- #106
atyy
Science Advisor
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russ_watters said:Was that directed at me? I'm not sure what the purpose of that is.
Not specifically.
russ_watters said:Was that directed at me? I'm not sure what the purpose of that is.
Maximilian said:That means you use the word "error" simply for something very different and irrelevant here.
Maximilian said:Of course, there is a measurement error.
Maximilian said:For the best theory, the one which is not yet falsified, you have no information about how accurate it is.
Maximilian said:this is nice playing with words
Maximilian said:A theory is either true or false
Maximilian said:Not all theories are approximations, but those we have today are.
Maximilian said:This is not expected to be true forever.
But we are not talking about such situations. We are talking about classical situations where it is demonstrably not wrong.atyy said:Applied to such situations, Newtonian mechanics is not just slightly wrong: it is totally wrong
Ok, then rather than stating, I'll ask: what is your point? Yes, there are situations where Newtonian mechanics performs very poorly (and of course others where it performs quite well). So what?atyy said:Here is an example from Rindler: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0198567324/?tag=pfamazon01-20 (p108)
"Applied to such situations, Newtonian mechanics is not just slightly wrong: it is totally wrong."
Dale said:But we are not talking about such situations. We are talking about classical situations where it is demonstrably not wrong.
I didn't, except to respond to someone else talking about approximations. I still don't understand the reasoning that "approximation" is the same as "wrong". I think that it is incorrect reasoning, and I have asked a couple of times for people to justify it, but nobody has. I don't think that it is justifiable because in the classical limit Newtonian physics and relativity are approximately equal and both are experimentally validated. So "approximation" is not the same as "wrong".atyy said:Then why use word "approximation"?
Dale said:I didn't, except to respond to someone else talking about approximations. I still don't understand the reasoning that "approximation" is the same as "wrong". I think that it is incorrect reasoning, and I have asked a couple of times for people to justify it, but nobody has. I don't think that it is justifiable because in the classical limit Newtonian physics and relativity are approximately equal and both are experimentally validated. So "approximation" is not the same as "wrong".
Conventions do matter, and why they matter has been nicely described in Orwell's 1984. Of course, I see no politics here. But the point of Newspeak is something which can appear in changing language conventions in physics too. And the point is that some unwanted theories are left without words to talk about them, because the words normally used to talk about them have been redefined.russ_watters said:I suppose definitions are conventions, so people can agree or agree to disagree. For all this arguing it is tough to see why this matters; why you couldn't just say "I understand how the words are being used but prefer a different way" and leave it at that?
Maybe your issue is a philosophical issue with the goal of science? The search for an ultimate Truth? [edit: per your previous post, it appears so] Perhaps what you may be missing is that even if scientists believe they are searching for an absolute Truth, that belief is of no relevance. Why? Because it is inherently impossible to know if they've found it. So it doesn't alter the practical assumption that all theories are wrong. Which - again - means you may as well use "wrong" in a relative sense so that the word is useful. Otherwise a statement like "that theory is wrong" is pointless/redundant.
The point is that there exists a well-defined notion, truth, and the point is that Newtonian mechanics is not true. There is a difference. Performing badly is a criterion for the theory being false. But there are other criteria for this. GR is not performing poorly. But it is nonetheless false. It produces singularities, and theories with singularities are wrong too, independent of how nicely they perform. Reducing the notion of truth from science, or replacing it with performing nicely in observations, has serious consequences for science itself. So, it makes it impossible to criticize GR as being wrong. There are regions, near singularities, where one may guess that it may perform poorly, but such regions are not in our Solar system, so we do not have to care. The search for quantum gravity is a loss of time, the guys would better improve computations in Newtonian theory.russ_watters said:Ok, then rather than stating, I'll ask: what is your point? Yes, there are situations where Newtonian mechanics performs very poorly (and of course others where it performs quite well). So what?
First, this is wrong. Then, you want science by majority decisions?PeterDonis said:No, it's not irrelevant, since it's what everyone in this discussion except you is talking about.
No. According to some theory, ##u=2\pi r##. I measure u and r for some circle and get agreement in the region of 1%. Does this tell me how accurate ##u=2\pi r## is? Obviously not. It tells only something about my measurement.PeterDonis said:I'm sorry, but you are not making sense. The difference between the theory's predictions and the actual data is information about how accurate the theory is.
No. I see the only difference between his "wronger" and my "greater error" in the words used to describe the same thing, and I accept this thing.PeterDonis said:Asimov wasn't playing with words. He meant exactly what he said. What he said is simply something that you are apparently unwilling to accept.
First, it is wrong that all theories are false. Only all our actual theories are false, for various reasons. Then, no, it does not make it useless at all. Because to say that a particular theory is false requires justification. (Which makes the difference to your "all theories are false".) Any particular justification why even our best theories are wrong point to a particular problem related with these theories. A problem which lead to attempts to solve it, finding a better theory which does not have this problem. And, even if this theory may have other problems, this will be an improvement.PeterDonis said:By your definition, all theories are false. Which makes your definition useless.
The basis is that one classical problem of all of the theories of the past as well as of our actual theories - that they are not universal - is close to being solved.PeterDonis said:Every theory we have ever had has been an approximation. On what basis would you expect some hypothetical future theory to not be?
What basis do you have for any such expectation?
It is a clearly wrong statement. Experiment is what has shown that classical mechanics is wrong in some settings. A theory can never prove another theory wrong. That is the job of experiments.atyy said:However, I would say it is not "SR, GR and Qm have shown that classical physics is wrong" that is wrong,
Orodruin said:It is a clearly wrong statement. Experiment is what has shown that classical mechanics is wrong in some settings. A theory can never prove another theory wrong. That is the job of experiments.
Besides, it is not what the insight is talking about. It is addressing the ”so it should not be used” issue. Discussing anything else here would seem off topic to me.
Orodruin said:It is a clearly wrong statement. Experiment is what has shown that classical mechanics is wrong in some settings. A theory can never prove another theory wrong. That is the job of experiments..
Any talk of a ”true” theory is useless and ultimately not constructive or scientific as you can never prove that your theory is ”true” in some deeper meaning. Thus, talking about it in that manner is just philosophy. Again, this is not what the insight article is about and you are therefore continuing to veer off topic.Maximilian said:You seem to prefer another theory of truth, one where to talk about truth is useless, because we have no criterion of truth so that we appear unable to prove that our statements are true.
It is not clear what part you disagree with. If a theory can prove another theory wrong, then many crackpots will be very very happy, but it is not how science works. Newtonian mechanics was proven to make faulty predictions long before relativity and QM came along. This is why relativity and QM were developed. This is a fundamental corner stone in empirical science so I don’t think you can brush it off by saying that it is splitting hairs. What determines whether a theory is applicable in a scenario is if it accurately describes that scenario or not.atyy said:I disagree. It is perfectly standard English, and you are splitting hairs.
This is different, this is a theory proving itself logically inconsistent. Not a new theory proving an old one wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing.atyy said:That is wrong. A theory can prove another theory wrong. For example, if a theory is found to be logically incoherent, then it is wrong by virtue of theory alone.
Maximilian said:The theory which obtains here such a status is a standard theory of truth,
Maximilian said:The point is that there exists a well-defined notion, truth
Maximilian said:Then, you want science by majority decisions?
Maximilian said:I see the only difference between his "wronger" and my "greater error" in the words used to describe the same thing
Maximilian said:it is wrong that all theories are false. Only all our actual theories are false
Maximilian said:to say that a particular theory is false requires justification
Maximilian said:one classical problem of all of the theories of the past as well as of our actual theories - that they are not universal - is close to being solved
Can you provide examples of non-actual theories that are true?Maximilian said:First, it is wrong that all theories are false. Only all our actual theories are false, for various reasons.
Means all the postings will be deleted again, even if they are about important things about philosophy of science, which have serious consequences for fundamental physics, because what is criticized would completely destroy the justification for studying TOE or QG?PeterDonis said:This is philosophy, not physics. Philosophy is off topic in this forum.
I treat true and false, right and wrong as binary categories. To express what Asimov means with "wronger", which is a continuous scale, I use different words, namely the word "error", which can be greater or smaller. "Wrong" means the error is greater than zero.PeterDonis said:What do you mean by "my greater error"? You have been treating "wrong" as a binary category. Asimov isn't.
For a theory to be true, it has to be true universally. (A "partially true" theory is, similar to "wronger", inaccurate playing with words.) The established candidates for this are only two, GR and QT.PeterDonis said:Okay, then please justify the claim I just quoted above, that "all our actual theories are false".
The claim is not that strong. And the basis is, very simple, that there is even an established abbreviation for a theory which is universal, namely TOE. TOE denotes a research program, and while we cannot be sure that it will be successfully finished, and while the first attempt, string theory, clearly fails, there is at least a reasonable hope that some other proposal may be successful, and that this success may be reached during the time of my life.PeterDonis said:It is? What is your basis for this extremely strong claim?
Out of the existing theories, one can develop approximate theories which explicitly restrict their domain of applicability as well as the the accuracy of their predictions. Some of them may be true. Following standard (Popperian) scientific methodology we cannot prove they will be true even if they are true, moreover, they have much less empirical content, so it is not really a good idea to develop them in detail.Asymptotic said:Can you provide examples of non-actual theories that are true?
I would not have started this discussion if the title would have been "The 'classical mechanics should not be used' fallacy". The only objection imaginable would have been the question where you have seen such a fallacy and why would one think that such a crank idea is worth to be discussed in a science forum.Orodruin said:Besides, it is not what the insight is talking about. It is addressing the ”so it should not be used” issue. Discussing anything else here would seem off topic to me.
No, this is just wrong (demonstrably). The justification for studying quantum gravity is that we expect that GR and quantum mechanics to break down in particular limits. A theory of everything is a different matter, you can never say that you have demonstrably found it. At most you can have an internally consistent theory that is compatible with all data that is available.Maximilian said:because what is criticized would completely destroy the justification for studying TOE or QG?
So, in other words, you are using a different nomenclature than others have used in this thread and in linked references. That is no basis for a discussion.Maximilian said:I use different words
Yes it is.Maximilian said:The claim is not that strong.
No it doesn't. Not unless you are using a different meaning for the word "research program" as well.Maximilian said:TOE denotes a research program
What do you base this on. Again, please provide references because this is just pure speculation. You do realize that many people thought everything had been discovered in the early 20th century, right?Maximilian said:there is at least a reasonable hope that some other proposal may be successful, and that this success may be reached during the time of my life.
(My emphasis) This is very very different from attaining a theory with some higher form of "truth". I hope you see the difference.Maximilian said:But not because it is not universal. It will be universal, in the sense that it would cover all particles, fields, forces, all what is covered by physics, all what we have observed.
But that is not how people stating it puts it. The argument is typically presented in the manner described in the text. If you have not read the text and/or not understood it, I do not think you should enter the discussion after just reading the title. To answer your second sentence: If you had been around for any amount of time you would have realized that this is indeed a fallacy that appears in new posters from time to time. The people suffering from it indeed think it worth discussing in a science forum, which is exactly why the insight was written in the first place so that it does not have to be explained in thread after thread! Instead, you have decided (after not having been here actively) to go off on the wording in the title without actually reading/understanding what the insight is about. Yes, I would therefore expect this part of the conversation to be deleted.Maximilian said:I would not have started this discussion if the title would have been "The 'classical mechanics should not be used' fallacy". The only objection imaginable would have been the question where you have seen such a fallacy and why would one think that such a crank idea is worth to be discussed in a science forum.
No, your case is not finished because your argument is not valid. Again, this is how the fallacy presents itself. Instead of reading and understanding this, you have chosen to start a strawman argument, which is never a good thing to do.Maximilian said:A simple "ok, the title is misleading, it should have been 'classical mechanics should not be used fallacy', do you want to argue that it really should not be used?", would have been sufficient, I would have answered "Of course not, the title is indeed heavily misleading, that's all." Case finished.
Orodruin said:But that is not how people stating it puts it. The argument is typically presented in the manner described in the text. If you have not read the text and/or not understood it, I do not think you should enter the discussion after just reading the title.
Asymptotic said:Can you provide examples of non-actual theories that are true?
Maximilian said:Out of the existing theories, one can develop approximate theories which explicitly restrict their domain of applicability as well as the the accuracy of their predictions. Some of them may be true. Following standard (Popperian) scientific methodology we cannot prove they will be true even if they are true, moreover, they have much less empirical content, so it is not really a good idea to develop them in detail.
Asymptotic said:Quite a flock of words, but no examples. Please provide an example of a true, non-actual theory.
And why would this be a reason to develop some completely unnecessary theory of QG? It would not be better than GR and QT, because everything we can test is covered either by GR or by QT. Some minor issues where both are necessary are covered by QFT on curved background. Which is internally inconsistent, but once it makes all the accurate predictions, it is not wrong too. So, everything is fine.Orodruin said:No, this is just wrong (demonstrably). The justification for studying quantum gravity is that we expect that GR and quantum mechanics to break down in particular limits.
I use the standard meaning of the words, as established over centuries. This standard meaning tells, uniquely, that classical mechanics is wrong, and this was established by the first experiment which has experimentally falsified classical mechanics.Orodruin said:So, in other words, you are using a different nomenclature than others have used in this thread and in linked references. That is no basis for a discussion.
We have the SM of particle physics, and actually nothing in particle physics is in contradiction to the SM. We have GR, and a model of cosmology in agreement with GR. Dark energy may be described by the cosmological term of GR, dark matter with a simple massive scalar field not interacting with other fields, so thatOrodruin said:What do you base this on. Again, please provide references because this is just pure speculation. You do realize that many people thought everything had been discovered in the early 20th century, right?
I do not care about "higher forms of truth" (religious?) at all. What I care about is the standard, everyday form of truth, which rejects something as false if it is falsified by observation, internally inconsistent, or in conflict with other things considered to be true. The definition is the simple straightforward correspondence to reality. I recognize very well that there may be theories which are consistent and compatible with everything we have observed up to now but are nonetheless wrong, so that we can never be sure that we have found the truth, even if in reality we have found it. This does not make truth something higher, it is simply a consequence of our very restricted human abilities to identify false theories as false.Orodruin said:(My emphasis) This is very very different from attaining a theory with some higher form of "truth". I hope you see the difference.
I have read the text and understood it. It does not prove at all what is claimed in the title '"Classical Physics Is Wrong" Fallacy'. Instead, it created a strawman "There is somehow a notion that SR, GR, and QM have shown that classical physics is wrong, and so, it shouldn’t be used." and then attacked and killed the "it shouldn’t be used" part of it. I criticize this. (If I had read somewhere only the title, I would have ignored it as I ignore the usual "logical errors made by Einstien" nonsense, but given that I don't think that PF insights is a place for such nonsense, I have taken a look at it.)Orodruin said:But that is not how people stating it puts it. The argument is typically presented in the manner described in the text. If you have not read the text and/or not understood it, I do not think you should enter the discussion after just reading the title.
Maybe, ok. Then what I have named "the only objection imaginable" would be wrong or weak. And the suggestion to name the insight appropriately, '"Classical Physics should not be used because it is wrong" fallacy' remains.Orodruin said:To answer your second sentence: If you had been around for any amount of time you would have realized that this is indeed a fallacy that appears in new posters from time to time.
If a fallacy hides itself behind a true statement, this does not make the true statement a fallacy.Orodruin said:No, your case is not finished because your argument is not valid. Again, this is how the fallacy presents itself. Instead of reading and understanding this, you have chosen to start a strawman argument, which is never a good thing to do.
The "No True Scotsman" fallacy.Maximilian said:I use the standard meaning of the words, as established over centuries
And inherently impossible to ever know if we've found one. Making a binary definition of "wrong" useless from a practical standpoint.atyy said:Think about it this way. We cannot say that all possible theories are false, because we cannot rule out that the universe is finite and discrete. If it is finite and discrete, then it is conceivable that there is a theory of everything that is perfectly accurate.
The existence of something being conceivable is a very different statement from the statement of existence.atyy said:We cannot say that all possible theories are false, because we cannot rule out that the universe is finite and discrete. If it is finite and discrete, then it is conceivable that there is a theory of everything that is perfectly accurate.
That it is not testable now does not mean that it is a priori untestable.Maximilian said:And why would this be a reason to develop some completely unnecessary theory of QG? It would not be better than GR and QT, because everything we can test is covered either by GR or by QT.
As a particle physicist I can tell you that this is factually wrong. I am not going to comment on the other fields that I am not working in.Maximilian said:We have the SM of particle physics, and actually nothing in particle physics is in contradiction to the SM
Yes you are, even if you are not realising it. Science does not care about "truth" in the way you are presenting it. The way you are presenting it is very close to an idealised religious view.Maximilian said:I do not care about "higher forms of truth" (religious?) at all.
In the case of your underlying "truth", no. These discussions cannot be settled by experiment and therefore do not belong in empirical sciences. If you want a scientific discussion you should, in principle, in the end (when all predictions have been made) go out and measure something to determine who was right. There is a reason we typically do not engage in philosophic discussions here.Maximilian said:Please note also that I would not have a problem with a philosophical discussion about various theories of truth, where the (classical and Popperian) correspondence theory of truth is questioned, and various alternatives like relative theories or consent theories of truth are defended. There are reasonable, scientific ways to discuss such things.
Sure, such an error exists, but if the error in the approximation is smaller than the experimental precision then neither theory is wrong. In other words, what determines whether a theory is wrong is disagreement with experiment, not disagreement with another theory. The error discussed here is therefore not directly relevant to the validity of a theory.atyy said:An approximation is wrong in the sense that an approximation contains an error.
Of course, there will be always some minor disagreements. But is there anything serious enough that one can reasonably say the SM has been falsified by observation?Orodruin said:As a particle physicist I can tell you that this is factually wrong.
I am not going to comment on the other fields that I am not working in.
It is standard correspondence theory of truth, as, for example, defended by Popper.Orodruin said:Yes you are, even if you are not realising it. Science does not care about "truth" in the way you are presenting it. The way you are presenting it is very close to an idealised religious view.
Discussions about the scientific method are, of course, not empirical science themselves. Which is a triviality. (Ok, you can propose different alternative scientific methods, leave different groups of scientists developing science following them, and compare the results. But this is not really what is done in discussions about the scientific method.)Orodruin said:In the case of your underlying "truth", no. These discussions cannot be settled by experiment and therefore do not belong in empirical sciences.
The obvious reason is that such discussions are unwanted here and will be simply deleted. Beyond this, there is no good reason to avoid in a scientific forum discussions about the scientific method, and discussions about the scientific method are inherently not discussions about particular scientific theories, but about methods to find and evaluate them.Orodruin said:If you want a scientific discussion you should, in principle, in the end (when all predictions have been made) go out and measure something to determine who was right. There is a reason we typically do not engage in philosophic discussions here.
Yes, but in the context of the discussion the question which theory is true was settled by experiments a century ago, and no longer open. Today we already know that it is classical mechanics which is wrong, and therefore all for what it remains possibly useful is to compute approximations for better theories. SimilarlyDale said:Sure, such an error exists, but if the error in the approximation is smaller than the experimental precision then neither theory is wrong. In other words, what determines whether a theory is wrong is disagreement with experiment, not disagreement with another theory. The error discussed here is therefore not directly relevant to the validity of a theory.
This was the purpose for Einstein to show that his theories have a classical limit, or later for the correspondence principle in quantum theory. Once it was clarified in this way that former experiments which supported classical theory were not in contradiction with the new theories, this issue was settled. Today it is irrelevant. Today we know that classical mechanics is wrong and GR/SM are better, and the only justification for using classical mechanics is to use it as an approximation for these better theories.Dale said:You have the purpose of this calculation backwards. The purpose of computing the difference between Newtonian mechanics and relativity in the classical domain is to establish the validity of relativity. Newtonian mechanics is already validated by experiments in that domain, and therefore relativity must show that any disagreements between it and Newtonian mechanics are less than the experimental precision.
Neutrino masses. Neutrinos are massless in the standard model but need to be massive in order to accommodate neutrino oscillations, an observed phenomenon. Of course, this does not stop us from using the standard model whenever neutrino masses can be ignored, which is most of the time.Maximilian said:Of course, there will be always some minor disagreements. But is there anything serious enough that one can reasonably say the SM has been falsified by observation?
Maximilian said:Means all the postings will be deleted again, even if they are about important things about philosophy of science
Maximilian said:what is criticized would completely destroy the justification for studying TOE or QG?
Maximilian said:I treat true and false, right and wrong as binary categories.
No, the context for this discussion is in the classical domain where (tautologically) classical mechanics is right as has been validated by a multitude of experimental data. This is precisely the point of the article which you seem to be missing.Maximilian said:Yes, but in the context of the discussion the question which theory is true was settled by experiments a century ago, and no longer open. Today we already know that it is classical mechanics which is wrong,
No, classical mechanics remains as right today as it was in the 1800’s. All of the evidence that validated it then still validates it today. None of those experimental confirmations have gone away.Maximilian said:Today we know that classical mechanics is wrong and GR/SM are better,
You may not recognize it, but this is a pretty severe problem with your approach. Suppose that tomorrow we discover incontrovertible experimental evidence contradicting GR/SM in a previously untested domain. According to you, they would then be “wrong” in a binary sense.Maximilian said:Today we know that classical mechanics is wrong and GR/SM are better, and the only justification for using classical mechanics is to use it as an approximation for these better theories
Dale said:No, the context for this discussion is in the classical domain where (tautologically) classical mechanics is right as has been validated by a multitude of experimental data. This is precisely the point of the article which you seem to be missing.
Orodruin said:Besides, it is not what the insight is talking about. It is addressing the ”so it should not be used” issue. Discussing anything else here would seem off topic to me.
Again, you are making the unjustified “approximation” means “wrong” claim. In the classical domain the experimental evidence validates Newtonian mechanics.atyy said:Newtonian physics is only an approximation to the "true or truer theory of reality", and is still wrong