Clausius inequality and irreversible heat transfer

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the Clausius inequality and its implications for irreversible heat transfer. Participants explore the definitions and applications of the inequality, particularly in relation to entropy and reversible versus irreversible processes.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the Clausius inequality, specifically the assertion that irreversible heat transfer is less than or equal to that of a reversible process.
  • Another participant clarifies that the quantity dS should be defined as the ratio of reversibly exchanged heat to temperature, suggesting a misunderstanding in the initial post.
  • A subsequent post acknowledges the correction but reiterates the original claim with a slight adjustment in notation.
  • Another participant challenges the simplification of the inequality, arguing that the expression Qi/T>0 is incorrect in the context of irreversible processes and emphasizes the importance of considering the complete cycle.
  • One participant further elaborates that the change in entropy must use reversible heat flow and that the total change in entropy during an irreversible process will be greater than zero, highlighting the need for careful calculations involving both the system and surroundings.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the correct interpretation and application of the Clausius inequality, with multiple competing views on the definitions and implications of entropy in irreversible processes.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the definitions and assumptions made by participants, particularly regarding the treatment of irreversible processes and the conditions under which the Clausius inequality is applied.

Hobold
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I don't seem to understand Clausius inequality at all. Really. It was deduced to me that the Clausius inequality is given by

dS = \frac{\delta Q_i}{T} > 0

where Q_i is the irreversible heat transferred to a system. Though I cannot find a way to prove an assertion my teacher said: through Clausius inequality, the irreversible heat to be transferred is lower or equal than through a reversible process.

It really doesn't make any sense to me, can anyone explain?
 
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The quantity dS is defined as the ratio of the reversibly exchanged heat to the temperature. Just the opposite way you defined it.
 
Yeah, that's right, I'm sorry. I meant by Clausius inequality

\frac{Q_i}{T} > 0
 
Clausius's theorem applies to a closed evolution. Just writing Qi/T>0 is simply wrong. Consider an irreversible engine and focus on the released heat. You easily obtain Qi/T<0. However, if you take into account the complete cycle you get sum (Q/T)<0 (I'm sorry, I know nothing about latex)
 
Hobold said:
I don't seem to understand Clausius inequality at all. Really. It was deduced to me that the Clausius inequality is given by

dS = \frac{\delta Q_i}{T} &gt; 0
This is incorrect. This is not the definition of change in entropy. The change in entropy is uses the reversible heat flow:

dS = \frac{\delta Q_{rev}}{T}

The change in entropy referred to in the Clausius inequality is the total change in entropy of the system and surroundings during a process. You must use the reversible heat flow for the system and surroundings.

Where the process is irreversible, the total change in entropy will be greater than 0. In order to do the calculation, you must determine the integral of dS for the system on the reversible path between the initial and final states of the system. Then you must do the same for the surroundings.

AM
 

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