Charge electric car from dryer plug?

[OmCheeto]

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/battery-material-0311.html", though the point of this thread has been that fast charge batteries won't do you much good as the charging infrastructure required is impractical.

Using their new processing technique, the two went on to make a small battery that could be fully charged or discharged in 10 to 20 seconds...

Holy Mary mother of Merry Chistmas everyone that's fast!

hmmmm... being that I used to personally lug around http://www.brighthub.com/engineering/marine/articles/23761.aspx", I don't see that an 8 minute charge time every 200 miles is much of a problem anymore.

With a second charging plug in the vehicle for low power needs or course. I mean really, who goes home or to work and stays less than 8 minutes?

 

[mheslep]

Which just made me thinking - what if the charging station has its own battery of batteries, which are charged all the time with more or less constant current? Sure, that means lower efficiency, at the same time it means almost constant load.

Possible, but there's some still some serious drawbacks. A battery backed charging point becomes expensive and thus it can't be distributed every few meters as can be simple 4kW charging points using only the grid. Second, handling 200-500KW electric cables is problematic - probably can't be left to the vehicle operator. Third the charging circuitry and mechanical interface on the vehicle side also has to become capable of handling that charge rate and thus it becomes more expensive.

Edit: One solution to this problem was worked out a hundred years ago, at least on small scales for a commercial fleet: NY taxis used a battery exchange system, originated by the electric trolley operators - on your way in two minutes.

 

[OmCheeto]

Second, handling 200-500KW electric cables is problematic - probably can't be left to the vehicle operator.

That's why they still won't let us http://www.capitalistchicks.com/?q=node/223", like everyone else.

But I guess that means we're a bit further ahead in infrastructure than the rest of the nation.

Trainer: Do not touch those shiny metal bits there. Got it?
Tron pumper trainee: Yes boss.
Trainer: And don't pull this trigger till its latched. Got it?
Tron pumper trainee: Yes boss.
Trainer: Ok. You're ready. Go pump some trons.
Trained tron pumper: Yes boss.

 

[mheslep]

energy consumed: 5 kwh(ref: http://www.evalbum.com/1137")

That's about 0.2 kWh/mile, a bit optimistic.

Here's some EV efficiencies by vehicle type:
Vehicle Class [kWh/mile]
Compact sedan 0.26
Mid-size sedan 0.30
Mid-size SUV 0.38
Full-size SUV 0.46
from Table 1, Page 9 here
http://energytech.pnl.gov/publications/pdf/PHEV_Feasibility_Analysis_Part1.pdf

 

[OmCheeto]

That's about 0.2 kWh/mile, a bit optimistic.

Here's some EV efficiencies by vehicle type:
Vehicle Class [kWh/mile]
Compact sedan 0.26
Mid-size sedan 0.30
Mid-size SUV 0.38
Full-size SUV 0.46
from Table 1, Page 9 here
http://energytech.pnl.gov/publications/pdf/PHEV_Feasibility_Analysis_Part1.pdf

For most people maybe.

my daily commute to and from work

I average 23.4 mph.

I'm afraid the dryer plug will be perfect for my needs. The rest of you will have to fend for yourselves.

And although they used the word "regeneration" once, the authors of your sited paper didn't really expand on it.

I probably should have not been so coy in hiding the fact that chargecar.org thinks I'll be able to recoup 32% of my energy with their dumb system. Hence my optimistic number.


Vehicle Class_____kWh/mile_______kWh/m with 32% regen
Compact sedan______0.26__________0.18
Mid-size sedan_____0.30__________0.20
Mid-size SUV_______0.38__________0.26
Full-size SUV______0.46__________0.31

The unfortunate economic and technologically limited facts of the past are fortunately slipping away faster than I can keep up. Which of course, makes me very happy.

 

[russ_watters]

Your post brought up something I had forgotten. A furnace such as gas or propane would require a dedicated 120V 20A circuit also. Your heat is from propane, I assume you mean the heat for the dryer right?

Well everything that makes heat is except the dishwasher - dryer, water heater, range/oven and furnace. My furnace is actually 120/15, which is all it needs for a >1hp fan for the air circulation and a much smaller one for the combustion air. My only 240V circuit is my condensing unit, which is 40A.

 

[LURCH]

Which just made me thinking - what if the charging station has its own battery of batteries, which are charged all the time with more or less constant current? Sure, that means lower efficiency, at the same time it means almost constant load.

This is exactly the infrastructure I envisioned ever since reading about the work being done at MIT on a so-called "synthetic battery," which is actually a capacitor capable of storing as much electricity as a lithium ion battery of the same size. Fueling stations would have a large capacitor underground, analogous to the storage tanks they currently use to hold petroleum fuel. These storage capacitors would continually "sip" from the utility lines, and discharge rapidly into vehicles. Of course, this rapid discharge would require some fairly substantial cables, but I don't think they would need to be any larger than the hoses currently used to pump gasoline.

Of course, these capacitors are not yet available, and storing a large battery underground does bring up some environmental concerns. However, I don't think these concerns are any greater than those associated with storing petroleum fuels the ground.

 

[mgb_phys]

Of course, these capacitors are not yet available, and storing a large battery underground does bring up some environmental concerns.

Today for multi-MW short term storage, especially if you can bury them underground you would probably look at flywheels.
You can buy 5MW flywheel backup systems off the shelf, they are used for data centers because they have higher power density than batteries and can supply very high peak power levels.

 

[LURCH]

Today for multi-MW short term storage, especially if you can bury them underground you would probably look at flywheels.
You can buy 5MW flywheel backup systems off the shelf, they are used for data centers because they have higher power density than batteries and can supply very high peak power levels.

Now there is an option I had never considered.

 

[rbj]

That's why they still won't let us http://www.capitalistchicks.com/?q=node/223", like everyone else.

everyone but NuJoiseyans. no self-serve in NJ.

 

[dr dodge]

what can we infer about people from oregon and jersy?

hhmmmm...

dr

 

[mgb_phys]

what can we infer about people from oregon and jersy?

They have elected representatives who are both concerned for their welfare and aware of the dangers of volatile hydrocarbons?

 

[Borek]

They have elected representatives

I think it would be wise to stop here.

 

[dr dodge]

elected officials with concern?
isn't that like military intellegence?

lol (and no offence ment to anyone)

dr

 

[OmCheeto]

They have elected representatives who are both concerned for their welfare and aware of the dangers of volatile hydrocarbons?

Actually, it was our idea.

In 1982, Oregon voters rejected a ballot measure sponsored by the service station owners, which would have legalized self-service gas.

It never stops raining here you know.

Plus, it keeps our 18 year olds busy.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Having used self service only for decades in the UK, it was refreshing to be served at the pumps by someone in the 'backwoods' of New Hampshire, recently. Where would the movies have been without all those scenes where the couple drive into the gas station and we wonder whether the attendant will spot that they're escaped villains as he cleans their windshield - then he gets shot and they drive off leaving the hose spraying petrol all over the forecourt. I bet the 'officials' didn't think of that scenario in their zeal for safety! That wouldn't happen in self service.
I also got to use a non-automatic pump for the first time in 45 years of driving. I stood like a lemon until I realized you have to move the lever over durrr.