public (and other groups) seem to think that Electricity is, somehow, both cost-free and pollution-free.
Any new form of transport is bound to have environmental costs, one way or another.
 

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